Problem with formatted text

users
#61

A program is intuitive if it matches something in our previous experience. Before computers, business professionals used typewriters. If you want a computer to be intuitive, you need to make it work as much like a typewriter as possible. (I'm still amazed that, after 30+ years, the typewriter remains the model of the word processing user interface, even for those who have never touched a typewriter.)

But, by making it intuitive, you lose the power of the computer. To gain the power of the computer, old dogs need to learn new tricks, like paragraph styles, which isn't intuitive.

Virgil

#62

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44871
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46986

Will wonders never cease... The first one has been assigned to someone. <grin>

Maybe there's hope after all, as I've got a list from long ago that I never bothered to file as these were never addressed and assigned, so I never bothered.

#63

Hi, Mirosław,

Interspersed reply below.

As I noted in private email, LO still has not assigned two bugs I filed
to anyone yet. They are classified a low priority. As I mentioned, the
issues are not low priority to me, so if they don't want to fix them,
I'll pay for a program where the developers do care to fix the low
priority issues.

This is how open source works.
There are some companies (in LO: mainly RedHat and Novell) that hire full-time
developers. They work on anything that helps reaching companies goals.
Also, there is bunch of guys who just hack in their spare time. They work on
anything they find interesting or solve their own problems.

I've known that for a long time, but others reading this may not.

But the company's goals should be to meet the user's goals first. If you don't meet your users goals, your level of success will never reach the top. You'll have a group of people bad mouthing your product, regardless of the product. People saying the product doesn't do what you want is OK, but people saying your product is broken is not.

If your issues does not fall to interest of any of above groups, there is
still chance to get it solved: hire a freelance developer who will get thing
done.

Simply for the sake of discussion... We should be talking about the average user of LO, not the those users that are capable of programming the changes, or knowing how go about hiring someone to do the job. If LO or any product, open source, commercial, bucket making, is to increase the number of users, you've got to pay attention to the users that can not make the changes on their own.

Because LO is open source, you are not on the mercy of some company. You can
take matters into your own hands and do something.

And I'm one of those users that possesses neither the time, money, nor interest in creating a change. A change that may not be compatible with any other LO produced file.

Or you can buy some other software. You don't have to use LibreOffice.

Exactly. For open source, I could try Open Office and Lotus Symphony. And there are 3 commercial products I'm going to look at, one of which may possibly be a better match for me than LO. I did not know of this product when I started with LO.

I first started with 8-bit computers, and would buy every new word processor that came out until I finally found one that worked for me. I never said the others were "crap", just that they didn't do what I wanted to do. :slight_smile:

#64

I totally agree, especially for the technical side of things.

But it would be so much easier if people would just read the manual.

OH!! Wait! No one makes manuals for their products any more! LOL

LO is to be commended for bucking the trend in this area.

#65

I'm not so sure that by making it intuitive, you lose the power of the computer. And I will stipulate that what is intuitive to one user is not to another. My Mac drove me up the wall sometimes, in this area. Windows? Not a problem. But I've got a friend that is the exact opposite. OS X not a problem for her, but never did understand Windows.

What needs to be stressed/taught, is "try something". Be inquisitive about the computer. "What happens if I do X?"

I often try to mix features between Win and OS X, so it does what I wish and makes sense to me. Right now, I'm trying to get OS X's sidebar view in Finder to be similar to the Win Explorer's Navigation Pane. So far, with no success. :frowning: So, if anyone knows of a way... LOL

#66

Doug,

I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles
is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing.

Styles are, obviously, a step towards DTP but, as you emphasize, a word processor is no DTP (as much as a word processor is no typewriter). Styles are a very powerful tool that makes ordinary users -- who do not intend to publish, just have correctly crafted documents -- gain time and energy. And, in the business, time is money.

But I can see what you're hinting: for those users who want to actually publish, such a tool like Scribus is the way to go. I share this thought, but DTP is a whole other beast that requires training on its own.

I'm not ashamed to say that I use
word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very
happy to have this glorified typewriter

There's a very wide gap between a typewriter -- as glorified as it could be -- and a word processor. I'm always insisting to users forget the typewriter (even if they never really use any, or even touched any) and acquire the concepts of word processors.

BTW, do you know the hardware piece where the evil comes from? The keyboard. A typewriter kb and a computer one are not the same although they look alike. They just look too much alike and the trainer has to show they are different.

#67

From: Ken Springer [snowshed1@q.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 7:49 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44871
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46986

Will wonders never cease... The first one has been assigned to someone.

Actually, FDO bug 44871 has been "assigned" since the date it was submitted during QA bug triage. But that means exactly squat since Cedric did not assign himself (indicating he accepted and was working on it).

Assignment is just not a tool that has a lot of meaning in the LibreOffice project (and most other FOSS) because, as has been mentioned, development and quashing of bugs is driven by the interests of the respective developers. Some developers will assign to themselves, some will not--personal choice.

Maybe there's hope after all, as I've got a list from long ago that I
never bothered to file as these were never addressed and assigned, so I
never bothered.

Can't help but notice that in the ensuing time you have moved from OSX 10.6.8 to your current 10.8.3 build, yet YOU have not filed additional updates or status regards either issue. Truth is issues with OSX builds require a lot of care and feeding given the rapid changes to Apples APIs. If you want things fixed you have to be engaged and nurture the issues you raise. Please take the time to research the FDO Bugzilla ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/query.cgi?format=advanced&product=LibreOffice ) and if not already identified, submit as new issues items from your list.

You should have a look at the OSX issues meta bug https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42082 and you'll get some idea.

Regarding fdo#44871, the labeling as Distribute Rows Equally is clearly wrong. Its function is documented as "Space Rows Equally" -- Adjusts the height of the selected rows to match the height of the tallest row in the selection, which it does. So what you were really asking for is an enhancement. Which as was pointed out in comments to 44871 would receive the best review on the UX-Advise list. Did you follow up there? Just looked and saw no record.

So, I've opened a new enhancement request in fdo#64242 and asked the UX-Advise list for discussion--essentially for handling Table columns and rows the UX is a bit muddled between Distribute and Equal Spacing actions.

Stuart

#68

I write letters--where I have a heading saved as a file that I can import--and I write occasionally for publication, in which case I write double-spaced,
extra space for paragraph, and no indent. I don't need any kind of "style" to do that--I can set the double space once per article--that is no more
trouble than finding and turning on a preset style, which I could only do if I knew how to create it in the first place. And I edit material sent for a
newsletter of some 1000 circulation, for which the publisher uses Pagemaker on a Mac to format it. I don't know, but I think any kind of style
setting would go bonkers seeing the formats that come in and trying to mold them into something consistent. I mold them fairly easily in a word
processor, by hand. And I save in MS .doc 1997~2003 format, because everybody in the world can read that. And I write emails, and all I need to
do is fix typos, which styles can't do!

I rest my case. --doug

#69

Hi :slight_smile:
I am not sure if people are aware but under Sun a lot of bugs just got ignored or left to rot because the aim at that time was stability.  If a bug is known about and still exists in a new version then that qualifies as being "stable".  Unstable is where you can't rely on long running bugs still being around.  If you are not sure whether something has been fixed or not then it really means the thing is unstable.  Companies using the program may have written work-around or patches that they applied each time to each new release but if a particular problem had been sorted out in a newer version then should such a company apply their patch or not!  So, Sun wanted "stability" so that companies could rely on all the problems being well known.

Hmm, does that sound a tad bitter?  I wasn't even around for that.  I used Go-oo without even knowing that it wasn't pure OOo for the last couple of years that OOo was under Sun.  Before that i was an MS fanboy.

Under TDF the main aim has been to declutter all the code, streamline it, remove old outdate comments and translate the remaining ones into English.  Also re-writting chunks done in weird languages, such as Java, in order to consolidate it into just 1 language throughout and generally de-spaghettfy it.  At the same time they have also managed to add in 'new' functionality to help bring the program out of the late 90's and well into this century.  They've also fixed quite a lot of bugs although mostly that has been to try to make it compatible with the latest changes in the MS formats.  I think they have done a remarkable job.

Now it should be easier to address individuals bugs.  Many of which have probably just dropped out due to the de-spaghettifying.

You could help by test-driving the latest beta-release each time and adding a comment to your bug-report to let people know that it still exists.  if you leave bug-reports until after release then less people will be looking into it.  Pre-release catches the attention of the most devs.

I don't think it's fair to blame TDF for the failures of Oracle or Sun and it's not fair to assume that just because your pet peeves haven't been sorted by Sun that they are not going to be sorted under TDF. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#70

Hi, Stuart,

I hope my manual reformatting of your reply works out. Most of the time, there's a failure somewhere down the road. :frowning: You are the 2nd poster whose messages display correctly, but do not format correctly when using the Reply/Followup option in Thunderbird. I do not know where the fault lays.

From: Ken Springer [snowshed1@q.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 7:49 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44871
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46986

Will wonders never cease... The first one has been assigned to someone.

Actually, FDO bug 44871 has been "assigned" since the date it was submitted

> during QA bug triage. But that means exactly squat since Cedric did not
> assign himself (indicating he accepted and was working on it).

Assignment is just not a tool that has a lot of meaning in the LibreOffice project

> (and most other FOSS) because, as has been mentioned, development and
> quashing of bugs is driven by the interests of the respective developers. Some
> developers will assign to themselves, some will not--personal choice.

I've noticed that in other FOSS software. :frowning:

IMO, that's not a professional approach, and has to change for any FOSS project to be considered for going head to head with good commercial software.

I seem to be one of the dwindling few that have not lowered their standards to get along with the rest of the world. As George Bernard Shaw said, "Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people."

Maybe there's hope after all, as I've got a list from long ago that I
never bothered to file as these were never addressed and assigned, so I
never bothered.

Can't help but notice that in the ensuing time you have moved from OSX

> 10.6.8 to your current 10.8.3 build, yet YOU have not filed additional
> updates or status regards either issue. Truth is issues with OSX builds
> require a lot of care and feeding given the rapid changes to Apples APIs.
> If you want things fixed you have to be engaged and nurture the issues
> you raise. Please take the time to research the FDO Bugzilla
> ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/query.cgi?format=advanced&product=LibreOffice )
> and if not already identified, submit as new issues items from your list.

That's because I quit checking on their status over a year ago, when I was still using 10.6.8. :slight_smile: The only reason I know now is because Milos wanted to know the Bugzilla numbers.

And because nothing was happening, I lost any interest in even reporting other issues I found. That's a two-way street. If my submissions aren't of any import to them, why should I help? I can simply go buy a program that works. :slight_smile:

You should have a look at the OSX issues meta bug

> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42082
> and you'll get some idea.

There's a lot of work to be done, but fixing the interface is eye candy if the features and functions don't perform. I originally started out with NeoOffice, and when I found issues there, I discovered I had to pay to post in the NeoOffice forum. Not going to happen. I pay my car mechanic to fix the problem, not tell him about the problem. I've not used NeoOffice since.

Regarding fdo#44871, the labeling as Distribute Rows Equally is clearly

> wrong. Its function is documented as "Space Rows Equally" -- Adjusts the
> height of the selected rows to match the height of the tallest row in the selection,
< which it does. So what you were really asking for is an enhancement. Which as
> was pointed out in comments to 44871 would receive the best review on the
> UX-Advise list. Did you follow up there? Just looked and saw no record.

"... is clearly wrong." Your words. :slight_smile: That means error, something needs to be fixed. I just checked, http://thesaurus.com/browse/enhancement?s=t and nowhere will you find the word fix or similar listed as a synonym for the word enhancement.

A bug is something that needs to be fixed, not made prettier, not something new added. <grin>

So, I've opened a new enhancement request in fdo#64242 and asked the UX-Advise list

> for discussion--essentially for handling Table columns and rows the UX is a bit
> muddled between Distribute and Equal Spacing actions.

I actually think both ideas would be valid.

#71

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
*  Text editor = plain text with no formatting

*  Word-processors allow you to add little bits of formatting as and when you want.  Results look a little different on each different machine but it's easy for people to edit and collaborate.  It's more about the process of writing than about the final result

*  Desktop publishing is all about the final result.  Consistent, well laid out.  The same on every machine and every printer.

LibreOffice seems to straddle both word-processing and, to some extent, desktop publishing.  It can be used just as a word-processor, like Word, but then you miss the opportunity of getting faster and better results.  The important thing, imo, is that it's your choice.  Many of us start using it just as a word-processor and then take advantage of the extra bits once we have worked out the style we want to aim for with the document.  Sometimes the document is already finished before we've even thought about layout and it looks fine.  You don't need to have any clue about how the final document will look when you start.  You can just jump in and figure it out as you go along.

LaTex, Inkscape(?), Scribus and others are almost purely about Desktop Publishing.  You kinda have to know what you are aiming for before you start.  You probably can "rough it" a bit but it's going to be awkward.

Just my thoughts from what people have written in this thread and from my own limited experiences.

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

#72

Doug wrote,

<snip>

I write letters--where I have a heading saved as a file that I can
import--and I write occasionally for publication, in which case I write
double-spaced,
extra space for paragraph, and no indent. I don't need any kind of
"style" to do that--I can set the double space once per article--that is
no more
trouble than finding and turning on a preset style, which I could only
do if I knew how to create it in the first place.

If I understand correctly your uses, sounds like all you need is two templates, and that would amount to the same thing. :slight_smile: Be quicker too, since you wouldn't have to import anything into a new document.

And I edit material
sent for a
newsletter of some 1000 circulation, for which the publisher uses
Pagemaker on a Mac to format it. I don't know, but I think any kind of
style
setting would go bonkers seeing the formats that come in and trying to
mold them into something consistent.

