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________________________________
From: Cor Nouws <oolst@nouenoff.nl>
To: users@libreoffice.org
Sent: Sun, 29 May, 2011 19:53:44
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Trivia Question

Hi,

timi@iafrica.com wrote (27-05-11 19:27)

Any chance that someone in the COMMUNITY (With or
without the capital "c") can solve why Impress loses all it's links (paths) to
MP3 audio files
using "interact play sound".....

Well, must be a bug. Already found by you, or someone else, in bugzilla?
Is it this one
  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36286
  (specific with save as ppt) ?

Anyway, here is a short lik to the query for Impress + link OR MP3 OR sound:
http://bit.ly/ljp6Wc

Quite obviously I can't use Impress for serious business so I guess my question
is purely
academic?

Well, if playing MP3 with your presentations is key to the work you are doing,
then indeed that is a nasty problem.
Pls give some more information.

Thanks,
Cor

Hi :slight_smile:
I think the problem is more like this
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35185

There are mp3 sound-files that are kept in a folder on the machine. Some of the
slides have links to some of those sound-files so that when the speaker icons
are clicked the sound plays. However when the presentation is saved as either
ppt, pps or odp and then re-opened none of the links work, they are all broken.

I think the problem happens in Windows with all versions of LO but i seem to
remember it's not so bad with Ubuntu. I'm trying to dig out some of Timi's
previous posts about all this.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi Cor,

Well, some weeks (ago?) I've seen passing some discussion about this
(not followed details).

The devil is in the detail :-))

But to me it looks as a misinterpretation.
- yes, support contracts are important, because also that generates
revenues for the companies sponsoring developers of LibreOffice;
- no, a support contract will not in general guarantee 'enterprise
stability', because... what ís 'enterprise stability'?

How about : "Not making the product any less functional than how it was
when the project behind the product was taken over with much hue and cry
about how the Foundation "will protect past investments by building on
the solid achievements of our first decade...". Users and companies who
are persuaded to switch from OOo to LibO are entitled to expect that the
product not be less functional than it was when under different
stewardship. I'm not saying it has to be perfect, no software is, but if
you are used to using Product A with a given functionality framework,
and then someone comes along and says "Join our merry band, we will
protect the previous investment made in Product A with our Product B",
then it is legitimate to expect that functionality framework to continue
to provide as broad a spectrum as possible. Anything less, and the new
group has failed in its mission and its duty to protect that "past
investment".

I was one of the first to follow from OOo, and made a significant
donation when the Foundation started its fundraising, but that is not
what I'm concerned about the most. I still believe that it can be a good
product, but I have my sincere doubts about it being "enterprise ready"
and am not afraid to be honest and say/write so. It doesn't make me less
of an enthusiast, just that I am honest enough with regard to the state
of the project to qualify my statements in relation to the use of
LibreOffice as a business tool.

IMO the initial remark from Michael Meeks was to indicate that when you
want to be rather sure (...) that specific fixes are done or features
realized, you are welcome to do it yourself, have someone doing it
(after all it is open source) or get a support contract that gives the
right for fixing an amount of issues.
So if an enterprise relies on specific features, it can simpley wait for
the moment that is happens ... but probably it is not the most logic
choice.

Which is what I said in my first sentence, that some bugs will be fixed
eventually at any rate, no matter what, just not necessarily within any
given timeframe.

Ultimately, it is not merely the remarks that Michael made, that I may,
or may not, have misinterpreted. As I mentioned, it transpires from
other mailing lists, the dev irc channel, the bug reports, the decisions
to consider any given bug as a stopper or not.

On the Foundation FAQ page, one can find this :

Q: What difference will The Document Foundation make to users of
LibreOffice?
not have and will not have a commercial product which receives
preferential treatment. We only have one focus - delivering the best
free office suite for our users - LibreOffice.

