What version?

users
#41

Hi :slight_smile:
Yes, MSO formats are tricky. MS keep changing the spec without changing
the name. I find the best work-around is to use the older MS formats
Doc instead of DocX
Xls instead of XlsX
Ppt instead of PptX
and so on.

In LibreOffice you can set the default to be these older formats and i
think i am going to do that with the machine i am about to prepare for
reception in the company i work for.
Tools - Options - Load/Save - General
then at the bottom of the page there are 2 drop-downs. Set the bottom one
to MS ... 97/2000/Xp. Then change the one just above it to soreadsheets or
whatever the next one is and change the bottom drop-down to use the older
MS format for that one too. Not all the modules/apps/programs in
LibreOffice have equivalents in MS Office so for those i would probably
stick with ODF.

Ahh, i just set the format to the older MSO ones and it just saves without
opening a pop-up asking if i really want to use MS ones rather than ODF.
That seems like a good plan for now but i might change that in a month or
few. Generally it is better to use ODF by default and only use MS ones
temporarily but i need to give them a bit of time where they don't have to
deal with these issues.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#42

Unfortunately, yes, but in a totally unpredictable way.

Sorry for the technical details, but they are necessary to understand
the situation.

Microsoft introduced OOXML (DOCX, XLSX and PPTX) in 2007, in a hurry,
because the State of Massachusetts opted for ODF (the file format of
LibreOffice).

The State IT Manager, responsible of the decision, was fired based on
false allegations published by the Boston Globe, and provided by...

The OOXML document format was not ready to become a standard, and the
fast track process (totally inadequate) changed it in a way to get to
something resembling a standard (OOXML Strict).

MS Office 2007 adopts OOXML 2007 Transitional, MS Office 2010 adopts
OOXML 2010 Transitional (different from 2007), MS Office 2013 adopts
OOXML 2013 Transitional (different from 2007 and 2010).

Neither of these formats is a standard.

OOXML Strict is supported only by MS Office 2013, while all other MS
Office incarnations will not open it (and will tell the user that the
file is corrupted).

MS Office 2013 handles OOXML Strict with a number of horrible bugs. I
have tested the Excel bugs, which make Excel unusable (and can only be
solved by rewriting the application).

In addition, if you open an OOXML Transitional and save it as OOXML
Strict the contents will be changed arbitrarily (and this has just been
confirmed by Microsoft, telling the user that is his fault and not the
software, which has been designed to work this way).

Of course, the opposite is true, so any OOXML Strict will be screwed if
saved as OOXML Transitional.

Sorry for the boring technical details, but this is the situation.

Best regards, Italo

#43

Italo - no need to apologize. Your ability to make even non tech savvy
people (or less tech savvy) understand the absurdities of it all is truly
an art. Thanks!

Best,
Joel

#44

italovignoli wrote

OOXML Strict is supported only by MS Office 2013, while all other MS
Office incarnations will not open it (and will tell the user that the
file is corrupted).

This statement is not accurate. ISO/IEC 29500 Strict can be opened / edited
by MSO 2010 and opened / edited / saved by MSO 2013 and MSO 365. This was
blogged about back in 2012 (where "New Office" implies MSO 2013 and MSO
365):

http://blogs.office.com/2012/08/13/new-file-format-options-in-the-new-office/

The *default* file format used by both MSO 2013 and MSO 365 is ISO/IEC 29500
Transitional. This can be changed to ISO/IEC 29500 Strict if necessary:

http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/e969fc0a-9fcd-4efe-bf6d-79ea8c34360f/what-is-the-default-file-format-for-saving-in-ms-office-2013-is-it-still-the-transitional-ooxml-or?forum=officeitpro

#45

If you just want to use the .doc, .xlt, etc., file formats, LibreOfice will do fine. For MS Office, the formats ending with "x" is a problem even for their older version. MSO 2007 might have trouble reading DOCX files created from the newer versions, even though they are all called a DOCX file. MSO keeps changing things inside the "x" file formats, especially the latest version.

That is why I always tell the MS Office users I know to save the files in the formats without the "x" on the end. I have to say it simply like that since most would mot know things like OOXML or other term I could use.

Still get some "x" files emailed to me and most work fine for me and LibreOffice. It seems that every major version release of LibreOffice seems to get these "x" documents to read better and better - for those few that do not work well. I have a Windows laptop that has some Word "reader" packages from MS and the problem .docx files are a problem with the latest Word reader I use. SO it may not be LibreOffice but the version of MS Office that sends me these documents.

So, if your neighbors do not have MSO installed, have them try LibreOffice. For the Ubuntu, Linux Mint, and Red Hat systems, well there is no other options for them. They cannot get a MS Office version for Linux. Also, the cost of getting a package for each and every system that might be able to run MS Office could be too expensive for you neighbors' "pockets". Even one copy is too much for mine. Plus, I will not lease any software, like MS wants you. If you are late on your payments, then you lose access to your documents - plus they could double the lease pricing and you would have to pay it or also lose your access. You have to buy the package of MSO to be safe - well that is my opinion and should not be commented on in this thread since it was covered well months ago in its own thread.

#46

Thanks Sophie.

I think that is one reason why ODF has become the ISO for International office file transfer, or something like that. Cannot seem to find the correct wording. We needed a non proprietor set of file formats that can be used by people, businesses, governments, and large organizations, to send back and forth to each other and be usable by everyone. MS just did not want that, so it seemed to me. More and more governments and larger "National" and "International" organizations have started to announce that they are switching to ODF and some are also saying they are switching to LibreOffice to do this. But, the key is the switch over to ODF. If the office suite implements ODF properly, then they should be able to read - and work with - any ODF file that was sent to them by any other - different - office suite package that these users are not using on their local systems.

For me, and my opinions - I thing MS does not want this type of "read from any source" idea, even their own older office suites. They want to make money selling their newest office suite to users, so they make it so you need to upgrade your older version to be compatible with their newer version's OOXML file formats. That is why some of the people now send out .doc files - they have several versions of MSO in their company and cannot afford to buy every user a new version when they add an new system and have to buy the newest version of MSO for it. I have dealt with one local government that has MSO 2003, 2007, 2010, and now 2013. They cannot afford to pay out the money to upgrade all of their systems with the newest version, every time they replace a system - or add one. I still am trying to get them to look into LibreOffice as a cost saving solution. Many of the "tech support people", from many organization [like the local government] know and like LibreOffice, but the upper management seems stuck on using MSO and will not change the way they "always do things". Well, there is a movement to go to ODF by my State's government, so when that happens, the local governments may go that way also. LibreOffice - in my opinion - is the best option for supporting ODF in an office suite market.

#47

At the risk of adding to the "political" noise...

[snip]

For MS Office, the formats ending with
"x" is a problem even for their older version. MSO 2007 might have
trouble reading DOCX files created from the newer versions, even
though they are all called a DOCX file. MSO keeps changing things
inside the "x" file formats, especially the latest version.

[snip]

Still get some "x" files emailed to me and most work fine for me
and LibreOffice. It seems that every major version release of
LibreOffice seems to get these "x" documents to read better and
better - for those few that do not work well. I have a Windows
laptop that has some Word "reader" packages from MS and the
problem .docx files are a problem with the latest Word reader I
use. SO it may not be LibreOffice but the version of MS Office
that sends me these documents.

[snip]

Yup. In fact: I've seen where people send "x" files to my coworkers,
coworker sends HelpDesk complaint "I can't read this file," I have
them try LibréOffice, and LibréOffice renders it just fine. Hasn't
happened often, but it has happened.

It's important for individuals and businesses to understand this:
For-profit companies make money off selling you stuff (duh). They
can't sell you a New Thing if you're happy with the Old Thing. How
might demand for the New Thing be... enhanced? Well, I suppose one
way *might* be that what the New Thing creates is subtly incompatible
with the Old Thing.

Not that I'd accuse anybody of *purposely* doing such a
thing--unless it was, you know, necessary or unavoidable :wink:

At work we're avoiding that problem, to the extent possible, by
standardizing on MS-Win7 and MSO 2007. (The former because it's
not too different from MS-WinXP, the latter because it's the
latest that most installs already had.) It's getting increasingly
difficult to find *legitimate* copies of retail versions of these
packages, but we expect to have the entire organization's upgrade
cycle completed before the supply dries up entirely.

N.B.: For many installs we first try installing only LibréOffice, and
only buy & install MSO if LO absolutely will not work for the user.

As for home: I solved the entire problem once-and-for-all by
replacing my wife's MS-Win install with Linux Mint. (MS-Win8 was the
last straw, even for her.)

Mind you: I *used* to actually recommend Microsoft solutions for many
users (with caveats). Wouldn't use it, myself, because it just did not
work for me--for the way I use computers. (Nor did Apple
solutions.) I feel I can no longer, in good conscience, do so--for a
variety of reasons, not the least of which is the never-ending
incompatibility/upgrade issue, and its associated costs--which are
not insignificant.

Regards,
Jim

#48

What do you use in place of PowerPoint Viewer?

#49

Have little-to-no need for PPT at home.

Regards,
Jim

#50

I use impress.

regards,
                        Tomáš Matýs

#51

Is there a way to get Impress to start in slide-show mode when I click
on a PPT icon?

Thanks.

#52

Hi :slight_smile:
I think it is
.Pps
that plays as a slide-show straight-away. I think
.Ppt
normally opens in editable/design view. I'm not sure if it's possible to
just rename the file-ending between the 2 or whether you have to use "Save
As...". I've got a feeling it's one of the rare ones where you can just
rename the file-ending.

Wrt 2013 being incompatible with 2013, MS themselves have a disclaimer
(during install) that if the same program is installed on Win7 and Win8 (or
any other 2 versions of Windows) then some of the documents produced in
each might not work in the other. 2010 had this warning and i'm guessing
2013 says much the same.

I'm fairly sure the default format in MS Office 2013 is not "strict" but is
just another "transitional" format. Afaik none of the transitional formats
are registered ISO formats. I don't think it's particularly easy to get
2013 to use "strict" by default but it is possible to set ODF as the
default!

There is not often a bad reaction from files produced by a different
version of MS Office. Each different version from 2007 has a
"compatibility mode" which seems to recognise and correctly display most
files from the other versions. However some re-flowing of text is
inevitable any time an editable format is used. It's just that it can
happen and does happen annoyingly often, just not every time.

Of course anything produced in a newer version of any program might well
have problems being properly handled in an older version of the same
program. So a file produced in 2010 might have features that 2007 can't
handle.

The shocker with MS Office is that files produced in older versions of MS
Office have problems in newer versions. This while MS claims to aim for
backwards compatibility and that DocX will be readable far into the
future. We aren't even much into the future yet and already MS Office is
having problems with it's own files!!

The Doc, Xls, Ppt files all used to have this problem too but now that MS
have stopped developing it so much and moved to developing their newer
formats it's finally these older formats that ARE good for sharing between
different programs. However we don't know how long that will continue to
be the case, or how long MS Office will continue to allow their older
formats to be used in their newer versions of MS Office. ODF seems better
(ie safer and more likely to be able to be opened) in the future. So for
longer-term storage i tend to use ODF but for collaborative working i
often use the older MS formats.

Italo's techno-babble was brilliant and i thought fairly easy to
understand. It's good to have it laid out so clearly!
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#53

Hi :slight_smile:
I think it is
.Pps
that plays as a slide-show straight-away. I think
.Ppt
normally opens in editable/design view. I'm not sure if it's possible
to just rename the file-ending between the 2 or whether you have to use
"Save As...". I've got a feeling it's one of the rare ones where you
can just rename the file-ending.

I copied the ppt file to a pps of the same name and when I clicked on
it, Impress started in slideshow mode!! Thanks for the tip.

Italo's techno-babble was brilliant and i thought fairly easy to
understand. It's good to have it laid out so clearly!

I don't think you mean "techno-babble", Tom. "Technobabble refers to the
use of terms from mathematics, science, or engineering incorrectly, in
order to create a false sense of technical solidity around a field or
concept."

:slight_smile:

#54

Actually, just to chime in here on this bike shed moment, I am under the strong impression that "technobabble" does indeed refer exclusively to the incorrect usage of actual terms in order to give an appearance of technical proficiency. The difference between technobabble and what you're describing is that in the case of technobabble, there is no one who can validate the usage of the terms, if they're even real. In the case that you're describing, someone can validate what the person is saying, it's just that you in particular don't understand it; the person isn't making anything up. And just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is objectively any kind of babble. :slight_smile:

Thanks,
Mike

#55

Not exclusively, but you are indeed correct, sir. A quick squizz at
Wikipedia shows that it's use to obfuscate or deceive is considered the
more common one, though my experience makes no such distinction.

#56

TomD wrote

I'm fairly sure the default format in MS Office 2013 is not "strict" but
is
just another "transitional" format. Afaik none of the transitional
formats
are registered ISO formats. I don't think it's particularly easy to get
2013 to use "strict" by default but it is possible to set ODF as the
default!

Please refer my clarification to Italo's information up-thread. The
Transitional and Strict formats are both defined in ISO/IEC 29500.

#57

TomD wrote

The Doc, Xls, Ppt files all used to have this problem too but now that MS
have stopped developing it so much and moved to developing their newer
formats it's finally these older formats that ARE good for sharing between
different programs.

The old MS Binary specifications last had an update of significance (change
in technical nature) on 2014-04-30 (XLS) and 2012-01-20 (DOC and PPT). IOW
they are still being updated as required.

#58

Owen Genat wrote

The old MS Binary specifications last had an update of significance
(change in technical nature) on 2014-04-30 (XLS) and 2012-01-20 (DOC and
PPT).

Oops. I am already out of date. The DOC and XLSB specifications had a major
update 2014-07-31.

#59

On that note then, I'd like to record that as an ex-Excel guru and Office trainer, I am permanently delighted by the quality and stunned by the price of LibreOffice.
There may be no such thing as a free lunch in Economics, but in the IT world, LO (and of course oOo) are the closest things to a free cuisine.

Thank you to the developers who have given so much to so many for so little.
Errol Goetsch

#60

[snip]

Thank you to the developers who have given so much to so many for
so little.

[snip]

Hear, hear!

Regards,
Jim