LibreOffice Still?

users
#66

Thanks Sophie
I have had bugs that others did not. One too an update of Ubuntu to remove the "bug"/issue with that version of LO. Another was fixed with the next version or three. There are too many systems out there, and too many flavors of various operating systems, Linux being "named" version of Linux and its version number, plus the different desktop environments, etc.. Ubuntu 13.xx/14.xx has Unity, with post install d.e.'s of KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, XFCE, Gnome3, and many others, along with Kubuntu, Lubuntu, and some others out there. Then add Linux Mint [Ubuntu based] different versions, and the other OS's that use .deb installs. Then add in all of the .rpm install types of Linux OS's. That is a lot of different combinations of version of Linux and desktop environments out there. I have some software that cannot run on the newest Ubuntu or Mint software, since there were changes in the packages needed in the display of a GUI - like Unity, MATE, KDE, etc.. So even the different version numbers have differences that could be an issue, or look like a bug, for LO and its user. Then deal with Windows, and Mac systems. NO testing team, even a 100 people, could test all of the functions of LO with every hardware, software, and OS/d.e. combination out there. The big software companies cannot, so why expect our alpha/beta/release version testers to do that job and find all of those issues/bugs?

4.3.0 passed the "testing and release rules" to get "published". Sure there will be issues in the x.x.0 version. There may be unresolved issues in the x.x.6/7 versions as well. Many have not have had any solutions found to resolve the issue[s] while others have not been replicated by the testers or only by one or two and the developers have not found what is causing the issues - yet.

I rarely pass on version below x.x.3 or .4 to others, and a lot of time not install the x.x.0 version on my systems, unless there is a major upgrade to a part of GUI or some other part of LO that I want to use. Some of the users will update their systems with each and every version in a cycle till the next line comes out and then they go to that line's x.x.0 version.

Our volunteer developers and testing users do their best, before the version go beyond the beta stage AND during the different version number updates. They do their best. Then we do our best to help the users who have problems with LO till the developers and testers can figure out how to fix the issue, if possible. There are too few doing the work on their own time after they get home from their "day jobs". They are volunteers and do not get paid. The last time I knew, we had only one paid person - the one who keeps our servers up and running. Then the money for that position comes from the donations to pay for the costs of the hardware and bandwidth to keep LibreOffice.com [and its associated sites] online and running properly.

I think we are doing a great job for a bunch of volunteers who do the work after they come home from their "day jobs" and spend a few hours on LO "stuff" taking those hours away from "family time". THANKS to all of our volunteers and their families.

Tim L. - volunteer

#67

Yes, and no.

As a general rule, Long Term Support is a direct function of
business/corporate support. (Debian is probably the best known example
of an entity that provides Long Term Support versions of software it
maintains, but not commercial support for that software.)

The major users of LTS versions of software are corporate entities. It
is not uncommon for those organizations to test software for three to
six months, prior to deploying it throughout the organization. Once
deployed, the expectation is that it will be used for at least three
years, with five to ten years being not uncommon. In extreme cases, the
software remains in use for 15+ years after original deployment. (I'm
aware of one firm that retired its "mission critical software" three
years ago. That software was written for MS-DOS 3.31, and would not run
on any later version of MS-DOS, nor on competitors, such as PC-DOS,
DrDos, and 4Dos.)

Were LibreOffice to offer an LTS version, then it would have to be
supported for at least one year, and probably two or three years. With
six months between versions, companies simply don't have the time tofix
the things that the new version breaks.

My recommendation would be:
* Bleeding edge development: Nightly Build: This version will physically
destroy your system. You have been warned. The Document Foundation is
not responsible for the resulting destruction;
* Beta: Version 4.5.x: This version will destroy your data. If that is
not an issue for you, then use it, because it has all the bells,
whistles, and bugs in it. The Document Foundation not responsible for
your data loss, or any other loss you suffer, by using this version;

* Stable: Version 4.4: This is the current version. Some of the bugs
have been removed, but it has all of the current bells and whistles;
* LTS: Version 4.0: This version may lack bells and whistles, but most
of the bugs have been removed. Bug fixes are deliberately incorporated
into this version. New bells and whistles are deliberately omitted from
this version;

I am deliberately tying the LTS version to increments in the major
version number. (I don't remember the criteria for incrementing the
major version number, and a search of the LibO site doesn't come up with
anything.)(LTS status is granted when version 5.1.0 is released, rather
than 5.0.0.)

