rtf files

That's one of the things I've always liked about RTF. In a pinch, one could open an RTF file in Notepad and strip out all of the RTF coding and be left with a document's contents. I've never had to do it, but it's nice that it can be done. With a binary file, you're left with smiley faces and no visible content.

Virgil

​Now, add a picture to your rtf file and see how fun it is to have all
things in a "plaintext", notepad friendly​ file format...

More recent format like odt (and docx for that matter) are *WAY* better.
(is there a way to emphasis this more?). They are in fact a collection of
files in a simple ZIP, but the core of it (the text and structure) is in a
straightforward XML file which is as "plaintext" as an RTF file. In fact,
it's easier to strip the extra tags out of an XML file, since tools to
manipulate/reformat XML are extremely common.

With recent format, you get the possibility, should an issue arise, to
​extract the plaintext content, and even the attached files (pictures and
other embedded OLE stuff) with common tools. This is even demonstrated on
this list, when sometime someone get a corrupted file, and it is possible
to recover it with stuff like notepad and windows' zip file explorer.

There's no comparison between these format, heavily documented in case of
ODT, that put a clear separation between content and format, and an RTF
file that want to cram everything (content, format, and binary blobs for
image) in a single "plaintext" file.

Hi :slight_smile:
I'm really not getting plain text. When i right-click and open in a
text-editor i get this sort of thing;

{\rtf1\ansi\deff3\adeflang1025
{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Times New
Roman;}{\f1\froman\fprq2\fcharset2 Symbol;}{\f2\fswiss\fprq2\fcharset0
Arial;}{\f3\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Liberation Serif{\*\falt Times New
Roman};}{\f4\fswiss\fprq2\fcharset0 Liberation Sans{\*\falt
Arial};}{\f5\fnil\fprq2\fcharset0 Droid Sans
Fallback;}{\f6\fnil\fprq2\fcharset0 FreeSans;}{\f7\fswiss\fprq0\fcharset128
FreeSans;}}
{\colortbl;\red0\green0\blue0;\red128\green128\blue128;}
{\stylesheet{\s0\snext0\nowidctlpar{\*\hyphen2\hyphlead2\hyphtrail2\hyphmax0}\cf0\kerning1\dbch\af5\langfe2052\dbch\af6\afs24\alang1081\loch\f3\fs24\lang2057
Normal;}
{\s15\sbasedon0\snext16\sb240\sa120\keepn\dbch\af5\dbch\af6\afs28\loch\f4\fs28
Heading;}
{\s16\sbasedon0\snext16\sl288\slmult1\sb0\sa140 Text Body;}
{\s17\sbasedon16\snext17\sl288\slmult1\sb0\sa140\dbch\af7 List;}
{\s18\sbasedon0\snext18\sb120\sa120\noline\i\dbch\af7\afs24\ai\fs24
Caption;}
{\s19\sbasedon0\snext19\noline\dbch\af7 Index;}
}{\info{\creatim\yr2014\mo11\dy19\hr16\min29}{\revtim\yr0\mo0\dy0\hr0\min0}{\printim\yr0\mo0\dy0\hr0\min0}{\comment
LibreOffice}{\vern67241730}}\deftab709
\viewscale100
{\*\pgdsctbl
{\pgdsc0\pgdscuse451\pgwsxn11906\pghsxn16838\marglsxn1134\margrsxn1134\margtsxn1134\margbsxn1134\pgdscnxt0
Default Style;}}
\formshade\paperh16838\paperw11906\margl1134\margr1134\margt1134\margb1134\sectd\sbknone\sectunlocked1\pgndec\pgwsxn11906\pghsxn16838\marglsxn1134\margrsxn1134\margtsxn1134\margbsxn1134\ftnbj\ftnstart1\ftnrstcont\ftnnar\aenddoc\aftnrstcont\aftnstart1\aftnnrlc
\pgndec\pard\plain
\s0\nowidctlpar{\*\hyphen2\hyphlead2\hyphtrail2\hyphmax0}\cf0\kerning1\dbch\af5\langfe2052\dbch\af6\afs24\alang1081\loch\f3\fs24\lang2057{\rtlch
\ltrch\loch
asdfdf}
\par }

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Oh no it isn't

(In England we have somewhat bizarre stage shows around this time of year
with lots of routines that the audience knows in advances to help with
audience participation. One of the classics gags is one of the thespian's
says something like the above and the audience counters by all shouting at
once "Oh yes it is" this goes back-and-forth several times until the
audience is inevitably proven right)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantomime

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

I'm really not getting plain text. When i right-click and open in a
text-editor i get this sort of thing;

Which is plain text in plain 7 bit ASCII. I can paste your rtf into any
plain text editor, save as tom.rtf and open tom.rtf with any rtf capable
word processor. Now I save this in binary .doc, open the doc in a text
editor and what I see is this:

\D0\CFࡱ\E1\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00;\00\00\FE\FF \00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\FE\FF\FF\FF\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\F

F\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FD\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FE\FF\FF\FF\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00a\00\00\00\00\00\00 \00\00\00

\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00\00 \00\00\00\00\00\00\FE\FF\FF\FF\00\00\00\FE\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\FF\F

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\00\00\00\00\00 \00\00\00

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Every byte means something but I can not even figure out where your
"asdf" text is.

Sorry, Tom, that is plain text, just like HTML is plain text. Yes, it
contains special codes, but it does not contain anything but plain ASCII
characters.

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, ok. If that counts as plain text of a 5 (ish) letter document then
that explains a few misunderstandings i've had.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, right. Now i'm kinda regretting using 4-6 random letters but not
enough to repeat the experiment. I suspect my adfs (or whatever) is
probably something like

E0\85\9F\F2\F9Oh \AB\91

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Huhu. Someone needs to write an extension that save odt files as
base64-encoded. Tadaa, full plaintext files :wink:

I'm joking of course. But although rtf is "technically" plaintext, in
practice it's not always straightforward to read with notepad, even when
the text isn't mangled away in some way. The only advantage I can see is
that it's easier to generate a "simple" RTF file from any program than to
generate an odt. Beyond that, the actual content of an RTF file is at best
as useful as the content of the content.xml file in an odt. Slightly more
even, as tools to manipulate xml are more common.

It is a plain text description of an electronic document.

I thought it now used the new WTF format. :wink:

"Tom Davies":

The Rtf spec kept changing at any whim of MS's. They wouldn't publish the
new specs until month or even years later.

RTF spec is changed according to new product features. Also, it is extensible, so you can implement any subset you need being able to safely ignore the rest and following changes. It is not a problem.

"Cley Faye":

is in a straightforward XML file which is as "plaintext" as an RTF file. In fact,
it's easier to strip the extra tags out of an XML file

Sure. Now tell us what {urn:oasis:names:tc:opendocument:xmlns:office:1.0}binary-data element is for, and what kind of 'plaintext' it does contain.

heavily documented in case of
ODT, that put a clear separation between content and format

Really? And where, for example, this element is 'documented'?
{urn:oasis:names:tc:opendocument:xmlns:style:1.0}num-format

​There:
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1415854_253892949
and there:
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1417966_253892949

Also, from the *name* that you so easily got out of the file, anyone can
tell that binary-data will, indeed, hold a binary data (and the properties
you omitted, as well as the position in the file will indicate the nature
of it). Same logic with num-format. Only someone seriously thickheaded
would go saying "geez, I wonder what style:num-format can be".

Your turn now, where is
"\cf0\kerning1\dbch\af6\langfe2052\dbch\af7\afs24\alang1081\loch\f4\fs24\lang1036"
documented? And do you really find this easier to understand than tags like
"num-format" and "style:name"?

You can ignore the fact that RTF was changed on numerous occasion in
non-retrocompatible ways, and ignore the fact that some features of RTF
are, to this day, not officially documented by MS, and also ignore the fact
that accross several MS tools (namely MS Word and Wordpad) you get
completely different results for the same file, and still ignore when these
are pointed out, but it won't magically make it true.

A RTF file is less "human-readable" than the content.xml file in an ODT (or
a docx for that matter).

RTF is not a standard, and as such should be avoided. There is only one
standard document format, which is ODF (which was chosen by UK because
is the only standard available), and should replace any other format.

"Cley Faye":

http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1415854_253892949

So, somehow arbitrary BASE64-encoded data are fine in ODF yet an obstacle in RTF?

http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1417966_253892949

It is not documented there: it says it can be an arbitrary string with no effect defined.

"\cf0\kerning1\dbch\af6\langfe2052\dbch\af7\afs24\alang1081\loch\f4\fs24\lang1036"

\cfN Foreground color (default is 0). N specifies the color as an index of the color table.
\kerningN Point size (in half-points) above which to kern character pairs. \kerning0 turns off kerning.
\dbch The text consists of double-byte characters.
etc.

RTF was changed on numerous occasion in non-retrocompatible ways,

examples?

accross several MS tools (namely MS Word and Wordpad) you get
completely different results for the same file

Different features supported give different results. Yet Arial 10pt red will stay Arial 10pt red everywhere, so the format definitely works.

A RTF file is less "human-readable" than the content.xml file in an ODT

XML isn't more readable than RTF.

Hi :slight_smile:
Interesting lack of links to any documentation there.

Also i still think that most people are going to find full words and widely
used abbreviations MUCH easier to read than clever 1-4 letter abbreviations
that are pretty much unique to the context. We are obviously going to
carry on disagreeing on that.

With the Rtf file it was almost impossible to spot where&what the actual
contents was. With Xml the coding tags are clearly defined and limited.
It's much easier to extract the actual words-on-the-page - even for a human
without the benefit of so much as a simple text-editor's colour-coding.

Also ODF 1.0/1.1 has been an established ISO format since 2006. Tons of
programs are able to implement it as per that ISO specification and set
that as a default.

Rtf never quite got that far. Almost all of it's implementations are quite
different from each other. It's never been much of a "standard". You can
grumble that it's everyone else's fault as much as you like but that
doesn't improve the implementation in anything. You never quite know what
to expect when opening an Rtf in any program other than whatever it was
written with.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Wow! Seems we have a new religion here, added to the conflicts in the Middle East, Northern Ireland (calm at the moment) and Kashmir, not to mention the South China Sea.

Can we agree that a) rtf is not an ISO standard and has never been; that b) most programs with a proprietary text format could once save as rtf and some still do, but now rarely as the only alternative and that c) it's not worth fighting any more over what rtf is and is not. We'll save a lot of bandwidth that way, and maybe save the Document Foundation from having to buy a new Emc2 cabinet to handle all the traffic.

Just my 2c.

James

PS perhaps my biggest beef is that the two most eager sparring partners both have to be moderated and I'm a moderator! :wink:

Hi Tom,

I am using intensively shell scripts for example to look up printing dates in
a large number of files. With a few lines of code (and with sed an unzip) one
can quickly extract the information from .odt files due to the well defined
format.

Yours
W. K.

orAm Donnerstag, 20. November 2014 schrieb Tom Davies:

+1000