Add hy-RU to the Pootle translation server

user29 · July 11, 2019, 7:22am

Hi,
We've started translating Libreoffice-6.0 at march 2018 in Armenian (hy-RU) and finished a few days ago. Now we try apply it on libreoffice 6.2 or 6.1 but a part of UI isn't translated. We haven't upload it Pootle yet. Please add hy-RU language to your server. Please help us make translation of latest version without doing whole work again.

Thanks
Regards, Samvel

sophi · July 11, 2019, 8:57am

Hi Samvel,

Hi,
We've started translating Libreoffice-6.0 at march 2018 in Armenian
(hy-RU) and finished a few days ago. Now we try apply it on libreoffice
6.2 or 6.1 but a part of UI isn't translated. We haven't upload it
Pootle yet. Please add hy-RU language to your server. Please help us
make translation of latest version without doing whole work again.

Thanks for your work! Armenian is already in Pootle:
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/
Are you in contact with Seda already, he is administrator of your
language in Pootle?
Cheers
Sophie

user29 · July 11, 2019, 12:19pm

There are 4 types of Armenian locales added to Loffice. We've translated hy-RU, and now we are translating hy-IR(Armenian with classical orthography). Please, read this dialog.<br><br>https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058<br><br><div class="quote" style="line-height: 1.5"><br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Add hy-RU to the Pootle translation server<br>From: sophi <sophi@libreoffice.org><br>To: ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>,l10n@global.libreoffice.org<br>CC: <br><br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Samvel,<br>Le 11/07/2019 à 09:15, ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան a écrit :<br>> Hi,<br>> We've started translating Libreoffice-6.0 at march 2018 in Armenian<br>> (hy-RU) and finished a few days ago. Now we try apply it on libreoffice<br>> 6.2 or 6.1 but a part of UI isn't translated. We haven't upload it<br>> Pootle yet. Please add hy-RU language to your server. Please help us<br>> make translation of latest version without doing whole work again.<br><br>Thanks for your work! Armenian is already in Pootle:<br>https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/<br>Are you in contact with Seda already, he is administrator of your<br>language in Pootle?<br>Cheers<br>Sophie<br><br>-- <br>Sophie Gautier sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org<br>GSM: +33683901545<br>IRC: sophi<br>Release coordinator<br>The Document Foundation<br></blockquote></div>

sophi · July 11, 2019, 12:52pm

Hi Samvel,

There are 4 types of Armenian locales added to Loffice. We've translated hy-RU,
and now we are translating hy-IR(Armenian with classical orthography). Please,
read this dialog.

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058

Thanks for the explanation, will you be able to merge your .po files to
6.2 or 6.3 or will you need help for that? How many types should we add
to Pootle, all 4 or hy-RU and hy-IR only?
Cheers
Sophie