#68

Hi :slight_smile:
I usually get mails from the Marketing List but didn't see any discussion
about the new ideas for branch names. If i had i might have mentioned that
Fresh vs Stagnant branch held some unfortunate connotations that might not
have been obvious.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#69

Hi, good night all:

  As I understand there are some official versions. I think that could be
better that The Document Foundation only has one version for all
languages for production and makes its firsts efforts to solve all the
most important bugs (This would be by user and programmer votes) before
to start a new version.

  In this way The Document Foundation assures to step up when the before
version is really OK ! for all and production.

  I think is better go more slowly but complete all important issues of
the official version than growing fast fast fast but would be with
disorders. And in this time as I know the version of production even has
bugs stand by to be solve.

  This words are because I appreciate so much the all efforts for get the
best for Libre Office but some times when we don`t focus in the same we
would loss some of them.

Regards,

Jorge Rodríguez

#70

No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully expect
new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so that
LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added
feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.

I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
(rightly so, that's his job), users complaining about lack of bug fixes
w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of resources &
have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to begin with?

The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to the
internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:
<https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.libreoffice.org/download>

On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is only
download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to 4.0 or
'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?

@TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December 2013 &
keep it simple.
  IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your dev
efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as a user)
hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll have
to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v 'Daily' v
'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are
spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't properly
concentrate on a baseline release fix?

@Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that bugs
will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind, but
I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC (X.Y.0) and
use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
announce/promote here or elsewhere.

@Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a new
name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome to
contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor should it
be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead invite the
"private marketing list" members to participate in this thread, this is
afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may want to
do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private marketing
list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a transcript
of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this "open
source" project can review?

Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private marketing
list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever' download
page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.

#71

Hi Tom,

If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the quality of the next stable will be lower.... Does this help?

No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully expect
new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so that
LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added
feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.

No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy, then Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC... every other project has that crazy way.

I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
(rightly so, that's his job),

huh? What is my job, according to you?

users complaining about lack of bug fixes
w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of resources &
have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to begin with?

Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1.

The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to the
internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:
<https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.libreoffice.org/download>

On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is only
download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to 4.0 or
'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?

@TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December 2013 &
keep it simple.

@Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were already complaining about the same things.

  IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your dev
efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as a user)
hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll have
to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v 'Daily' v
'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are
spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't properly
concentrate on a baseline release fix?

@Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that bugs
will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind, but
I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC (X.Y.0) and
use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
announce/promote here or elsewhere.

@Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a new
name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome to
contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor should it
be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead invite the
"private marketing list" members to participate in this thread, this is
afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may want to
do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private marketing
list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a transcript
of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this "open
source" project can review?

Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users are our future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy things from us and users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds crazy to you, we do highly encourage users to join our various teams. As for the private marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for press/announcement preparations, otherwise news and text elements would be disclosed before due date. How do you join this list? Good question. By contributing, not by complaining, and by asking. And if that's not your call, we have plenty of other teams for you to join : https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/

If that's still not your call, and you just want to use LibreOffice... that's fine! we are happy that you do so.

Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private marketing
list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever' download
page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.

Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed a brand new website, asked for feedback on several completely open and public lists for several months. We feel good about the choices we have made (although we are still toying with the Still branch name) but no we won't come back to the December 2013, December 2010 or December 10 C.E. because some think the past is always better than the future.

Best,

Charles.

#72

Hi Tim, all,

Hi,

So, you do go through stages. You just misnomered them.

Why not just use that?

Stages:
Alpha
Beta
Release Candidate
Final Release Candidate (LO v4.3.0)
Stable (LO v4.2.6)

Please read this page to know more about our development process
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan
and this to know more about the naming of our versions
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan#Version_scheme

May be you'll understand that both are fully tested and stable.
But LibreOffice is a software that is used in very different
environments that we can't reproduce in our own. That's why, the time
being, advanced users are helping us to reduce the number of bugs and
regressions, that doesn't make the version unstable however.

