Defending ODF against OOXML in the UK

users
#21

Jay,

Makes perfect sense to me. I do think that software changes are often made as a result of the file formats rather than the programs themselves.

A few years ago, most lawyers in the U.S. used WordPerfect, and they really liked it. It had some features that were very suitable for the law office. However, most of their corporate clients were using Word. (Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft). Over time, law offices began migrating to Word, not because they liked the program better, but because they needed file compatibility with their clients. Now, WordPerfect is all but an afterthought.

I formerly worked in a local government law department. For years, each department was permitted to select its own programs. So, we used WordPerfect's office suite, while the finance department (which preferred Excel) used MS Office. The IT department got tired of supporting multiple office suites and decided the government offices all needed to standardize on one program. Since the IT department was under the authority of the finance department, you can guess which office suite was chosen. Despite our protestations, we were overruled and converted to Office. Even then, I would use OpenOffice when I didn't need to share files with others, just to assert my freedom.

Virgil

If ODF formats were used like the UK wants then different groups can use whatever program works best for them. As you noted US lawyers preferred WordPerfect while accountants preferred Excel. This competition is what MS fears because without vendor lock-in one can spend money one wants.

<snip>

#22

Hi Jay

Jay Lozier wrote

This effect will be magnified if Europe follows the UK lead.

Sorry to burst your UK centric bubble :slight_smile: Most European countries have
already decided for ODF... UK is not leading, it's following.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument_adoption

Cheers,
Pedro
(from Portugal, who already adopted ODF 1.1 back in 2012 :slight_smile: )

#23

Pedro

I stand corrected. Thanks,

I in the US where I am and the US tech press rarely mentions Europe is moving towards ODF. (Snide comments about faux journalists being MS lap dogs).

Jay

#24

Virgil Arrington wrote:

A few years ago, most lawyers in the U.S. used WordPerfect, and they
really liked it. It had some features that were very suitable for the
law office. However, most of their corporate clients were using Word.
(Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft). Over time, law offices
began migrating to Word, not because they liked the program better,
but because they needed file compatibility with their clients. Now,
WordPerfect is all but an afterthought.

After one of one of the anti-trust cases, Microsoft received a large
document in WP format. They had to go out and buy a copy of Word
Perfect, to read that document. :wink:

#25

I believe I read somewhere that it was the law firm that MS had hired that was using WordPerfect.

#26

I love it! I still use WordPerfect on occasion. It has some features that are
not duplicated anywhere else, as far as I know, and it is somewhat more user-friendly
than OO and LO. (Sorry, LInux guys!) I actually use OO and LO, but when I really
need to get down and dirty, WP is the place to be.

--doug

#27

Doug wrote:

but when I really
need to get down and dirty, WP is the place to be.

Many years ago, I occasionally had to use WP at work. I much preferred
Wordstar 2000. Back then I was using PC-Write at home. :wink:

#28

Virgil,
I have not seen that commercial. Maybe different cable companies or different areas of the country have different commercials.

I hate companies who state if you do not use their product then you are not a "real user or consumer, American, serious business, etc., etc.. I have seen to many of these in print and on TV.

Yes, Word for word processing, like Kleenex for facial tissues, is something that is hard to fight in the market. Once it gets started, you have a difficult time to get people to think that your "word" represents your product. I like "LibreOffice for liberate your office from expensive license fees". I think I just made that up. Or "LibreOffice - Always Free. No Fees Attached"

I finally got one lady to send our .doc files instead of .docx ones. She got the point that not everyone has the "latest and greatest" version[s] of MS Office or their cloud version[s].

Yes, the UK needs to think "ODF" first and then choose the best software that supports it. LO is the best for ODF, as far as I have seen and read in the tech articles. But ODF vs. OOXML is a totally different discussion/argument than MS Office vs. LibreOffice or AOO.