"our users" : who are they ? Individuals ? Businesses ? Charities ?
Educational and Training Institutions ? Their needs are different,
sometimes converging, at others diverging. The project needs to know how
to cater to those needs and listen to those who are in need. Telling
people to "get stuck in" isn't going to happen for the majority of use
cases where people just want to use the software - this is not a new
problem in the free software development world, we all know that there
are often far more casual users and non-coding contributors than actual
code contributors, so why don't we just face those facts. If the way
forward is to request monetary contributions for fixing bugs, let us be
honest about it. However, I know for certain that some developers do not
really like the idea of a "bug bounty" system, because it brings with it
an associated "perceived obligation" to produce a result and a
requirement by the project in general to manage more carefully how
developer resources are used, thereby taking the fun out of contributing
to a free software project. I can fully understand such a position, if I
were a developer working on LibreOffice in my spare time, or
occasionally just because I felt like it, I would probably adopt the
same approach.

Therein lies one of the conundrums for the LibreOffice project and the
Document Foundation : businesses want results, they want to be able to
use the product in a "business production environment", and they might
even be prepared to fork out some money for it (and I say might), but
only if in return there is some guarantee of a deliverable, a timescale
and clear development plan. An individual user might be less fussed
about it all and be prepared to either wait until XYZ bug gets fixed (or
not), or just put up with the status quo. The difference between
proprietary and open source software is that with an open source
project, users are led to believe that they can obtain what they want by
"contributing". All the "contributions" (be they financial or other) in
the world are not going to help if there is no clearly stated roadmap.
Referring people to the minutes of the ESC is like telling them to
parachute out of an aircraft into the desert and then find their own way
to the oasis - you get the parachute, but for the rest you are on your
own. Let us not forget those businesses which have already invested in
OOo, be it through migration deployments, or support contracts - today
they find themselves in the unenviable position of a product which has
essentially gone dead at least until Oracle decides what it really is
going to do with the shattered leftovers, and a new vibrant community
project that appears to be managed by a hydra, uncertain or hesitant to
clearly state its position with regard to how it sees the project
developing and how things are to be coordinated. It is no easy task and
I'm the first to admit that harmonising opinions, gathering momentum and
forging a clear way forward for the future takes time - however,
businesses, even more so than individual users, require security,
stability and reassurance - they do not want to be "left in the lurch" -
no sane budget, financial or technical manager would accept that risk.

If the project is not prepared to meet those needs head on then it must
state so clearly, and not mislead them into thinking that "one can leap
before one looks" (pun intended).

Alex

Alex,

Congratulations on your summary of the business issues surrounding LibO. Brilliantly put!

Half-Impressed (aka Un-Impressed).

Hello Alex,

In data 30 maggio 2011 alle ore 11:41:51, Alexander Thurgood <alex.thurgood@gmail.com> ha scritto:

Ultimately, it is not merely the remarks that Michael made, that I may,
or may not, have misinterpreted. As I mentioned, it transpires from
other mailing lists, the dev irc channel, the bug reports, the decisions
to consider any given bug as a stopper or not.

I've lurked this specific argument in the dev/steering discuss/French mailing lists when you were commenting Meeks's statement.

Now, I'm working with other people on this project:

http://www.mail-archive.com/projects@libreoffice.org/msg00241.html

During a lengthy and indeed very interesting discussion with Italo Vignoli, Andrea Pescetti and others in the Italian discuss mailing list (for people who knows Italian: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@it.libreoffice.org/msg00104.html ) , I finally wondered: will the relashionship between the Community LibO *product* and the commercially supported ones (Novell/Canonical/Red Hat/put-here-your-preferred-corporation) be like the relationship between Fedora Project Linux, a cutting edge and less stable version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, a very solid and corporate oriented linux distribution based on Fedora?

I haven't a sure answer yet, but Andrea Pescetti pointed me to these Meeks messages:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2011-May/011424.html
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2011-April/011153.html

and to the extremely important "Breathing Master" discussion here:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2011-May/thread.html

Those comments and discussions + yours + the relatively scarce news I know about the LibO/TDF new business model based on paid certification for support corporation, let me think that a Community Libo "cutting edge" product is here to stay and may be a part of that business model.

Well, *if* it's so, I'm simply not happy of such solution. It creates a viable open ecosystem around LibO, for sure, but undermines the proverbial rock solid stability I always experienced in OOo.

Just my 2 eurocents, of course. :wink:

Regards,

Gianluca

I am no longer a programmer, but as a former business programmer: Make ALL functions work as advertised!
I had to make every option work properly and "exactly" like it was wanted, or I get "bad news" from my bosses.
I even had to do such exact validation of input, I had to figure out every possible value that would be used as input for the entered fields. That is easy for things like date and time but not so easy with number values. But I was expected to have it completely working the first time it is use and every time it is used.

So we need to have a very stable package, and then need to have a cutting edge package off that, for those users who want to choose.

The issues with Impress that have been reported in the lists make me wonder about what is in the package that makes it work sometimes and not on others. Those type of on/off issues are hard to predict and test for. I know that there are people out there scratching their heads trying to figure out what is the problem area of the code that need to be fixed. But it will be fixed in due course.

I have not tried RC2, but I am told there are a lot of fixes and new stuff in that version. As a "cutting edge" product, we keep adding new and better features the product. As a "stable" product, people keep fixing the issues till everything that can be fixed is fixed "before" the new options are added. Most business models, that do not deal with money or critical data, tend to be somewhere in the middle between those two product development "styles".

As an Open Source software package, any business development team can do their own work to fix issues that come up with their use of the package. What I would like to see is a dialog between those business people and the people who are working on LibreOffice for TDF/LO. This would need to be a two way dialog that lets TDF know what issues are out there and what they have done [or want done], and then have TDF people respond about what is being done on their end. That way if there is a fix already made, the business people could get the revised code or maybe a compiled package with those issues fixed.

TDF/LO needs to be a part of the process so no matter how fixes the code, all users will benefit from those fixes. Also, with the constructive dialog between business development teams and TDF/LO development teams, it would be better in the long run for keeping good opinions about LibreOffice by the corporate/ business users.

Kracked Press,

What an excellent comment...

Business people will work with the development team... it's in our interests to do so!

For my tiny portion/contribution if I can assist anyone crack the Impress audio loss problem I
will provide a test bed for any fixes (within my scope) and will report back on all outcomes....
I'm also happy to feedback on any issues with Impress.... as I discover them in business use.

Great step in right direction!

Semi-Impressed (aka ........)

Hi :slight_smile:
My understanding is ...

That TDF does keep a list of bugs to be fixed and wish-list items. Triagers go
through and assign various values such as "easy" (or difficult), "critical" (or
"Low importance").

Anyone can go through the list and pick something to work on. Sometimes that
'anyone' is a business with paid developers, sometimes it might be an individual
that just loves the product and cares deeply about improving it or is interested
in clever or practical or elegant coding. Sometimes it might be a person
learning coding under a mentor. The anyone's (or their employees/contractors)
can usually expect some help and support from other devs if they want it,
especially if they intend to give the code to TDF.

Having written the code they can then choose to keep it secret and just try to
apply it to each new release (or new install) OR they can choose to give the
code to TDF so that it can go through quality control, alpha-testing,
beta-testing before being incorporated into the main product which all us users
can alpha & beta test if we choose. Typically this ends up covering a hugely
diverse range of real-world hardware in combinations that would have most
sensible lab-techs shuddering.

The advantage to business 'anyones' of giving the new code fixes to TDF is that
future releases of LO will already contain the fixes and they will have already
undergone testing against the new release. So the anyones don't have to
re-apply their coding and then just hope it still works or go through their own
quality testing against a limited number of machines.

During this whole process the list of bugs and wish-list items gets updated
tags.

As normal users we can choose whether to use the older stable releases such as
3.3.0 - 3.3.2 (at the moment) or go for development releases to help bug-test
the latest fixes and developments.

My understanding of Fedora is that it is the development/testing branch of
RedHat and that other projects keep an eye on what happens with Fedora in order
to see what programs and stuff might be worth exploring for themselves. Debian
has a testing and a development branch that are available separately from their
stable release. SliTaz has a "Cooking" and a "Stable" release. Most projects
seem to have an edition that is not quite considered stable yet but hopefully
will become the new stable version later. I happen to like the way Ubuntu
backports fixes to it's latest LTS release in a manner suggested by Kracked
Press. If LO had a sort-of LTS release in a similar way then it might help
business users too.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

No, because there isn't one, because there is no requirement or even
strong recommendation.

But of course there is certainly nothing wrong with buying a support
contract if you want one.

Hi Alex,

Alexander Thurgood wrote (30-05-11 11:41)

Well, some weeks (ago?) I've seen passing some discussion about this
(not followed details).

The devil is in the detail :-))
[...]

Thanks for finding those :wink:
I'm to occupied with obligations and (business) must-do's at the moment. Try to find time for a serious read, thought and reply on Wednesday.

Regards,
Cor

It's a common cultural problem in the OpenSource community. Everyone
thinks "they" deserve all software for free, but if you have a company
or business email address "you" should spend all of your money so that
they can continue to have free software. It doesn't matter what
OpenSource operating system or application/software package you are
using, this irrational response persists. I imagine it is even more
persistent in the LO world since they just cut free of "Sugar Daddy" and
now need a revenue source.

I actually laugh when I'm greeted with this mentality. "They" have no
idea if you are a one many shop or a Fortune 50 corporation. "They" all
think you can plunk down hundreds of thousands of dollars on a whim to
keep software coming to "them." I told many this would happen, and even
watched it happen about a decade ago. When the bulk of the community
switched from programmers to consumers. Since they aren't programmers,
they don't think programmers should be paid and have no idea how many
thousands of hours it takes to correctly design, develop, and TEST a
commercial grade application. All they know is that they expect
commercial grade software for free...thanks to Microsoft for
dramatically lowering the bar on what qualifies as "commercial grade
software." If, however, you tell them to show up at their Union/factory
job and work 60/hours per week for 6 months absolutely gratis, "they"
will unleash holy hell on you.

There was actually a fund raising bar thing on the libreoffice site when
the broke away. I don't see it now. You see, those people who "work
for" an OpenOffice project at the top don't work for free either.

and now need a revenue source.

I've never seen or noticed such an attitude - certainly not anything
nearly as pervasive or prevalent as you seem to by suggesting.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!
I am receiving 20 and more emails daily. I have tried many, many times to
unsubscribe with NO SUCCESS.
PLEASE give me an email, land line, snail mail address, or phone number
where I can UNSUBSCRIBE.

richard@hornick.us

Well, that attitude has been seen before by some people I know. "I get mine free, while you have to pay for yours" , is the mindset I see myself from time to time.

Open Source does cost. It costs people's time and effort, even if they provide it for free. Then there is the costs of the support system. I am not talking about paid consultants. I am talking about Domain names, hosting systems or accounts, servers and other physical needs to keep the TDF/LO web sites up and running. Then there is the fees to display at events and conventions. Then there is the marketing banners, brochures, pamphlets, handouts, etc., etc., that is part of the materials that are used for marketing at such an event.

Then there is the people who wants to produce DVDs to get to people who cannot download the package software, due to bandwidth issues or other constrants to their Internet usage. These people who make these DVDs have money tied up with DVD cases, Printable DVD media, Printing the DVD case covers and the inserted pamphlets, and how about buying a printer that can print on the printable DVD media. All these things cost money.

For TDF/LibreOffice, they wish to raise the need funds to provide for the money being spent for the physical costs of the services required for their web hosting needs, plus any marketing costs spent or will be spent marketing the product. Then there is the local people who make the DVDs. They need to help cover their costs in making the DVDs and the shipping costs to send it out to those who will need their DVD printing/shipping services.