Kind regards
Sophie

Thanks Sophie
I have had bugs that others did not. One too an update of Ubuntu to
remove the "bug"/issue with that version of LO. Another was fixed with
the next version or three. There are too many systems out there, and
too many flavors of various operating systems, Linux being "named"
version of Linux and its version number, plus the different desktop
environments, etc.. Ubuntu 13.xx/14.xx has Unity, with post install
d.e.'s of KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, XFCE, Gnome3, and many others, along with
Kubuntu, Lubuntu, and some others out there. Then add Linux Mint
[Ubuntu based] different versions, and the other OS's that use .deb
installs. Then add in all of the .rpm install types of Linux OS's.
That is a lot of different combinations of version of Linux and desktop
environments out there. I have some software that cannot run on the
newest Ubuntu or Mint software, since there were changes in the packages
needed in the display of a GUI - like Unity, MATE, KDE, etc.. So even
the different version numbers have differences that could be an issue,
or look like a bug, for LO and its user. Then deal with Windows, and
Mac systems. NO testing team, even a 100 people, could test all of the
functions of LO with every hardware, software, and OS/d.e. combination
out there. The big software companies cannot, so why expect our
alpha/beta/release version testers to do that job and find all of those
issues/bugs?

That's it exactly :slight_smile:

4.3.0 passed the "testing and release rules" to get "published". Sure
there will be issues in the x.x.0 version. There may be unresolved
issues in the x.x.6/7 versions as well. Many have not have had any
solutions found to resolve the issue[s] while others have not been
replicated by the testers or only by one or two and the developers have
not found what is causing the issues - yet.

I rarely pass on version below x.x.3 or .4 to others, and a lot of time
not install the x.x.0 version on my systems, unless there is a major
upgrade to a part of GUI or some other part of LO that I want to use.
Some of the users will update their systems with each and every version
in a cycle till the next line comes out and then they go to that line's
x.x.0 version.

yes

Our volunteer developers and testing users do their best, before the
version go beyond the beta stage AND during the different version number
updates. They do their best. Then we do our best to help the users who
have problems with LO till the developers and testers can figure out how
to fix the issue, if possible. There are too few doing the work on
their own time after they get home from their "day jobs". They are
volunteers and do not get paid. The last time I knew, we had only one
paid person - the one who keeps our servers up and running. Then the
money for that position comes from the donations to pay for the costs of
the hardware and bandwidth to keep LibreOffice.com [and its associated
sites] online and running properly.

Small correction here about paid persons by TDF, there is now the
Executive Director, the release manager, one person paid part time for
infra, and one person for L10/QA/release coordination and help on TDF
admin (me) and we will soon have a QA engineer.
see the Board decisions here:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions

I think we are doing a great job for a bunch of volunteers who do the
work after they come home from their "day jobs" and spend a few hours on
LO "stuff" taking those hours away from "family time". THANKS to all of
our volunteers and their families.

big +1 from my side :slight_smile: thanks a lot for your support and your work too!
Kind regards
Sophie

#73

Hi :slight_smile:
No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing List since
the very early days of TDF. I know that user-support and customer service
are kinda frowned on as being not much work.

However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a prime place
to build people up and recruit them for this and other teams. I bet there
are tons of people in various teams right now who wouldn't be there if it
hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them into it.

Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how about doing
more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here. Maybe that way
you could show us how little work it takes and we would learn to be
better. Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much hard work it takes.

The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy. Almost
elegant! It was finally easy to see how to change anything such as
language, OS, version. It was even quite a good way of showing off quite
what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't confusing or hidden. At
last the buttons were proper buttons that could be pressed like real-world
buttons.

In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your position is
so perfect that any move is going to detract from that perfection. There
are times when you really need to pass and miss a go or lose the game.
That appears to have happened to the downloads page.

I was shocked by the downloads page today. The layout IS appalling and
confusing. It's difficult to find how to get anything other than the
default download. Then set choices kept getting forgotten. Tick-boxes
used inappropriately and didn't work.

Change just for the sake of change is not always positive.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#74

Hi :slight_smile:
No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing List
since the very early days of TDF. I know that user-support and
customer service are kinda frowned on as being not much work.

I would never say that.

However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a prime
place to build people up and recruit them for this and other teams. I
bet there are tons of people in various teams right now who wouldn't
be there if it hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them into
it.

I am a bit surprised by that but I could be wrong: Noop has had quite a few negative comments for years and it did not strike me that it could attract new volunteers or that he was helping people to become volunteers.

Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how about
doing more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here.
Maybe that way you could show us how little work it takes and we would
learn to be better. Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much hard
work it takes.

Let's do this then: what is hard to understand - I'm not saying everything's easy, but please describe, step by step, what is hard about contributing or finding information about contributing.

The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy. Almost
elegant! It was finally easy to see how to change anything such as
language, OS, version. It was even quite a good way of showing off
quite what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't confusing or
hidden. At last the buttons were proper buttons that could be pressed
like real-world buttons.

In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your
position is so perfect that any move is going to detract from that
perfection. There are times when you really need to pass and miss a
go or lose the game. That appears to have happened to the downloads
page.

So this download page has been around for 6 months. There was a period of public development and public feedback collection of 3 months before that. Where were you? Where was Noop? (BTW: "I was on the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid argument).

I was shocked by the downloads page today. The layout IS appalling
and confusing. It's difficult to find how to get anything other than
the default download. Then set choices kept getting forgotten.
Tick-boxes used inappropriately and didn't work.

Change just for the sake of change is not always positive.

True. Criticizing something for 4 years does not make it right either...

Best,

Charles.

#75

Quoting myself:

"please describe, step by step, what is hard
about contributing or finding information about contributing."

No answer to that question.

As for customer service, we don't do customer service. Volunteers provide users support. Users support in this case is not done as a consequence of a purchase or any sort of commercial transaction. It changes quite a lot of things. But as I wrote before: "I would never say that"...talking about belittling the value or complexity of users support.

Charles.

#76

>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be
>> resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the
>> quality of the next stable will be lower.... Does this help?
>
> No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully
> expect new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by
> default so that LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new &
> improved & added feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.

No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy, then
Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC... every
other project has that crazy way.

Wow, I actually can't believe that you are seriously suggesting that
all other open source projects ask all their users, especially new ones,
to adopt a known unstable branch so that they can test it properly?

Surely you don't mean to suggest that. In fact, from what you've said in
the past, I'm sure you don't mean to suggest that. What I think you
meant to say is that you and Sophie are not implying that, but are
instead implying that the current "Fresh" branch is stable enough for
general use, and although the "Still" branch is slightly more stable,
you don't feel that the extra slight stability is important enough to
push users towards that branch instead of the "Fresh" branch.

Given that, the question then really *does* become why is it still
around? Surely it should just be relegated to the pile of old versions?
If Fresh has all the new features and is rock solid enough for general
use, why even have another branch that doesn't have the features and is
only negligibly more stable?

Anybody with serious stability requirements could easily find an older
version from the archives.

Of course, if you tried that, I think you would find a large portion of
people would complain, thereby suggesting that actually the perceived
need is to have the "Still" branch as the primary branch, but that's
just what I personally suspect will happen, not a guarantee.

>
> I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
> (rightly so, that's his job),

huh? What is my job, according to you?

> users complaining about lack of bug fixes
> w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of
> resources &
> have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to
> begin with?

Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1.

Uh, if they have developer resources going into backporting bugfixes
into them, then yes, the more you have, the more expensive it is.

>
> The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to
> the internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:
> <https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.libreoffice.org/download>
>
> On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is
> only
> download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to
> 4.0 or
> 'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
> earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?
>
> @TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December
> 2013 & keep it simple.

@Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were
already complaining about the same things.

> IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your
> dev efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as
> a user) hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug
> report I'll have to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v
> 'Still' v 'Daily' v 'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug
> because these folks are spread so thin across the various
> "branches" that they can't properly concentrate on a baseline
> release fix?
>
> @Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that
> bugs will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to
> mind, but I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our
> RC (X.Y.0) and
> use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
> announce/promote here or elsewhere.
>
> @Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a
> new name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are
> welcome to contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is
> necessary, nor should it
> be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
> marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead
> invite the
> "private marketing list" members to participate in this thread,
> this is afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that
> may want to do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this
> "private marketing
> list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a
> transcript of the "private marketing list" contents so that others
> on this "open source" project can review?

Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users
are our future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy
things from us and users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds
crazy to you, we do highly encourage users to join our various teams.
As for the private marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for
press/announcement preparations, otherwise news and text elements
would be disclosed before due date. How do you join this list? Good
question. By contributing, not by complaining, and by asking. And if
that's not your call, we have plenty of other teams for you to join :
https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/

If that's still not your call, and you just want to use
LibreOffice... that's fine! we are happy that you do so.

>
> Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private
> marketing list" decision to go with the existing
> 'Fresh/Still/whatever' download page(s). Please consider simply
> rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.

Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed a
brand new website, asked for feedback on several completely open and
public lists for several months.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the change being raised on
this list?

#77

Hi :slight_smile:
Quite!!

Ubuntu makes it very clear that their LTS is more stable and that their
other branch is more exciting. They don't force all new users into using
their least stable branch. Instead of making it complicated and difficult
to change versions they make it easy. Instead of hiding behind misleading
words they make it very clear what the difference is and they do it in just
a very few words.