Stamboltsyan_Seda · July 11, 2019, 4:21pm

<div><div>Hi, Samvel</div><div> </div><div>I don't know what your translation is and whether it can be merged with mine. You should've registered in Pootle and made known about your work so that I might not do the work I'm doing now if we were translating in the same language and in the same orthography. Because if you have translated in the same Armenian language and the same orthography, then my translation becomes redundant and I have lost an enormous amount of time. My translation is in the Eastern Armenian (the main language used in the Republic of Armenia) and in the main (reformed) orthography used in Armenia.</div><div> </div><div>So, you are free to make any decision with the Pootle administration. The most important thing here is that we may have a full Armenian localization of LibreOffice. If you have done it, that's great, and I'll stop translating if your translation is in the same language and orthography.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Best,</div><div>Seda</div></div><div> </div><div>11.07.2019, 16:35, "samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am" <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>:</div><blockquote><p>There are 4 types of Armenian locales added to Loffice. We've translated hy-RU, and now we are translating hy-IR(Armenian with classical orthography). Please, read this dialog.<br><br><a href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058">https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058</a><br><br><div class="quote" style="line-height: 1.5"><br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Add hy-RU to the Pootle translation server<br>From: sophi <<a href="mailto:sophi@libreoffice.org">sophi@libreoffice.org</a>><br>To: ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան <<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>>,<a href="mailto:l10n@global.libreoffice.org">l10n@global.libreoffice.org</a><br>CC: <br><br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Samvel,<br>Le 11/07/2019 à 09:15, ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան a écrit :<br>> Hi,<br>> We've started translating Libreoffice-6.0 at march 2018 in Armenian<br>> (hy-RU) and finished a few days ago. Now we try apply it on libreoffice<br>> 6.2 or 6.1 but a part of UI isn't translated. We haven't upload it<br>> Pootle yet. Please add hy-RU language to your server. Please help us<br>> make translation of latest version without doing whole work again.<br><br>Thanks for your work! Armenian is already in Pootle:<br><a href="https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/">https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/</a><br>Are you in contact with Seda already, he is administrator of your<br>language in Pootle?<br>Cheers<br>Sophie<br><br>-- <br>Sophie Gautier <a href="mailto:sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org">sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org</a><br>GSM: +33683901545<br>IRC: sophi<br>Release coordinator<br>The Document Foundation<br></blockquote></div></p>--<br />To unsubscribe e-mail to: <a href="mailto:l10n+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org">l10n+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org</a><br />Problems? <a href="https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/">https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/</a><br />Posting guidelines + more: <a href="https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette">https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette</a><br />List archive: <a href="https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/">https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/</a><br />Privacy Policy: <a href="https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy">https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy</a></blockquote>

Stamboltsyan_Seda · July 12, 2019, 9:08am

<div>I have read that dialogue, but adding or changing locales is not my competence.</div><div> </div><div>So far, in all programs localized for Armenia the locale used has been hy_AM. If you have decided to change that to hy_RU (a horrible decision due to that RU part, which indicates Russia, and we are not part of Russia, mind it), then what is hy_AM for?</div><div> </div><div><div>I don't know if it is possible to merge your and my translations. I'd like to first have a look at your translation.