Sure, there are people who volunteer their time and efforts programing/developing, marketing, and may other task involved with the creation and distribution of an Open Source software package. But there are things that cost money as well. There are businesses that have volunteered their people and money to help the cause of Open Source. But nothing is truly free. Somewhere it costs someone money. Time is money too.

If you want free software, you are "paying for it" by your time and efforts finding it, downloading it, maybe promoting it to your friends and family, supporting it in the email lists, or even donating some cash to it via its fundraising efforts.

FOR ME
I am a part of the North American Community DVD Project. I have donated space on my hosting account and "bought" a domain for its testing portal " http://libreoffice-na.us/ ". I have bought DVD cases, printable media, and a printer to print onto those printable media. I will be handing out many of these DVDs to local people, organizations, businesses, and government agencies - ALL out of my own fixed income "pocket". I am providing these things because I want to support TDF/LO in whatever ways I am able to. I no longer can help program/develop the software, since 3 strokes have wiped much of my skills.

Next, hopefully, the NA group will be working on shipping DVD out to people who cannot download the software themselves. I know of many people who cannot do this. Not even half of all households in the USA has broadband. Many cannot afford it, while others have no access to it, even if they have the money. So we hope to be able to get a system worked out where people can order the DVD online [some way] for the costs of the media and the shipping, etc., and maybe a little profit that could go into a regional marketing fund and some to go into the International marketing fund.

SO
there are people out there who feel that they will keep getting their open source software free, while others keep paying for it, for them to have it free. Those people may thing they get free since they are not paying for it in cash. But, in the long term, everyone pays for open source in some way. That is one principle I remember from my economic courses. Just because their is the word "FREE" on the price tag, you are still paying for it by other methods, methods that you may not be aware of unless you are given all the facts and chain of events that came about in the production and development of that product.

Tim L.
Elmira, New York, USA, World
I volunteer my time and my computers for many causes, where LibreOffice is just one of them.

I didn't say it doesn't cost anything...

I said I didn't see the attitude exhibited as described by Roland.

And what you then go on to describe is *not* the same thing as Roland
described, not even close...

Of course free software costs... and I for one am very appreciative of
the efforts (yours and others, here and elsewhere) of those who make
free software possible.

Hi guys,

.. wrote (30-05-11 23:36)

On 2011- ...

On 05/30 ...

On 2011-05- ...

On Mon, 2011-05- ...

With due respect to all you opinions, knowledge, smart wordings etc, etc ... but how many new features, maked as fixed bugs, or new bugs could you have tested in the mean time? Or documentation reviewed, or ... I do not say it is something you have to do, of course, but it is something you might consider.

Cheers,
Cor

We have been a business user of open source software and especially OOO,
LO from way back before it was open sourced. Possibly there is a
difference in expectations. Managing use of products such as LO is
different from commercial software. With commercial software you pay the
vendor to manage your updates, you rely on check for new software -
update. With LO and other open source software it is the responsibility
of the IT manager to decide which snapshot of the rapidly changing and
improving software to implement in their business.

  We use a mix of Suse linux and Windows, Suse seem relatively reserved
in their updating and their package management tends to produce fairly
stable results, not leading edge. I also stay a couple of versions
behind so I can research potential advantages/disadvantages before
updating. For business I would use package and update management of LO
from Suse to ease my job. For most recent home use where I can tolerate
some more faults I might use the installations from the LO site for the
most recent advances and to test benefits against cost of updating. So
as a business user I would expect to pay a little more for the managed
packages and receive a little more, and am quite happy with what I receive.

I believe the branded versions of LO are advantageous to the advancement
of LO, adding credibility and stability. I think the Fedora, Suse,
Ubuntus a doing a valuable service to LO. The difficulty comes with the
Windows users of LO. There doesn't seem to be a commercial enterprise
championing a windows version of LO and so the windows users need to
asses each community release of LO as to its being fit for their
purposes. For businesses that comes down to the IT manager checking each
release, monitoring bug reporting, trying the release, before rolling it
out. This is my approach for our Windows PC's not using Suse.
I recollect the saying "free as in beer or free as in speech" A beer you
didn't pay for was not free, it cost something to make and someone else
paid for it.

steve

Part of the issue with Windows users, that is not for Linux users, is the fact that Windows users are "brainwashed" to think that anything not put out by MS is not something you should use for an OS or an office suite. As for Linux users, we do not have the option to use MSO. So we are not filled with the mush that tells us that you must have MSO and all the related mush, or you are not doing it properly. IF MSO was ported to Linux, then we would have a different story. Since we dropped MS for our OS, we do not have our eyes blinded by all their mush they try to feed us with.

We Linux users have long ago looked beyond what everyone else tells us what we MUST use and have found out that there are alternatives out there that we feel could be better for us than what MS tries to feed us.

For Windows users, if there is a crash then their who system could crash and burn. That has happened to me before. With Linux, if a package crashes, the system does not crash. When running Windows, I had to search and test so much software that would work for me but would not cause issues with the other packages running in that Windows environment. I had too many problems with software not wanting to "play nice" with the other software.

So, that is one reason I agree with you. If you use Windows, you need to do much more work to make sure the package will not mess up your system. With Linux, there are less chances for that to happen. The idea that if you have to pay big bucks to receive a copy of the software, then it much have been worked on, tested and de-bugged, and made to work the way you need it to. Then you get the other extreme of if it is free, it must not have been worked on, tested and de-bugged, and may to work the way you need it to. We are taught that from the time we could handle our on money. "You get what you paid for" is the lesson we are taught.

Now as the open source market grows and grows, we are coming to realize that there are free packages that are just as good, or even better, than the high priced paid packages. Now we have to decide for ourselves what works for our needs and the needs of the people we work for.

You decide that you want the best package and the most stable one to be the same package. That is what we are all looking for when we have people above us to tell us that we are responsible for the software to work and not cause their businesses any problems. It does not matter that someone is using it totally wrong and try to make it so something it cannot. We are always to blame. I was fired from a job for spilling coffee all over a keyboard and the tower of someone office computer. The fact that I cannot stand coffee, so I would not have a cup of it, let alone spill it, does not matter. It was not the idiot who had fresh coffee stains on her blouse and skirt. No it was the IT guy's fault. It has to be his fault. Everything that is wrong with the computers is his fault.

So we all must make sure everything we tell our bosses that they need to use, must work 120% of the time and work in ways it was not advertised to work. We need it to work, or we do not work.

That said. . . . .

What we use for Windows business systems have to be tested out 5 to 10 times more than what is used for Linux business systems. That is the nature of the systems. Windows have more things that could go wrong, and more ways to crash your systems. Linux systems are safer for crashes and from the nasties that were designed to mess with Windows systems.

Business systems need the most stable packages and cannot be on the "cutting edge" for software packages. You just cannot risk it in you business systems. Since most of these systems are using Windows, you have to be more careful as well, over the Linux business system software. Linux tends to be safer and work better than the "exact same package" does using Windows OS.

ramble, ramble, ramble. to tired to think straight. maybe tomorrow I will be able to say it better. my head hurts too much right now to thing straightly on this subject.

...

ramble, ramble, ramble. to tired to think straight. maybe tomorrow I
will be able to say it better. my head hurts too much right now to
thing straightly on this subject.

Agree.

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Zed

I'm getting tired of these Linux versus Windows discussions.
Let's say that both platforms have their advantages and their disadvantages.

So far the discussions here haven't produced much useful information.
As for stability. On my systems OpenOffice is much more stable than LibreOffice.
I don't care if software is free or not, it needs to be able to do the job.
In the past I have bought versions of StarOffice.
I write a lot of papers with many formulas inside it.
The better way to do this is using OpenOffice/LibreOffice.

Best regards,

    John Bijnens