They don't make claims about their 6monthly releases being wonderfully
stable. They don't make claims about them getting support for quite a long
time. They could do easily but they don't. And why not? Why don't they
make such claims? The answer is because those are not the "Unique Selling
Point" of the 6monthlies. More than that, it would become confusing
because those are the main USPs of their other branch.

Heck trying to make such claims about the 6 monthlies would put people off
because it would lead to constant confusion and constant questions about
what the difference is between their 2 branches.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#78

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, i understand now. You don't mean to be insulting and don't even
notice when you do it.

Your statement, "As for customer service, we don't do customer service.",
well said. I'm not sure who the "we" is. It doesn't include almost anyone
on this mailing list since the whole reason for this mailing list is to
provide "customer service". It is what most of us are here for.

Your "please describe, step by step". Actually we deal with people here.
It's not like programming. There are rarely logical steps.

A first response might be to point them to documentation that covers
exactly what was asked. Ideally would summarise and simplify but would
also ask for more detail and/or background information. So there are 3
things that would seem to be vital but actually most of the time it's none
of those that really helped. The main thing that helped was an
acknowledgement that the question was heard by a human being. After that
the question starts to emerge. It's best when several people each jump in
with different types of answers or dealing with different aspect of what
the question might be. The o.p. tends to start responding to 1 of those
people and that tends to indicate the direction that the real question is
about.

For example a good answer to the question "My curtains are a bit charred.
How do i stop them getting like that?" might be "Grab your bag and leave
the building. Your house is on fire". Sometimes it takes a bit of a leap
like that. It's seldom something that can fit neatly into step-by-step
instructions.

Your ""I was on the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid
argument" IS very belittling.
When something is finally fixed and has been working well do you assume
that the people who worked so hard on it would then go and break it?

I think most of us were guilty of assuming that once a thing was fixed and
could be happily maintained with little or no effort that attention would
move onto things that were still broken to fix them too. I can't believe
so much work has gone into breaking something that was fine. If the
web-designers really wanted to fix something how about helping all the
international translators sort theirs out? How about moving into UI or UX
design and lending a hand there. It's not like there is a shortage of
interesting things to do!
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#79

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, i understand now. You don't mean to be insulting and don't even
notice when you do it.

Your statement, "As for customer service, we don't do customer
service.",
well said. I'm not sure who the "we" is. It doesn't include almost
anyone
on this mailing list since the whole reason for this mailing list is to
provide "customer service". It is what >most of us are here for.

But you are not providing customer service. nothing going on here is customer service. Do you have a set of scripts and processes you have been told to follow? Are people here paying for this service? No. And that's quite normal because this is not a place for customer service. It is however a place for users support done for free and delivered as a community, centered on a software that is not a product but a community delivered set of stable versions.

Your "please describe, step by step". Actually we deal with people
here.
It's not like programming. There are >rarely logical steps.

People usually try to be logical when using an office suite. I asked you if you could describe problems encountered by people when trying to contribute to LibreOffice. Still no answer.

A first response might be to point them to documentation that covers
exactly what was asked. Ideally would summarise and simplify but would
also ask for more detail and/or background information. So there are 3
things that would seem to be vital but actually most of the time it's
none
of those that really helped. The main thing that helped was an
acknowledgement that the question was heard by a human being. After
that
the question starts to emerge. It's best when several people each jump
in
with different types of answers or dealing with different aspect of
what
the question might be. The o.p. tends to start responding to 1 of
those
people and that tends to indicate the direction that the real question
is
about.

For example a good answer to the question "My curtains are a bit
charred.
How do i stop them getting like that?" might be "Grab your bag and
leave
the building. Your house is on fire". Sometimes it takes a bit of a
leap
like that. It's seldom something that can fit neatly into step-by-step
instructions.

Your ""I was on the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid
argument" IS very belittling.
When something is finally fixed and has been working well do you assume
that the people who worked so hard on it >would then go and break it?

We do work very hard to break everything we build. Absolutely . And we do it for the sole reason of driving you nuts.

I think most of us were guilty of assuming that once a thing was fixed
and
could be happily maintained with little or no effort that attention
would
move onto things that were still broken to fix them too. I can't
believe
so much work has gone into breaking something that was fine. If the
web-designers really wanted to fix something how about helping all the
international translators sort theirs out? How about moving into UI or
UX
design and lending a hand there. It's not like there is a shortage of
interesting things to do!

Tom : you are becoming really funny to talk to.

Best,

Charles.

#80

...

@TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December 2013 &
keep it simple.

@Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were already
complaining about the same things.

I'll forgo responding to your other personal references to me on this
list...

"Noop has always complained
about the two branches and the release pace. It does not make their
opinion invalid, but I'm suggesting a pattern here."
etc.

Certainly I do not come onto the marketing list and attempt personal
attacks on you. I wonder why you feel it necessary to do so here.

However, in looking over the 26 posts that I made here in 2010, I fail
to find one "complaining about the same things".

I suppose of the 840 posts that I've made here over the past 4 years,
some are bound to be critical at times. However I reckon that overall
I've tried to assist & be helpful. But of course you didn't start
posting (92 to date) here until 2013, so you may have missed a few where
I've gone out of my way to test & try and help other users resolve
issues via multiple versions and OS's - often all the same thread.

I've also contributed to, or created, bug reports in an effort to assist
as well. (I see that your entire contribution on the bug reports is one
bug having you on the cc list only.)

Not to worry Charles, I'll not bother with this list further. Y'all have
a great day.

Gary Lee

...

#81

Unfortunately, this is not always true. Ubuntu 12.04 LTS was based on a
buggy Unity, and although it was supported for a longer term than 12.10
(just to make an example) it was far less stable (because of the Unity
bugs solved in the meantime).

Ubuntu 14.04 LTS will probably be a different story, because Unity is
more stable. LTS means Long Term Support, and this sometimes translates
into a mess if the user thinks that LTS = more stable. In Italy, we had
complaints about LibreOffice from people trying to use Ubuntu 12.04 LTS
for enterprise deployments, which have been solved by using a non LTS
version of Ubuntu.

Again, the last version is always the best one for most users.
Suggesting the older version for enterprise deployments is just showing
an additional level of user care by offering an alternative to people
with a different update cycle.

#82

Florian Reisinger wrote

Hi,The problem we have: We do not have one release branch as Firefox has,
we have two... Users should use and find bugs on the "Fresh" version in
order to make thee fresh, which will be renamed to stable after 6M.So how
to say "you can use the feature packed fresh"? It is not an RC it is an
tested final release....So yes, we have a different model, so we need
different names then the standard :slight_smile:

Two suggestions:1. Do not use misrepresentation through soft or ambiguous
language <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTzZaev8bmM> in order to
deliberately misdirect users to download the unstable branch. This is NOT
how to garner good will. Use plain simple language like Debian's: Testing,
Unstable, Stable, Old Stable.2. Instead of trying to misdirect people to
the Unstable version, *make it easy for people to use both the unstable and
the stable version AT THE SAME TIME*. Right now your Unstable base
consists of two groups: the Willing and those that have been Misled into
using it.Normal end users might be willing to use the Unstable branch if
they KNEW they could just click on the Stable branch icon and work in that
if something crashed and they needed to get work done. Read that: time
constraints. Regards.

#83

Hi :slight_smile:
That is the sort of argument MANY on this Mailing List agree with. Please
take it to the Discus Mailing List and maybe the social networking channels
if you really want to get heard but it's going to make you unpopular. I am
on fairly permanent moderation due to daring to say such things.
Good luck and regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#84

Hi nn,

[...]
...2. Instead of trying to misdirect people to
the Unstable version, [...]

I'm sorry to say, but you didn't inform yourself well enough before
writing. As explained before - in this thread too - both Still and Fresh
are stable.

IMO all we can learn from this discussion is that better explanation at
the website is a fair wish.

If people here are able to write that, comprehensive though brief, and
maybe also are skilled to help with the site itself: more then welcome.

Kind regards,
Cor

#85

Hi Tom,

That is the sort of argument MANY on this Mailing List agree with. Please
take it to the Discus Mailing List and maybe the social networking channels
if you really want to get heard but it's going to make you unpopular.

What you wrote here looks as nonsense to me, if alone due to the fact
that the post you react on is ill-informed.

I am on fairly permanent moderation due to daring to say such things.

Well, AFAIK it's because sometimes your 'mixed quality' writings are
that much disturbing (misleading), that the hope is that moderation will
keep you a bit sharp - on the positive side. It's not because you have
or write ideas sometimes that may not be the same as 'people higher up'
- whomever that may be at a given moment, and whether or not those share
a same opinion.
On the other hand: your positive tone and the wide range of topics that
you tend to explain, are of course much appreciated.

Good luck and regards from

Yeah - thanks :slight_smile:
Kind regards,
Cor