I started with mainframes, then with IBM PCs and "compatible to IBM PCs". My first "compatible to" system I built from a kit of parts/boards back when PC-XT came out. Then 386, 486, etc. etc.. DOS [MS and PC] to Windows. Windows to Linux or Mac. Yes over the years there was no real standard for file formats. Now there is, though. The International Standards people choose ODF. So now we can start asking people to use the International Standard for office suite file formats - ODF. Sure MS really needs to get their act together and read/write ODF properly so they to will offer "THE standard" - ODF.

As for office personal that do not know how to put page numbers or use bullets correctly, well every industry has their "lowest common denominator" that cannot do the simple things. But they are offset by the people who can do things that you thought was impossible with the product. We just have to be patient with these under achievers and over achievers.

I had a lady give me a "broken" desktop. I saw the drive had only Linux installed as the operating system. I asked her what type of of Linux she was using, since the drive was "half dead" and would not keep mounted. She asked me what Linux was. She was using some version of Linux and never knew that she was. The guy who gave her the desktop did not tell her it had Linux installed instead of Windows. She just used it and did not know what she was using. Actually, I read some articles a few years ago telling you how to make Ubuntu 10.xx and/or 11.xx look like Windows XP or Vista. Get them using the system and not tell them that they are not using Windows. They do not seem to notice. She did not.

Yes, learning a new office suite can be challenging. But how many have you had to learn over the years? PC-Write [DOS], WordStar, WordPerfect, Word 95 MSO 97-2003. MSO and its Ribbon menu system. How many more did you have to learn to support people in you office/work/college/etc.? Every time a new version of MSO comes out, you might have to learn some new feature. LO is not immune to needing to learn how to use the new features and any menu system changes. That is what is expected if you keep your software up-to-date. Yes, people do not like giving up their favorite packages to comply to the new office/work-place standards, but they do learn. Give them a free office suite and guide them through using both to start with. Then ween off the users from MSO while helping them use LO instead. Later, the user will stop using MSO for most things and you can remove it from their desktop. Well I used MSO 2003 and OOo back and forth for a bit, till I was comfortable with OOo. Then I stopped using MSO. I still had it as a backup for about a year, though. In the spring of 2010, I went to a Ubuntu desktop so I could not use MSO at all. Of course, LO came out and I went to being a LO user for both Ubuntu and Windows systems. It will take time for the UK and the rest of Europe to move to ODF, if they have not done so already. The same is true with the switch from MSO to LO or AOO. More and more people, businesses, government agencies, are going to FOSS packages to do their "business". I think it will take many more years to get a good market share of the Windows office suite market, but we are slowly increasing our share and taking it away from MSO on the desktop and laptop Windows market. Now once we have LO for Android and Mac "i" devices, then we will slowly build a market share there.

Slow and Steady. Eat Away the MSO hold on the office suite market.

Desktops and Laptops are a "dead growth market" according to the "pad" and tablet industry [Kindle and Nook included], but they are not dead. Business still NEED them for operating their businesses, since they can do more than tablets. I have a printer that will allow tablets to print to it, but need a Windows system to run the needed software. I have a 16 GB [or is it 32 GB] Nook. Yet, it cannot handle the 6 TB drive space that I have on this desktop I am typing from, plus the 6 TB worth of USB backup drives. AND NO, cloud storage will not work for "everyone". I think it is not a "safe" place to store your private and secure business documents/files. There are too many articles about how un-safe they can be.

oh well, I think I am rambling again in the wee hours of the morning.
Tim L. 3:11 am - it is time for bed....

#29

As an aside: The following is why things are they way they are in
business, any more.

Since the IT department was
under the authority of the finance department, ...

[snip]

We've avoided IT falling under control of the bean counters, where I
work. If that ever changes: I'm outta here.

Regards,
Jim

#30

[snip]

More a case of the U.S. being U.S.-centric... to the point where the
rest of the world doesn't matter. But that's another topic, for
another day, hopefully in another place :wink:

Regards,
Jim

#31

On the other side of the coin, I was a Group Management/Systems
accountant in a publicly-quoted IT company some years ago.
We had J D Edwards ERM system running on AIX. (And I have a few stories
about THAT as well!)
The Group Finance Department wanted a reporting tool to ensure integrity
of reporting.
We did some research and eventually purchased Hyperion - an
industry-standard reporting tool.
The IT dept refused to install it, saying they hadn't been "consulted".
One example of the organisation existing for the IT dept's benefit,
rather than the other way round! :wink:

#32

Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

Now once we have LO for Android and Mac "i" devices,

There is a version of OpenOffice for Android now available. That will
certainly meet your requirements for working with ODF on a tablet,
though you'll want one with a large display.

#33

Gordon wrote:

The IT dept refused to install it, saying they hadn't been "consulted".
One example of the organisation existing for the IT dept's benefit,
rather than the other way round! :wink:

been there

Virgil

#34

[snip]

The IT dept refused to install it, saying they hadn't been
"consulted". One example of the organisation existing for the IT
dept's benefit, rather than the other way round! :wink:

I guess I was being too subtle, by far :). Was trying not to insult of
offend anybody. My larger point was that corporate decisions these
days are more often made by people who add numbers than those who
innovate.

I agree, re: The role of I.T. I.T. is not an end, but a means.

Regards,
Jim

#35

Kracked wrote:

The International Standards people choose ODF. So now we can start asking people to use the International Standard for office suite file formats - ODF. Sure MS really needs to get their act together and read/write ODF properly so they to will offer "THE standard" - ODF.

This reminds me of the '60s bumper sticker that read, "What if they held a war and nobody showed up?" What if the International Standards people chose a "standard" format and nobody listened? We can complain as much as we want about MS not using the internationally accepted "standard," but as long as the end users are flocking to Word and .DOCX, it is the de factor standard. Again, I don't like it, but standards are determined by the marketplace, not by the dictates of some international board.

If I asked a colleague to use ODF file formats because some International board declared it to be the "standard," they would laugh me out of my office. "Everybody uses Word," they would say, and I'd have to admit, they'd be right.

I agree that MS should properly implement the standard. But, what if they don't? People will still by Word and still send documents in DOCX format and the rest of us will still stay up late complaining about it on LO list serves.

*sigh*

Virgil

#36

Jim Seymour wrote:

I agree, re: The role of I.T. I.T. is not an end, but a means.

??? :wink:

#37

If you're talking about Euro Office, it only supports odt at the moment.
Support for ods and odp is promised in future releases.
Having said that - it seems to work pretty well on a Kindle Fire HD...

#38

Hi :slight_smile:
Please can anyone with anything to say about ODF please post comments
to the consultation exercise
http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20140220165521599
I think you can post even if you are not English or have trouble
writing in English. Go for it!

My view is that ODF is the only format that really has true
interoperability at the moment. In the future i suspect it will
become MUCH more widely prevalent and files stored in almost any other
format might struggle to be opened.

People might be using DocX quite a bit at the moment but each version
of MS Office seems to give fairly different results when trying to
display files written with other versions of MS Office. The various
different implementations of MS's OOXML have been given different
names. 2007 and 2010 were using a "transistional OOXML" (ie NOT pure
as per the ISO standard and not the same as each other). 2013 and 365
supposedly use "strict" but in the future they might well change again
with no documentation describing the changes (unlike the well
documented changes between ODF 1.2 and "extended". Also it's unlikely
that programs can easily switch between "strict" and whichever is used
as default (unlike OO and LO)

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#39

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

There is a version of OpenOffice for Android now available. That will
> certainly meet your requirements for working with ODF on a tablet,
> though you'll want one with a large display.
>
>

If you're talking about Euro Office, it only supports odt at the moment.
Support for ods and odp is promised in future releases.
Having said that - it seems to work pretty well on a Kindle Fire HD...

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andropenoffice

#40

That doesn't work on my Kindle - tried it and kept getting an error
message about not being able to download resources...