</div></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Best,</div><div>Seda</div><div> </div><div>12.07.2019, 12:56, "ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան" <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>:</div><blockquote><p>On 2019-07-11 20:21, Stamboltsyan Seda wrote:</p><blockquote> Hi, Samvel<br /><br /> I don't know what your translation is and whether it can be merged<br /> with mine. You should've registered in Pootle and made known about<br /> your work so that I might not do the work I'm doing now if we were<br /> translating in the same language and in the same orthography. Because<br /> if you have translated in the same Armenian language and the same<br /> orthography, then my translation becomes redundant and I have lost an<br /> enormous amount of time. My translation is in the Eastern Armenian<br /> (the main language used in the Republic of Armenia) and in the main<br /> (reformed) orthography used in Armenia.<br /><br /> So, you are free to make any decision with the Pootle administration.<br /> The most important thing here is that we may have a full Armenian<br /> localization of LibreOffice. If you have done it, that's great, and<br /> I'll stop translating if your translation is in the same language and<br /> orthography.<br /><br /> Best,<br /> Seda<br /><br /> 11.07.2019, 16:35, "<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>"<br /> <<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>>:<br /> <blockquote> There are 4 types of Armenian locales added to Loffice. We've<br /> translated hy-RU, and now we are translating hy-IR(Armenian with<br /> classical orthography). Please, read this<br /> </blockquote> dialog.<br><br><a href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058">https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058</a><br><br><div<blockquote> class="quote" style="line-height: 1.5"><br><br>-------- Original<br /> Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Add hy-RU to the<br /> Pootle translation server<br>From: sophi<br /> <<a href="mailto:sophi@libreoffice.org">sophi@libreoffice.org</a>><br>To: ԻԴ | Սամվել<br /> Հարությունյան<br /> </blockquote> <<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>>,<a href="mailto:l10n@global.libreoffice.org">l10n@global.libreoffice.org</a><br>CC:<blockquote> <br><br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote"<br /> style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br /> solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Samvel,<br>Le 11/07/2019 à 09:15, ԻԴ |<br /> Սամվել Հարությունյան a écrit :<br>> Hi,<br>><br /> We've started translating Libreoffice-6.0 at march 2018 in<br /> Armenian<br>> (hy-RU) and finished a few days ago. Now we try apply<br /> it on libreoffice<br>> 6.2 or 6.1 but a part of UI isn't<br /> translated. We haven't upload it<br>> Pootle yet. Please add hy-RU<br /> language to your server. Please help us<br>> make translation of<br /> latest version without doing whole work again.<br><br>Thanks for<br /> your work! Armenian is already in<br /> Pootle:<br><a href="https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/">https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/</a><br>Are<br /> you in contact with Seda already, he is administrator of<br /> your<br>language in Pootle?<br>Cheers<br>Sophie<br><br>-- <br>Sophie<br /> Gautier <a href="mailto:sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org">sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org</a><br>GSM:<br /> +33683901545<br>IRC: sophi<br>Release coordinator<br>The Document<br /> Foundation<br></blockquote></div>--<br /> To unsubscribe e-mail to: <a href="mailto:l10n+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org">l10n+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org</a><br /> Problems?<br /> </blockquote> <a href="https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/">https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/</a><blockquote> Posting guidelines + more:<br /> <a href="https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette">https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette</a><br /> List archive: <a href="https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/">https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/</a><br /> Privacy Policy: <a href="https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy">https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy</a></blockquote></blockquote><p>Hi, Seda.<br />We've translated in the Eastern Armenian language with the main<br />(reformed) orthography but it should be under hy-RU not hy. Please read<br />this dialogue too.<br /><a href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058">https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058</a><br />But our translation is for Loffice 6.0. Can we merge .po files to 6.2 or<br />6.3?<br />Thanks<br />Regards, Samvel<br /> </p>--<br />Samvel Harutyunyan</blockquote>