This sounds almost the exact way I'd have you do it if I was the publisher. I'd tell you to do nothing but paragraph breaks, use a quality serif font to make proof reading easier on the eyes, and that would be it. Don't even indent the paragraphs, nor add extra space between paragraphs. Everything else and more can be done easily in Pagemaker, which is what the program is for.

I mold them fairly easily in a word
processor, by hand. And I save in MS .doc 1997~2003 format, because
everybody in the world can read that.

I would save in plain text, then the publisher has no formatting to worry about deleting or cleaning up. Plus, the overall file size would then be smaller.

And I write emails, and all I need to
do is fix typos, which styles can't do!

Grammar checkers, and spell checkers, aren't perfect either. :slight_smile:

#73

It's really a case of people using the wrong tool for their job. Like anything else, no one size fits all.

From your description of what you use the program for in another post, it sounds to me like even LO is far more than you need. If you use Windows, you might be able to use just the Wordpad accessory. Or Abiword, Kingsoft Office Free, and other less powerful programs.

My uses tend to be in the middle range. Wordpad, or TextEdit on the Mac, doesn't offer enough formatting options or abilities. And Pagemaker, Quark Express, Calamus, and high end page layout programs are vast overkill. So a good word processor, document processor, or low end page layout software suits my uses fine.

IMO, too many users simply take others' advice rather than experimenting and learning for themselves.

#74

<snip>

LaTex, Inkscape(?), Scribus and others are almost purely about Desktop

> Publishing. You kinda have to know what you are aiming for before you start.
< You probably can "rough it" a bit but it's going to be awkward.

Just my thoughts from what people have written in this thread and from my own limited experiences.

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

Inkscape is not a DTP program. It's a vector grahics program, like Corel Draw. You can use it to make an ad for the newspaper, or a one page flyer, but no way do want to try a booklet or something else with it.

Never used LaTex, but isn't it geared more to doing math and science documents where proper formula formatting is important?

<snipping the rest)

#75

I blame neither Oracle or Sun for anything. I've never even used those versions, I started with some version of NeoOffice, then to LO 3.x, I think.

What irks me is there seem to have been time to add features (that may or may not work) yet not do much to address known issues.

#76

Hi :slight_smile:
Yes, i can see your point and agree with it somewhat.

However i wanted to point out that without new features LO falls behind the competition and fails to attract new people to join in.  With the new features people are attracted to it because it becomes clearer that just about anyone can get involved.  Like with the early stages of an app store.  You don't have to apply for a job and go through the recruitment process and promise stuff and commit to a contracted number of hours to do as you are told for a time period of a year or something.  Like with an app store people can just jump in, do their thing, maybe take on more and walk away when they feel like it or if other commitments take over.  Just how easy is it to get the chance to write something that gets released within a year if trying to add functionality to MS Office?  So, new features are important for many reasons.

Also that a shed load of work has gone into LO that will make it easier to hunt down and fix bugs where previously it would have been a complete nightmare.  We can start to expect more bugs to get fixed now.  The momentum is changing from cleaning to doing.

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

#77

Of course, everybody's work is different. From what you described you could use Notepad and get the job done.

However, as an attorney, I write legal briefs. They require a title page with no page numbers, front matter consisting of a table of contents, and a table of authorities with lower case Roman numerals, and then the main body of the brief with Arabic page numbers. I will have headings and subheadings, set in boldface or italics, which I need to keep on the same page as the following paragraphs, normal paragraphs that are double spaced with the first line indented, quoted material that will be single spaced with left and right indented margins, and footnotes. I want to make sure I avoid widows and orphans to keep the brief readable for the judge.

When I began doing this with Word for Windows, I formatted all of this manually, and it was a real pain. I found myself applying the same formatting characteristics over and over again on different parts of my document. After spending about a half hour setting up my styles, I can now write and format my documents with great speed and know that my headings will all be the same.

Virgil

#78

Hi :slight_smile:
Virgil, is there any chance you you uploading your template or whatever to the Templates site?  It sounds like something quite a lot of people could benefit from having.
Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

#79

Sure, I'll give it a try.

Virgil

#80

Hi :slight_smile:
A couple of months ago someone gave an excellent link to a place where you could 'vote' on what you want some free-lance devs to work on and assign a value of cash you would pay of they fixed it.  Typical amounts would be around 1 beer in a pub but some people were putting quite large amounts down.  Sometimes a few different people would put small amounts for the same thing so the dev would get several beers or even enough for something useful like rent or a new power-supply, or keyboard or something.

Of course some of the devs do get paid anyway because some do work for large organisations and get paid to work on LO as part of that but then it's probably for doing something they are ordered to work on.  So, if they got an extra boost from the voting thing then they deserve it too.

Can anyone remember the link or know of something similar?

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile: