MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

Hi :slight_smile:
This is all just my own opinion and i am not even a member of TDF and not even vaguely aware of their thoughts or opinions except where they annoy me by disagreeing with what i want but ...

+1

To make people buy it MS have to do everything they can to ensure that everyone thinks they MUST the newest MS Office even though they probably don't.  "The Emperor’s New Clothes" is such an excellent story to read to gain an insight into how MS works.  After reading it one finds that so much of what MS do makes so much more sense.  It helps separate fact from FUD.  Bear in mind that MS is a profit-making US company with almost all it's shareholders being US citizens.  It sometimes sells software to make that profit so the software is not it's main aim.  It's main aim is profit.

Errr, if this post gets me chucked off the list then so long chaps and chap-esses.  It's been good fun here :slight_smile:
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
I like the modular approach rather than the "One size fits all".  I especially like that you can choose different elements to make-up the whole of what you need from an Office Suite.

As Andreas and NoOp pointed-out many office users have no need for an emailing system at all so we really don't need to hear about what is going on in projects that add that functionality.  Obviously LibreOffice needs to continue supplying core features and some modules that don't get used by one user may well get used by another or be needed as a one-off.

I don't use Draw often and the features i do occasionally use are a bit basic but they are useful.  I probably use about 2% of what Draw offers and i think anyone using Draw would have to use at least the 2% i use before they even notice they are using Draw at all, or if not they probably have used the dialogues in Writer or elsewhere to change size&position of images.

However i think there probably are some features that could be taken out of the main LibreOffice that everyone gets and just have them as Extensions or even as separate programs that can integrate well with LO.  For my colleagues it would be nice to have a Calendar that is easier to find and integrate, for example.  But i haven't found any sort of calendar, either on-screen or off, that works for me
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

I was thinking about the very complex things, or at least very complex for most users I know, that even is hard to figure out with the "official MSO" documentation books that takes months and years of working with it to get it to work properly most times you want to those options. I know a few people that are "consultants" that do the things that most business users do not have the time or skills to learn how to do these complex options that they insist that they need, even though they really do not.

I have seen how much it costs to bring in the "consultants" and if the business use would do some extra steps himself/herself in their work cycle, then they would not need those complex options. Most times the extra man-hours per year cost less than the "consultant fees" each year.
.

The issue then is not features but proper program design that balances
speed, opening speed, and available features. A small core that calls
small modules for specific features when needed versus a monolithic bloc
that most load everything at once.

Hi :slight_smile:

MS Office is only released about once every 3 years or thereabouts, sometimes every 4 years.  LibreOffice typically has 2 new branches per year.  There might be an argument for some sort of big generic book that is very vague and even so quickly becomes out-dated but i think the documentation that the team does produce is just about perfect.
1.  A good general introduction to LO as a whole and to each individual app/major-module
2.  Guides for each app/major-module showing off new features and with screen-shots

People do produce video's and how-tos for specific things and it would be nice to list them or even host them in a co-ordinated way rather than just scattered in individual people's personal channels in YouTube.  However i think there would be an enormous amount of work involved in coordinating that and time is probably better spent on just continuing to be prolific and hoping that people can find stuff with google or YouTube searches.

If you have a YouTube channel with a lot of LO (or even just OO) stuff then feel free to add a link to it in the section on the docs team's wiki page
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
or more precisely
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#Other_Documentation_and_Resources
or feel free to add a link for someone else's channel if you find something even vaguely useful.  If that section grows large enough then we can always put a link in there to redirect people to another dedicated sub-page.  We could make a page such as

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/VideoTutorials
and/or
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/HowTos
but we would need waaay more than 1 or 2 for such pages.  Around 10 might be a good start.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

For Calendars:
computer based - Lightning add-on for Thunderbird, Easy Calendar for stand-alone - is what I tell people to use
printed ones - I make my own from templates, either Writer or Calc types and place 2 months at a time on the refrigerator, current month over the following month.

Having stand-alone package like Word and Excel would be nice for some people, but since so much of LO's core is the same for most of its modules, it makes sense to make it a single package with loader-icons to open to different modules instead of opening the general menu all the time.

Yes, there are parts of LO that I do not use. I never really used Math and Base. I am looking into Draw more and more, but I still use other graphics packages I have used for years over Draw. I rarely use Impress, but have create some presentations with LO before. Writer and Calc are the two modules I deal with most often. Yet, I still think it would not make sense to split LO into its parts.

Tom Davies wrote:

For my colleagues it would be nice to have a Calendar that is easier to find and integrate, for example. But i haven't found any sort of calendar, either on-screen or off, that works for me

I use Lightning with Thunderbird and Seamonkey. I also sync it with Google Calenar, so I have it on my computers, tablet and smart phone. Google Calendar can also be accessed with any browser. Syncing Lightning with Google Calendar requires an add-on such as "Provider for Google Calendar".

Hi

Have any of you seen a template for an office suite that comes close
to a document your will actually publish?

I have not seen a single one in Microsoft Office. Give me templates
that pop off the page and I will change suite any day.

User
80%

My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of
macros would be the second group

Objection.

The point is that those people who actually use "office software" in
companies have absolutely no influence on what they work with. It's the
manangsters and administrictators who (pretend to) "decide" about this.

because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they
languages they learned as an undergraduate)

I don't know any scientist or engineer who has ever learned Visual
Basic at university. And I know only *very* few who have *ever* learned
it at all.

and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not
programming.

A lot of scientists and engineers, if they use any scripting/programming
languages for "software automation" etc. tend to prefer languages that
provide an interactive commandline interpreter, besides other criteria
that VBA doesn't fulfil. A lot of those I know have learned Python as
their genuine "bread and butter" scripting & programming language. Some
even learn it as a "first language" at university these days.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Most features one needs have been include in office suites since the
some time in the 90's. I can not think of a feature that I want see
implemented that is not already implemented.

Objection.

instead of braindeadly cloning MS "features", which are mostly based on
cerebral flatulances emanating from "product managers" and similar
pointy-haired lifeforms, free software should imho instead demonstrate
how to increase user productivity by focusing on intelligent functional
concepts.

For example:

- genuine "structure markup", like e.g. Wordperfect or Framemaker
provide. Instead of the "spaghetti" document model of MS Word.

- readable typesetting, such as e.g. LaTeX provides.

- possibilities to structure spreadsheets (like e.g. Lotus 1-2-3 did or
Quantrix Modeler still provides), use symbolic variable names (same
examples to follow) and a reasonably human-readable formula syntax
instead of the nestable-functional "spaghetti" mess à la Excel.

- actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX
Beamer provides.

- etc. and so on....

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but never
really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to offer that LO is
not capable of.

As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every feature
of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current WYSIWYG). I strongly
believe that target group of LibreOffice is different than target group of LaTeX.
LaTeX is already free, vital community exists, there are dedicated editors -
users who prefer LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX.

HI :slight_smile:
+1
It might be nice to have an Extension that allows people to import LaTeX or have a program that can export a LaTeX document to Odf but it's not something that many people would use.  I doubt it would even be usefully possible.  A lot of the advantage of the format would be lost when converting it.

A far better example than my stupid earlier one of spell checkers.  Many of us have probably never even heard of LaTeX but are somewhat reliant on decent spell checkers (ie NOT the MS ones). 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

As an engineer, now retired, I used BASIC for many years, then took
a class in Pascal and wrote some code in Pascal. You are correct--
all I wanted, in almost all cases, was command-line input and screen
or print (or both) output. I first wrote BASIC on a teletype machine
connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe somewhere in Texas.
Eventually I went to work for an outfit that had an HP "desktop"--
a great big machine about 3 feet high that saved files on cassette
tape, and used HP-BASIC, which was a bit more powerful than the
standard. Finally there was a company that had a CPM machine,
and I could do standard BASIC in house. That's also where I first
wrote Pascal. It wasn't Borland, it was somebody else's, I don't
remember the name. When PCs became affordable, Borland's
Pascal came out, and it was nice, especially at first, before they
complicated it! The nearest thing I ever got to graphics was a
batch of xxx pr *** marks printed on a sheet of paper! Crude
graphics indeed, but you could see the general shape of a filter
characteristic.

I never wanted to learn Visual Basic or the Pascal equivalent--I forget
what it was called. I was too busy doing engineering, and the tool
that I had was sufficient at the time. That's not to say that I didn't use
commercial graphical programs when they came out. I made a
great deal of use of them, but I also realized that a whole lot of
hours and a lot of abstruse math went into them, and that's not
what I was there to do. EEsof's Touchstone and the AutoCAD
programs saved a tremendous amount of time and breadboarding,
and I'm sure they paid for themselves, even at their exorbitant
prices.

--doug

Wolfgang

What language one first learns is often determined by what is used in
the "Introduction to Programming" courses and of course when you took
the course. I know a few colleges used VB for their introductory course
in the States. I know of Canadian university that uses Python. What
type of programming you do determines the language you tend use and find
in your work place.

Whether one learned VB depends on ones situation and needs. I have done
some VBA programming because where I worked need some automation of
spreadsheet calculations for Excel spreadsheets. We did light process
design and project management in the office I was at.

My intro to programming was originally in Fortran IV (aka Fortrash) and
later Pascal.

I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account.

I have them somewhere.
. . . .
Here they are. I remembered I had them on the NA-DVD but did not add links to them in the Lightning section of the Extras page. I have never used them since I do not have a Google mail or calendar account [I think].

http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-win32-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi

<http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi>http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi>gdata-provider.xpi <http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi>

http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-mac-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi>gdata-provider.xpi <http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-mac-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi>
.

No it doesn't - and the latest version of Calendar Sync is a bit flakey.
You can use Caldav instead which doesn't need an add-on.
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird

Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all.
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird

I don't see anything about Lightning/Thunderbird support...

If it actually does work in Thunderbird+Lightning, do you know if it works properly interacting with Meeting Requests/Invitations/Updates from users using Outlook/Exchange? The current Thunderbird+Lightning+Provider for Google Calendar doesn't (works halfway, but Updates are totally broken)...

All the best LibO folks,
This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also useful -- but back to the basic question!
Microsoft is going to change their behavior.

Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying.
It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and expresses your foolishness. LibO only have to accept it.

Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly.
That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay what ever the cost.

What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included -- equal is far away from enough.

Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - seldom use more than a 2-5% of the LibO's (MSO's) features.
Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure that at least these work properly -- Base included.

If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use -- and especially it's help function understandable for every new user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten.
I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy.
If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at least not disappear.
Pertti Rönnberg

Hi :slight_smile:
On the contrary. MS do not fix their problems quickly at all.  Even known malware threats remain for months and even years.  Their strategy is to blame the users.  A typical one being to tell users they shouldn't be using macros because of the likelihood of getting an infected or corrupted one.  Read "The Emperor’s New Clothes".  People are told that MS Office is the best and so when they find problems with it they tend to blame themselves rather than the software.

For example when using non-MS software someone would quite happily slate the product with this sort of thing "I opened my document and deleted tons of stuff and saved it using the same name.  now when i open the document it has all that stuff missing!  The stupid program can't even find the stuff that i deleted.  No, of course i don't have a back-up of the file before my deletions"

One problem that has never been solved is that when creating an MS document the style keeps randomly changing without the user doing anything noticeable.  So, the language keeps switching to US.  Bullet-points and numbering styles keep changing.  So in a bulleted list the points keep changing shape, size and amount they are indented by.  Numbered lists may well miss a few numbers or repeat a few or suddenly change from i), ii) to c), d) or other weirdness.

People have learned to accept all this shoddiness from Word because it happens to so many people.  Really advanced users have learned to re-impose formatting after completing a document or just accept it.

Spelling has gone out the window not just because of the MTV generation but also because MS's spell-checker keeps switching languages back into American (US) so things that are correct are sometimes given a red-wriggle and sometimes blatantly incorrect spellings are not found.

LibreOffice tends to stick to the same style throughout, unless the user has deliberately changed styles and is aware of having done so.  So, bullet-points line-up and retain the same size.  Likewise with numbered lists.

Another problem is the way Word can't handle images with much sophistication.  MS produce a different product for people to buy.  Publisher.  Most of the functionality of publisher wouldn't be needed if Word wasn't such a Pos.  Writer handles most things that Publisher does with more elegance and sophistication.

Another problem is the limited choices when exporting to Pdf.  I often get posters and stuff from Word users that probably looked quite good at their end but the jpg compression has made a mad swirly mess of it.  LibreOffice allows you to set the type of compression and even allows people to create uncompressed Pdfs.  Pdfs can be created with various levels of integration with screen-readers for blind-users.  MS Word has limited options.

So, LO already is a far better product in many, many ways but people have learned to accept problems with MS stuff and are even happy when their machine is heavily infected with malware that results from using MS junk.

Just my opinion and doubtless many people, especially the BoD disagree. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile: