Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

users
#21

Hi :slight_smile:
Outlook is not OpenSouce so it can't be taken under TDF's wing and given a
home here.

There isn't really much choice in terms of which email client and looking
around into comparisons of different ones.

The ethos of TDF and LibreOffice is largely to ensure it "plays well with
others". As i understand it LO works reasonably well with a wide variety
of email clients and i can't see that changing.

The 2 broad questions i think we can explore at this stage are;
1. Would it be good to have an email-client that outsiders and noobs may
begin to perceive as being closely linked with LibreOffice?

Almost all responses have been very positive. Most went straight into
finer details. The few potential issues were a long way from being
"blockers".

2. If so, could we cope with Thunderbird being "under the same umbrella"as
us.

Again almost all agreed. Most raised questions about details of
implentation, and pointed out potential problem areas. Again no blockers,
so nothing insurmountablee = just some wise words about maintaining some
independance.

Regars to all from
Tom :slight_smile:

#22

Hi, Tom.

I've thought over a reply for your question for quite sometime, finally decided to just add some thoughts.

Except for a thread on printing labels (which appears to be a printer driver problem in this case), I've not posted here for a very long time.

Nor do I use LO on a regular basis. I use it for labels because the free office suite I'm currently using does not have label capability. And maybe once a year, I write something sort of serious. I do that just to see how much has changed. Here on the Mac, I have Word 2011 for regular use. The free office suite I am using now is FreeOffice from Softmaker, and it's on Windows 7. I like it enough that I'm considering purchasing Softmaker 2016. The free version is 2012.

The attitude of LO devs turned me off years ago, and I've seen nothing since to bring me back. And the icons and UI overall in 5.?.? Geez, my Atari 1040 ST running TOS 4 (I think) had much better icons. People should be ashamed of this new fad in UI appearance, IMO.

Oh, wait. I see there are Themes in 5. Cool. No, there are no Themes to choose from. If you don't have something as simple as themes ready to go, why bother?

I would like to see LO do well, but I don't recommend it for most people anymore. Why? Most people don't need all the bells and whistles of LO. And they don't need Word for the same reason. I tell people to sit down and scrutinize/analyze what they need from an office suite. Do they even need an office suite? Maybe WordPad on Windows and TextEdit on the Mac is all they need. And there's plenty of software between both extremes on both platforms to fill people's needs.

And many times, people will use an office suite to do something, and an office suite is simply the wrong tool for the job at hand.

For those that don't know, Softmaker 2016 (Pro version only, I think) includes a customized copy of Thunderbird. What the differences are, I do not know.

I see a lot of posts around about how good TB is, but most never seem to run into the issues I find. I have no idea why. Just last week I was reminded of a bug in the address book. Edit an entry, and save. Now I have that address in the address book 2 times. Delete one of them, and both go away.

The archive files for one account disappeared for 3 years. Cursor movement has a problem in HTML composition, in that it doesn't go where it belongs.

And the answers to many questions in Mozilla's Thunderbird group for solving problems is to create a new profile and start over. That's NOT a fix. Needless to say, I rarely read that group anymore either.

When it comes to offering support as far as using TB is concerned, if it's to LO's advantage to do so, go for it. But I get so effing tired of having to go to 5 or 10 forums to find answers to program because the answer is not in/on the program's site. For LO, I would offer the extra help to Mozilla's newsgroup so there's one less place to spend time registering and checking in on whatever your regular basis is. Plus, it would give you another avenue of exposure for LO.

IMO, even better TB support would be to help the TB devs solve a lot of the bugs that exist.

The above issues could be solved by absorbing the entire TB effort as you suggested. And is a reasonable solution, IMO. But I hope LO devs take a different attitude than they appeared to have when I was a regular user. Devs seemed to be more interested in adding features rather than fixing issues they knew existed.

Do a few things right rather than a lot of things wrong.

Both TB and FF have the same weak link, that of using add-ons. What often happened is folks like me would install add-ons that became part of their workflow. Then both would come out with a new version, breaking the add-on and thus breaking the workflow. Now, do you think that made anyone happy?

I used to extol the virtues of TB and FF, but enough breakage was enough. I just tell people I use them and they work OK.

I think your point of "Freedom from Choice" is driven more by the costs of providing support of many programs. In the US Government agency I worked for, there were limits on what you could install on the computers, if your unit had no local support system. If you were a large enough unit, supplying 100% of the unit's IT support, permission could be obtained to install a program not on the approved list.

I haven't used Outlook since Outlook 2007, and IIRC, the "rules" in Outlook are far more sophisticated than TB's.

I think I'll snip your message and save people the work of having to deal with it. LOL

Best of luck.

#23

Hi Tom,

We use both LibreOffice and Thunderbird running under Linux-Mint. I have
been concerned about the future of Thunderbird since the Mozilla statement
concerning the future of the software.

I am delighted that The Document Foundation is considering bringing TB under
its wing, thoroughly support this aim and have the following brief comments.

1) We should not change the name, as this will lead to confusion. I still
have problems with my users confusing LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org. Some
of them still call LibreOffice OpenOffice although they have been usingLibO
for some time.

2) Thunderbird is cross system and runs under Linux, Windows and MacOS, just
like LibO.

3) LibO supports the Mozilla Personas/Theme function, but the operational
interface of LibO leaves a great deal to be desired. Perhaps we could import
the user interface of Thunderbird Personas Plus to LibO to fix this lack. We
could thus manage the header/footer loock consistently across the products.

Anyway, I wish the project every success.... Peter

#24

I have not been following this discussion, BUT from a guy who is typing this comment using Thunderbird, having been using it for years. . .

The only thing about Thunderbird, for me right now, was the "chore" it was to to switch systems when the one it was on, since 2010, is now down for repairs. It was not geared for syncing your email between two or more systems - i.e. desktop, laptop, and maybe tablet - according to everything I have read.

I really like Thunderbird, other than that, and have been using it since I was still using my original WinXP system when MS's personal email package "failed". Now I have been using it on a Ubuntu system - desktop then laptop.

I do not really think we should to bundle Thunderbird with LibreOffice, but we may be able to promote Thunderbird as a "partner software" especially on Windows systems. I know that Windows want us to use their packages. If we promoted Thunderbird on Windows systems, since Linux systems, mostly[?], installs Thunderbird as the default email client.

MS Office became really bloated early, with packages that was what they thought users need other than what LibreOffice currently installs. LO has done a really good job with what is included. I really do not want to include other opensource packages, other than maybe extension resources. Do we want to commit to adding an email package to what LO developers need to work on, or a package like Inkscape? Others have produced packages like those, and more, that we should not add in LO's installation bundle. MS wanted to control every package that a user, personal or business, that MS determined they must have. So far LibreOffice has not gone that way. For me, I rarely need to use Draw, Impress, Math, or Base. If we add an email package to LO's installation, what would be next that others might want to be included with LO? What other package others want our developers to add to their limited development time? We do not have the resources of a paid software company. We should stick with LibreOffice's needs.

On the "promotion" of other opensource package, LO could do that. We could have a web page with other packages that "may" be useful to the users. Those could be packages like Thunderbird and other packages that may complement LO that would help users in personal and professional work. That would allow a user[s] to choose what additional packages to download and use, instead include them within a single download file. We currently have language options for interface and help installs, and not require users to download ones that they do not want to use, or at least for non-Windows installs.

Let LibreOffice be its current configuration and not add packages. Should we support other opensource package. Yes, but in a way[s] that does not require LO people to develop it.

#25

Then you're using the wrong protocol. If you are using POP, you will
not have syncing between systems. If you use IMAP, you will. With
IMAP, the messages, including sent email, are retained on the server,
where any device or app can access them. I have two computers, with my
choice of Linux, Windows 7 or Windows 10, a tablet and smart phone. All
of them have access to all my email.

#26

The only thing about Thunderbird, for me right now, was the "chore" it
was to to switch systems when the one it was on, since 2010, is now down
for repairs.

That is simple - you just copy the %appdata%\Thunderbird (on Windows)
folder to the new system.

It was not geared for syncing your email between two or
more systems - i.e. desktop, laptop, and maybe tablet - according to
everything I have read.

No fat (desktop) email client is designed to do that. That is what IMAP
is for.

When using IMAP, starting from scratch, is simple (just add the accounts
back in), and as long as you use IMAP on all systems, mail is always in
sync, because all changes happen server side.

I do not really think we should to bundle Thunderbird with LibreOffice,

Agreed, it should always be a separate install...

One question I have is, in what way(s) could or should TB better
integrate with Libreoffice, other than maybe a simple (e)mail merge
function?

#27

The only thing about Thunderbird, for me right now, was the "chore" it
was to to switch systems when the one it was on, since 2010, is now down
for repairs.

That is simple - you just copy the %appdata%\Thunderbird (on Windows)
folder to the new system.

If you're using Windows. And if the two platforms are different, you may break an add-on.

#28

Good point... so you break an Addon. The fact that you can move a
profile from one platform to another and have everything mostly just
work is pretty cool, and something most programs can't even come close
to doing...

And if you're using Outlook the Windows version is completely
incompatible with the Mac version...

#29

That real world scenario is adhering to a lawyer's recommendation that
even de facto spam has to be retrieved and archived to comply with
assorted federal, state and local data retention laws, rules, and
regulations.

jonathon

#30

Actually, depending on the jurisdiction, I'd call B$ on that.

There is NO law that requires one to ACCEPT all mail.

First and foremost you reject mail for invalid recipients. Then there
are a lot of spam cases that can safely and legally be rejected at SMTP
time.

But, sure, if you ACCEPT the mail, then if you fall under certain laws,
you may have to archive it for a given amount of time.

But, again, in what world does anyone receive (ACCEPT) 2+GB of mail PER
HOUR?

Sorry, but that is just silly.

#31

One of the things I miss about Lotus SmartSuite is its' TeamMail function.

A quick google suggests this is nothing more than Shared Mailbox
functionality. That is Server functionality, TB is a mail client.

Yes, TB is an e-mail client. Where should it go from here. How could it enhance the use of LibreOffice.

It also included Team Review, Team Consolidate and Team Security.

Sound like Groupware functionality... ?

You are correct.

It might be old school, but it worked.

If Thunderbird could function within LibreOffice in a similar way, it
would be a great addition.

Lotus SmartSuite was am integrated mail server/groupware solution.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

You are correct again. But the question is, how can we put the apple and the orange together.

#32

The unique possibility to SyncPOP instead of IMAP is an interesting proposal.
I would feel far more secure if Thunderbird directly re-aligned itself on different machines I use then have it floating out on the web.
If LibreOffice where to take control of Thunderbird, would it be able to become part of an overall system to legitimize document sharing in both e-mail client and documents?

#33

The unique possibility to SyncPOP instead of IMAP is an interesting
proposal.

No, it isn't... assuming that by 'SyncPOP' you mean the broken POP
feature where you can 'leave messages on the server'.

If that isn't what you mean, then you'll have to elaborate.

I would feel far more secure if Thunderbird directly re-aligned itself
on different machines I use then have it floating out on the web.

No clue what 'realign' means here. Do you mean 'sync'? If so, then that
is precisely what IMAP provides.

If you don't want to rely on some third party to host your mail, then
run your own IMAP server.

If LibreOffice where to take control of Thunderbird, would it be able to
become part of an overall system to legitimize document sharing in both
e-mail client and documents?

This sounds like a broken way to refer to a groupware server.

I would love for SOGo to adding some real Groupware capabilities, like
file sharing, collaboration, etc.

But again, Thunderbird is a CLIENT. You are talking about SERVER
features, and NO, Thunderbird will NEVER become a full blown mail
SERVER. Why reinvent the wheel? We already have dovecot (and a few
others, Cyrus is good, Courier is old and on the way out, no clue about
UW-IMAP)...

#34

Turn TB into a mail *server*? Ain't gonna happen, no reason to.

And - no offense, but - anyone suggesting this hasn't a clue what it
takes to make a real mail server *or* client.

#35

Besides, you could accept everything on the server, let the spam filter move "de facto spam" to a proper folder, keep all the archives on the server and avoid subscribing the Spam folder on the client, thus relieving TB (or whatever) of this burden.

#36

While I do plead ignorance about mail servers, software resident on the users machine can do what it wants.
Since PGP already exists in Thunderbird, a server is not required for updating.
Theoretically, If I'm using TB on two machines that uses a PGP tied to an e-mail address, both would be allowed to interact about changes to each.
A change in the status, say a "marked as Deleted" creates a time stamped "STATUS" file. This file is e-mailed and received when you go to another machine to get your email in Thunderbird. Thunderbird says "You have received a STATUS update. Would you like to apply it? YES / NO.
This is a clue...

#37

While I do plead ignorance about mail servers, software resident on the
users machine can do what it wants.

To a point, yes...

Since PGP already exists in Thunderbird, a server is not required for
updating.

What pray tell does PGP have to with this discussion?

Theoretically, If I'm using TB on two machines that uses a PGP tied to
an e-mail address, both would be allowed to interact about changes to each.

Changes to *what*??

A change in the status, say a "marked as Deleted" creates a time stamped
"STATUS" file. This file is e-mailed and received when you go to
another machine to get your email in Thunderbird. Thunderbird says "You
have received a STATUS update. Would you like to apply it? YES / NO.
This is a clue...

No, that is ... again, no offense ... some words uttered by someone
about a subject that they do not know enough about to try to discuss it.

#38

Each e-mail address has its own "STATUS" file.
"STATUS" file e-mails are not deletable from the POP mail server unless specifically commanded to delete them within Thunderbird via a separate command
          or when all "STATUS" files are duplicated based on time stamp.
"STATUS" files are based on changes and store individual e-mails and/or their marking (New, Deleted, Un-read)
The frequency of generating time stamped "STATUS" files is based on file size of STATUS file.
"STATUS" file e-mail may only be transmitted with PGP or some form of encryption.
"STATUS" files are created chronologically, each access adds to the stack to be sent between Thunderbird 1, 2, 3...N
The checking of "STATUS" file happens within Thunderbird

Thunderbird 1<---> POP mail server <--> Thunderbird 2

Thunderbird 1 receives e-mail < -- POP mail server

Thunderbird 1 creates "STATUS" file based on changes (New, Deleted, Un-read)

Thunderbird 1 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> POP mail server

POP mail server --> Thunderbird 2 receives e-mail including PGP encrypted "STATUS" file

Thunderbird 2 says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" file now.

Thunderbird 3 added and receives "STATUS" file e-mail < -- POP mail server

Thunderbird 3says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" file now.

Thunderbird 3 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> POP mail server

I didn't say it was easy, but it is possible.
Think of it as a very unique and fancy Message filter.

#39

To have synced POP, you'd need all devices to sync with each other.
Given that many are only on part time, that would be a real task. You'd
need a server somewhere to manage it. Perhaps an IMAP server?

#40

Possible? Sure, anything is possible, but this is way too breakable to
even give serious consideration to.