database or spreadsheet

users
#41

Hi Drew,

The user asked how to rename sheets in Calc - end of story.

But the beginning of the story is, that the user, before asking this
question, first described an unfortunate way of holding data, which
is the reason why he needs to rename a big number of sheets.

Sometimes you serve better if you do not *only* answer the question.

If you don't want to answer that question, then don't answer - but don't
open the door and show him two young men in white shirts offering to
save his soul..

or - answer his, perfectly valid, question first and then offer the
sermon, but what he got was a sermon and no answer to his question.

That´s not true. There were several suggestions how to rename the
sheets. *You* even "translated" an Excel macro for him. So how can
you say, no answer was given?

Stefan
:slight_smile:

#42

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

  It is not known from the original poster _why_ the sheets needed to be changed.

Jeeze. DOES IT MATTER? No of course it doesn't MATTER.

When you try to provide computer support, you'll often find someone is trying to solve the wrong problem. When you know what they're trying to do, you are then in a position to help them.

So, yes it does matter.

#43

This is nothing to do with MS Office vs LibreOffice.
It is to do with whole spreadsheet vs database debate.

Normal users like spreadsheets, because you can
start with a blank spreadsheet, add stuff by typing, or copy/paste,
and produce useable results straight away. Spreadsheets
are also very extensible - an average user can do amazing
things with a few formulas, which are relatively easy to
understand.
Databases - whether Access or Base - are not easy to create
from scratch. Normal users do not like databases, as they
are complex and restrictive, and take too much setting up
before you can get anything useful out. We all have
to accept that spreadsheets will always be 'abused' when
a database may be more appropriate, until someone invents
a whole new database-spreadsheet hybrid.

cheers,

Chris

#44

Hi,

We all have
to accept that spreadsheets will always be 'abused' when
a database may be more appropriate, until someone invents
a whole new database-spreadsheet hybrid.

True. However, Calc (and other spreadsheet applications) offer a
bunch of very usefull tools for working with data, that are held in
a spreadsheet. From my observation, approx. 80% of all use cases of
spreadsheets is having data in lists.

In order to benefit from the usefull tools, Calc users need to
understand database-like structures. For example, in order to
benefit from DataPilot you must not separate your data on several
sheets, just because they belong to a different time period. :wink:

It´s not the users to blame for not knowing about these facts. Blame
it on authors, trainers and teachers... and on people who are not
willing to beleive, that productively using an office suite needs
some education on it.

Stefan
:slight_smile:

#45

Hi Drew,

Halo Stephen,

Before we start in earnest.

This was an outlying case as far as I'm concerned, not the norm here.

But that said, we learn usually from looking at those situations where
things didn't go quite as expected. That is my motivation for getting
into this.

> The user asked how to rename sheets in Calc - end of story.

But the beginning of the story is, that the user, before asking this
question, first described an unfortunate way of holding data, which
is the reason why he needs to rename a big number of sheets.

Not quite - but let's start from when he did put specificity to his
question.

He has sheets named for each month, 12 sheets.

He uses the tool (a spreadsheet) in a way that works for him.

A spreadsheet made by himself for himself.

Sometimes you serve better if you do not *only* answer the question.

Agreed that is often the case.

However it was not a case of extending the answer to his question,
rather the very first thing out of everyones mouth was: You are wrong,
when he disagreed (surprise) -then- You are stupid.

> If you don't want to answer that question, then don't answer - but don't
> open the door and show him two young men in white shirts offering to
> save his soul..
>
> or - answer his, perfectly valid, question first and then offer the
> sermon, but what he got was a sermon and no answer to his question.

That´s not true.

There were several suggestions how to rename the
sheets. *You* even "translated" an Excel macro for him. So how can
you say, no answer was given?

Yup I did - and Andreas expanded on it - my statements, and I would
think you recognize, dealt with the exchanges up to that moment.

My real point is this - look at how that went, and IMO, it could have
gone much better, again IMO, with only one change - address the question
first and then expand on it - if the user wants to expand on it.

Remember please this was not a question of a user saying - my data or my
work is a mess, quite the contrary, he just asked if there was a way to
easily automate something, in a process that otherwise works for him.

That's all I'm getting at.

Best wishes,

//drew

#46

Trust me. I'm NOT asking the wrong question, neither am I trying to solve the wrong problem. I am an EXPERIENCED (as in 20 years) user of all types of spreadsheet, which if you'd read my other ;posts you would see.

#47

We're not remote-sensing mind-readers.

James Knott has a very valid point, one which I myself have suffered through over the decades: power user or newbie developer has skills inadequate to the task, but doesn't know it, so asks "How do I snagglethrob the doohickey?" when the correct question is, "What's the best way to make *this* report run faster?" and so let the Expert possibly come up with an idea that the power user never would have thought of.

#48

I think many of us, including myself, have a tendency to try fitting a square peg in a round hole because we know the square peg tool and not the round hole tool.

#49

[snip]

We're not remote-sensing mind-readers.

James Knott has a very valid point, one which I myself have suffered
through over the decades: power user or newbie developer has skills
inadequate to the task, but doesn't know it, so asks "How do I
snagglethrob the doohickey?" when the correct question is, "What's the
best way to make *this* report run faster?" and so let the Expert
possibly come up with an idea that the power user never would have
thought of.

I think many of us, including myself, have a tendency to try fitting a
square peg in a round hole because we know the square peg tool and not
the round hole tool.

Sure. It's where the the phrase "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes from... :slight_smile:

As a DBA, my first thought when presented with a problem is "use a database!!" I must control that impulse, balancing expertise with suitability for the job.

#50

But the point I made in other posts is that the square peg tool isn't necessary - that's why I am using the round-peg tool, and it's nobodies business but mine!

#51

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker <gbplinux@gmail.com>wrote:

On 12/02/2012 23:25, Jay Lozier wrote:

On 02/12/2012 06:09 PM, Ron Johnson wrote:

On 02/12/2012 01:52 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 08/02/2012 12:57, James Knott wrote:

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 07/02/2012 13:03, e-letter wrote:

It is not known from the original poster _why_ the sheets needed to
be changed.

Jeeze. DOES IT MATTER? No of course it doesn't MATTER.

When you try to provide computer support, you'll often find someone is
trying to solve the wrong problem. When you know what they're trying
to do, you are then in a position to help them.

So, yes it does matter.

Trust me. I'm NOT asking the wrong question, neither am I trying to

solve the wrong problem. I am an EXPERIENCED (as in 20 years) user of
all types of spreadsheet, which if you'd read my other ;posts you would
see.

We're not remote-sensing mind-readers.

James Knott has a very valid point, one which I myself have suffered
through over the decades: power user or newbie developer has skills
inadequate to the task, but doesn't know it, so asks "How do I snagglethrob
the doohickey?" when the correct question is, "What's the best way to make
*this* report run faster?" and so let the Expert possibly come up with an
idea that the power user never would have thought of.

I think many of us, including myself, have a tendency to try fitting a

square peg in a round hole because we know the square peg tool and not the
round hole tool.

But the point I made in other posts is that the square peg tool isn't

necessary - that's why I am using the round-peg tool, and it's nobodies
business but mine!

With that attitude, you'll be lucky to get any help at all.

#52

Not an attitude on my part at all. I have been responding to intolerant and ignorant evangelists who INSIST that THEIR way of collecting and using data is the ONLY way.
They INSIST that the "problem" I was asking a solution for was the wrong problem because I don't conform to THEIR methods.
Now who has the "attitude"?