user29 · July 12, 2019, 10:42am

Dear Seda, dear Sophi,
in that dialogue it's explained in details why we call these hy-RU and hy-IR. Is it possible to upload translations of LOffice 6.0 to Pootle as translation of 6.2 or 6.1 merging with yours or without? Here's our completed work (.po files of LOffice 6.0 in the Soviet Armenian language(hy-RU)).

Stamboltsyan_Seda · July 12, 2019, 11:13am

<div>Samvel,</div><div> </div><div>Your explanation is a mess. What you have explained about hy_AM is the following:</div><div> </div><div>"<span style="font:small monospace">For hy_AM/hye_AM the Institute of Language and Ministry of Education of RA have not yet made the official decision. There is an ongoing work on unified orthography, after completion of which, it will also be implemented under this code. For now we will use either IR or RU variant for this (subject to discussion with the min-edu)."</span></div><div><br />There is NO "ongoing work on unified orthography", as you say. And hy_AM has been used for all these years for the Eastern Armenian (that is, the main language of ARMENIA) with the main orthography used in Armenia. You write: "For now we will use either IR or RU variant for this". Really? Who has decided that? Have you asked the opinion of all the other Armenians of Armenia who are going to use LibreOffice or any other application localized for Armenia?</div><div> </div><div>Once again: the locale name hy_RU for Armenian of ARMENIA is not correct, whether it is used by your organization or some others also. A full stop. Don't attach the name of Russia to the Armenian of Armenia. And there is NO separate Armenian for the Armenians of Russia, which means there just can't be any separate locale for Armenian used in Russia.</div><div> </div><div>Please, don't insist on the wrong decision of minority (like you) against the already established and correct hy_AM.</div><div> </div><div>S.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>12.07.2019, 14:42, "ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան" <samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am>:</div><blockquote><p>On 2019-07-12 13:08, Stamboltsyan Seda wrote:</p><blockquote> I have read that dialogue, but adding or changing locales is not my<br /> competence.<br /><br /> So far, in all programs localized for Armenia the locale used has been<br /> hy_AM. If you have decided to change that to hy_RU (a horrible<br /> decision due to that RU part, which indicates Russia, and we are not<br /> part of Russia, mind it), then what is hy_AM for?<br /><br /> I don't know if it is possible to merge your and my translations. I'd<br /> like to first have a look at your translation.<br /><br /> Best,<br /> Seda<br /><br /> 12.07.2019, 12:56, "ԻԴ | Սամվել Հարությունյան"<br /> <<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>>:<br /> <blockquote> On 2019-07-11 20:21, Stamboltsyan Seda wrote: Hi, Samvel<br /><br /> I don't know what your translation is and whether it can be merged<br /> with mine. You should've registered in Pootle and made known about<br /> your work so that I might not do the work I'm doing now if we were<br /> translating in the same language and in the same orthography.<br /> Because<br /> if you have translated in the same Armenian language and the same<br /> orthography, then my translation becomes redundant and I have lost<br /> an<br /> enormous amount of time. My translation is in the Eastern Armenian<br /> (the main language used in the Republic of Armenia) and in the main<br /> (reformed) orthography used in Armenia.<br /><br /> So, you are free to make any decision with the Pootle<br /> administration.<br /> The most important thing here is that we may have a full Armenian<br /> localization of LibreOffice. If you have done it, that's great, and<br /> I'll stop translating if your translation is in the same language<br /> and<br /> orthography.<br /><br /> Best,<br /> Seda<br /><br /> 11.07.2019, 16:35, "<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>"<br /> <<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>>:<br /> There are 4 types of Armenian locales added to Loffice. We've<br /> translated hy-RU, and now we are translating hy-IR(Armenian with<br /> classical orthography). Please, read this<br /><br /> </blockquote> dialog.<br><br><a href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058">https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058</a><br><br><div<blockquote> class="quote" style="line-height: 1.5"><br><br>-------- Original<br /> Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Add hy-RU to<br /> the<br /> Pootle translation server<br>From: sophi<br /> <<a href="mailto:sophi@libreoffice.org">sophi@libreoffice.org</a>><br>To: ԻԴ | Սամվել<br /> Հարությունյան<br /><br /> </blockquote> <<a href="mailto:samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am">samvel.harutyunyan@realschool.am</a>>,<a href="mailto:l10n@global.libreoffice.org">l10n@global.libreoffice.org</a><br>CC:<blockquote> <br><br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote"<br /> style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br /> solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Samvel,<br>Le 11/07/2019 à 09:15, ԻԴ<br /> |<br /> Սամվել Հարությունյան a écrit :<br>> Hi,<br>><br /> We've started translating Libreoffice-6.0 at march 2018 in<br /> Armenian<br>> (hy-RU) and finished a few days ago. Now we try apply<br /> it on libreoffice<br>> 6.2 or 6.1 but a part of UI isn't<br /> translated. We haven't upload it<br>> Pootle yet. Please add hy-RU<br /> language to your server. Please help us<br>> make translation of<br /> latest version without doing whole work again.<br><br>Thanks for<br /> your work! Armenian is already in<br /> Pootle:<br><a href="https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/">https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hy/</a><br>Are<br /> you in contact with Seda already, he is administrator of<br /> your<br>language in Pootle?<br>Cheers<br>Sophie<br><br>--<br /> <br>Sophie<br /> Gautier <a href="mailto:sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org">sophie.gautier@documentfoundation.org</a><br>GSM:<br /> +33683901545<br>IRC: sophi<br>Release coordinator<br>The Document<br /> Foundation<br></blockquote></div>--<br /> To unsubscribe e-mail to: <a href="mailto:l10n+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org">l10n+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org</a><br /> Problems?<br /><br /> </blockquote> <a href="https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/">https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/</a><blockquote> Posting guidelines + more:<br /> <a href="https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette">https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette</a><br /> List archive: <a href="https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/">https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/</a><br /> Privacy Policy: <a href="https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy">https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy</a></blockquote><br /> Hi, Seda.<br /> We've translated in the Eastern Armenian language with the main<br /> (reformed) orthography but it should be under hy-RU not hy. Please<br /> read<br /> this dialogue too.<br /> <a href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058">https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058</a><br /> But our translation is for Loffice 6.0. Can we merge .po files to 6.2<br /> or<br /> 6.3?<br /> Thanks<br /> Regards, Samvel<br /> --<br /> Samvel Harutyunyan</blockquote><p><br />Dear Seda, dear Sophi,<br />in that dialogue it's explained in details why we call these hy-RU and<br />hy-IR. Is it possible to upload translations of LOffice 6.0 to Pootle as<br />translation of 6.2 or 6.1 merging with yours or without? Here's our<br />completed work (.po files of LOffice 6.0 in the Soviet Armenian<br />language(hy-RU)).<br /> </p>--<br />Samvel Harutyunyan</blockquote>

erAck · July 12, 2019, 4:13pm

Hi Stamboltsyan,

<div>Samvel,</div><div> </div><div>Your explanation is a mess. What you have explained about hy_AM is the following:</div><div> </div><div>"<span style="font:small monospace">For hy_AM/hye_AM the Institute of Language and Ministry of Education of RA have not yet made the official decision. There is an ongoing work on unified orthography, after completion of which, it will also be implemented under this code. For now we will use either IR or RU variant for this (subject to discussion with the min-edu)."</span></div><div><br />There is NO "ongoing work on unified orthography", as you say. And hy_AM has been used for all these years for the Eastern Armenian (that is, the main language of ARMENIA) with the main orthography used in Armenia. You write: "For now we will use either IR or RU variant for this". Really? Who has decided that? Have you asked the opinion of all the other Armenians of Armenia who are going to use LibreOffice or any other application localized for Armenia?</div><div> </div><div>Once again: the locale name hy_RU for Armenian of ARMENIA is not correct, whether it is used by your organization or some others also. A full stop. Don't attach the name of Russia to the Armenian of Armenia. And there is NO separate Armenian for the Armenians of Russia, which means there just can't be any separate locale for Armenian used in Russia.</div><div> </div><div>Please, don't insist on the wrong decision of minority (like you) against the already established and correct hy_AM.</div><div> </div><div>S.</div>

(Btw, could you *please* teach your mail client to send proper plain
text as the text/plain message body? Thanks.)

To explain why such crux workaround is necessary from the technical side:

There are 5 variants to write Armenian, as per
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116058#c2
but only 4 distinct language tags. Omitting A.2) 'axm' there leaves us
with 4 variants and 3 distinct language tags. To resolve that from
a *technical* point it was addressed with commit
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=01d9d5b491d03004b3690c2a1ff4d99997e02a5a
which as possible tags added hy-RU and hy-IR.

This has nothing to do with attaching Armenians to Russia or whatsoever.
This is a technical workaround solution, not a political one.

If the IANA language tag registry knew distinct variant subtags for the
different ortographies then all this wouldn't be a problem. To properly
solve this best would be to request such variant subtags, see
http://langtag.net/register-new-subtag.html

I don't know if and what difference there is between the current 'hy'
translation and the most common ortography (is it the "Modern"/USSR1940
Armenian orthography, or something else?) and the proposed hy-RU, but
please resolve this dispute in a sensible manner.

The 'hy' tag default locale is of course hy-AM and whatever the most
common ortography used with Eastern Armenian as used in Armenia is
should be translated under the 'hy' tag.

Eike

Stamboltsyan_Seda · July 12, 2019, 4:33pm

I hope this message is in plain text format (I didn't know the reason for the added tags; thanks for telling it; this problem is new for me). But if the messiness continues in this message also, please, disregard it. Thanks.

I don't know if and what difference there is between the current 'hy'
translation and the most common ortography (is it the "Modern"/USSR1940
Armenian orthography, or something else?) and the proposed hy-RU, but
please resolve this dispute in a sensible manner.

No difference. And yes, the most common Armenian orthography is the "modern"/USSR1940 one.

I have already sent an extensive explanation to Samvel and am not going to discuss the issue of Armenian locales any more. I sent that message without including l10n@global.libreoffice.org address to save you from reading my long messy messages.

Best,
Seda

user29 · July 12, 2019, 12:51pm

Dear Seda,

We are sorry if our explanation seems messy to you.

We have been in contact with (back-then) head of Language Committee, and also have seen (obviously overstated in our subjective opinion) claims by Min.Diaspora that they are working on unified orthography.

While our subjective opinion is that they are exaggerated, we have no authority to claim that it's a false statement, and cannot officially ignore that or state otherwise.

The questionable work on unified orthography is, however, tangential to this discussion and has only secondary role for decision to use hye(soviet) for hy_RU. If you are really interested in actual situation, please read on, and also feel free to contact us at +374 55 409 809 for a more thorough explanations.

Following is our mission:

We are building a GNU/Linux based OS with full support of all Armenian literary (Գրական) language versions except middle-Armenian.

Namely:
1) Grabar - ISO 639-3 code "xcl",
2) Western Armenian (ISO 639-3 code "hyw")
3) and Eastern Armenian (639-3 code "hye")

And including both orthographies for Armenian Eastern variant:
3*) Eastern classic
3**) Eastern modern

Note that unfortunately ISO 639-3 does not distinguish between the 2, therefore we have decided to use ISO 3166 codes for differentiation, namely:
a) RU - definitely meaning hye(modern), because Armenian diaspora in RF is mainly educated with hye-modern
b) IR - definitely meaning hye(classic), because Armenian diaspora of Iran is mainly educated with hye-classic
c) AM - here we are in dilemma. Official laws of Armenia do not isolate any of the 1,2,3,3*,3** as official language of the republic. We have double-checked this with the State Lanugate Committee of RA in writing and have written response.

Here a little more technical details are due to understand why it is a problem and what solution has been chosen for it:

As you probably know for LOCALE setting one typically specifies 2 codes - a language code (typically ISO-639) and a country code (typically ISO 3166).

So in our GNU/Linux based Operating System, one who resides in RF would definitely have RU in their LOCALE, and one in Iran wout definitely have IR. And since we care about the diasporas, we do want to support them, and this is tangential to the problem mentioned in (c) above.

But for somebody who lives in Armenia, we can unambiguously set proper locales only for hyw_AM and xcl_AM, while for hye_AM (and one could argue that also for hy_AM) we have lack of clarity in legislation. De-facto the population of Armenia would probably vote for hye_AM meaning armenian-eastern with modern orthography. While a small team of researchers, including us, would prefer it to mean armenian-eastern with classic orthogrpahy. Finally, as mentioned in statement that you have referred to, the head of Language Committee told to us that currently they are urged by Min-Diaspora to not give any definitive answer to that, but only promise to give it after coming to consensus about "unified armenian orthography".

Bottom line, our locale numeration goes as following:
1) xcl_RU, xcl_IR, xcl_AM - Classic Armenian
2) hyw_RU, hyw_IR, hyw_AM - Western Armenian
3) hye_IR - Eastern Armenian with Classic Orthogrpahy
4) hye_RU - Eastern Armenian with Modern (aka soviet) Orthography
5) hye_AM - our personal choice for the GNU/Linux OS we are building - Eastern Armenian with Classic Orthography
6) hy_AM - our choice is hye_AM, although one could go as far as arguing that this should be xcl_AM (e.g. Alexander Qananyan - who is advising us in this activity)

Hope this makes it clear and we will be glad to cooperate with you on any of the above mentioned topics, as well as continue this specific discussion related with LibreOffice. I hope it is clear from above that we need to have differentiation in nomenclature, to distinguish the Armenian Eastern Modern and Armenian Eastern Classic. If you have strong preference for Armenian Eastern Modern (your translations) to be named somehow - we can respect those preferences, unless they contradict the industrial standards of naming the locales. We believe that OpenOffice team does respect GNU/Linux (and generally POSIX) approach of using ISO codes for locale names, and more specifically - language code + country code combination.

For that purpose, let's narrow down our discussion to following:

Our team needs to put in translations of Armenain Eastern Classic, Armenian Eastern Modern/Soviet, and Armenian Classic. The other variants will come later in our roadmap. For these 3 we are using the following codes:

1) Armenian Classic: xcl (any country code)
2) Armenian Eastern Classic: hye_IR, hy_IR, and unless you have strong objections, also hy_AM and hye_AM
3) Amrenian Eastern Modern: hye_RU, hy_RU (we believe that your main argument is that this should also be denoted by hy_AM and hye_AM?)

Please note that due to orthographic ambiguity between 2/3 the "hy" and "hye" alone cannot denote a locale (PO file) unambiguously, so country code needs to be specified.

If you agree with this clarification of the subject of our discussion, then, please, let's complete it asap and come up with solution that is not only respecting our own desires, but legislation of Armenia and also future generation rights. Specifically - we cannot claim that there is a legal justification for hy_AM/hye_AM = hy_RU/hye_RU (i.e. denote modern orthography), nor there is a legal justification for it to denote classic orthography (hy_IR/hye_IR). More precisely/pedantically, ase mentioned in (6) above, there is no even legal justification to assume that hy = hye. So we have following open questions:

1) hy = hye or rather leave it ambiguous and let each Operating System Vendor make their own choice, and even let User decide?
2) hye_AM = classic or modern variant of Eastern orthography ?

Our preferred answers are:
1) hy = xcl
2) hye_AM = classic orthography of Eastern Armenian

But we realize that our customers will force us to use:
1) hy = hye
2) hy_AM = soviet orthography
3) they would not care about hye_AM or anything else.

We strongly believe that "politically correct" way of solving the situation is:
1) ask our customers to set OS LOCALE to hy_RU if they want to use Eastern Armenian with modern orthography
2) ask our customers to set OS LOCALE to hy_IR if they want to use Eastern Armenian with classic orthogrpahy
3) temporarily use hy/hye_AM for Eastern Armenian Classic until our MinEdu/Language Committee will come up with a clarification

From your argumentation, it seems that you would prefer to use Eastern Armenian Modern for (3). Can we say that this is the main argument we have to discuss now, or is there any other point that needs to be revisited as well?

Sorry for lengthy (but hopefully not messy) discussion, and thank you for cooperation.

Sincerely,
RealSchool
translators team

erAck · July 22, 2019, 10:41pm

Hi,

So, having read this again twice I'm still trying to understand.. but it
looks somewhat clearer now.

Following is our mission:

We are building a GNU/Linux based OS with full support of all Armenian
literary (Գրական) language versions except middle-Armenian.

Namely:
1) Grabar - ISO 639-3 code "xcl",
2) Western Armenian (ISO 639-3 code "hyw")
3) and Eastern Armenian (639-3 code "hye")

And including both orthographies for Armenian Eastern variant:
3*) Eastern classic
3**) Eastern modern

Note that unfortunately ISO 639-3 does not distinguish between the 2,

It is not the role of ISO 639-3 to distinguish between ortographies. ISO
639 defines codes for *languages*. For distinguishing ortographies it
comes to BCP 47 "Tags for Identifying Languages", see
http://langtag.net/ and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646

I already mentioned in an earlier mail that the proper way would be to
request language tag subtags for different ortographies from IANA, and
possibly let one ortography be the default so it's redundant to specify
it in a language tag.

therefore we have decided to use ISO 3166 codes for differentiation, namely:
a) RU - definitely meaning hye(modern), because Armenian diaspora in RF is
mainly educated with hye-modern
b) IR - definitely meaning hye(classic), because Armenian diaspora of Iran
is mainly educated with hye-classic
c) AM - here we are in dilemma. Official laws of Armenia do not isolate any
of the 1,2,3,3*,3** as official language of the republic. We have
double-checked this with the State Lanugate Committee of RA in writing and
have written response.

If there is no offcial view on this then for hy-AM use the most widely
used ortography written by the majority of the people speaking Armenian
in Armenia. I think this is what Seda is and was translating.

Here a little more technical details are due to understand why it is a
problem and what solution has been chosen for it:

As you probably know for LOCALE setting one typically specifies 2 codes - a
language code (typically ISO-639) and a country code (typically ISO 3166).

Though language and country code are only the most basic tag of a locale.
Proper language tags know more subtags and ways to combine, for example
ca-valencia-ES, de-1901-DE, en-oxendict-GB

For such differences the GNU glibc came up with the locale @modifier for
a very few variations, so there's for example ca_ES@valencia and
sr_RS@latin, though these are only a kludge to the underlying problem
that the locale mechanisms don't understand proper language tags
(ca-valencia-ES and sr-Latn-RS). However, LibreOffice does understand
them, and *iff* proper subtags are registered they can be used, i.e. the
ca-valencia and sr-Latn translations do exist.

So in our GNU/Linux based Operating System, one who resides in RF would
definitely have RU in their LOCALE, and one in Iran wout definitely have IR.
And since we care about the diasporas, we do want to support them, and this
is tangential to the problem mentioned in (c) above.

But for somebody who lives in Armenia, we can unambiguously set proper
locales only for hyw_AM and xcl_AM, while for hye_AM (and one could argue
that also for hy_AM) we have lack of clarity in legislation. De-facto the
population of Armenia would probably vote for hye_AM meaning
armenian-eastern with modern orthography.

Which is what I was assuming and postulating.

While a small team of researchers,
including us, would prefer it to mean armenian-eastern with classic
orthogrpahy.

That apparently only a minority of Armenians in Armenia speak and write.

Finally, as mentioned in statement that you have referred to,
the head of Language Committee told to us that currently they are urged by
Min-Diaspora to not give any definitive answer to that, but only promise to
give it after coming to consensus about "unified armenian orthography".

Bottom line, our locale numeration goes as following:
1) xcl_RU, xcl_IR, xcl_AM - Classic Armenian

Btw, it was pointed out to me that it is Classical Armenian, not
Classic, also ISO 639 and the IANA language tag registry say so. Already
changed in master.

2) hyw_RU, hyw_IR, hyw_AM - Western Armenian
3) hye_IR - Eastern Armenian with Classic Orthogrpahy
4) hye_RU - Eastern Armenian with Modern (aka soviet) Orthography
5) hye_AM - our personal choice for the GNU/Linux OS we are building -
Eastern Armenian with Classic Orthography

This IMHO is wrong. See above about "most widely used".

6) hy_AM - our choice is hye_AM, although one could go as far as arguing
that this should be xcl_AM (e.g. Alexander Qananyan - who is advising us in
this activity)

There is no difference between hy-AM and hye-AM, it is only ISO 639-1 vs
639-3, 'hy' and 'hye' are equivalent, see
https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/hye

As LibreOffice prefers the ISO 639-1 code if available (because doing so
eased interoperability with software not understanding ISO 639-3 codes)
the current translation to Eastern Armenian uses 'hy' instead of 'hye'.

'xcl' on the other hand is Classical Armenian, a historical language,
see https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/xcl and not a choice for a living
language translation nor would an xcl-AM locale be (unless that is to be
used with the Classical Armenian of course).

So, to recap, if I understood correctly:
* the current LibreOffice 'hy' translation (assigned locale hy-AM) uses
  the modern ortography
* for some GNU/Linux distribution you are translating modern ortography
  using the hy-RU locale, and classic ortography using the hy-AM locale
* you want LibreOffice to do the same, despite it already uses hy-AM for
  the modern ortography as the more widely used

Our team needs to put in translations of Armenain Eastern Classic, Armenian
Eastern Modern/Soviet, and Armenian Classic. The other variants will come
later in our roadmap. For these 3 we are using the following codes:

1) Armenian Classic: xcl (any country code)
2) Armenian Eastern Classic: hye_IR, hy_IR, and unless you have strong
objections, also hy_AM and hye_AM
3) Amrenian Eastern Modern: hye_RU, hy_RU (we believe that your main
argument is that this should also be denoted by hy_AM and hye_AM?)

Please note that due to orthographic ambiguity between 2/3 the "hy" and
"hye" alone cannot denote a locale (PO file) unambiguously, so country code
needs to be specified.

This is not true. There can be a 'hy' translation as the "default" one
for 'hy-AM' and a 'hy-RU' or 'hy-IR' translation to distinguish, similar
to 'pt' and 'pt-BR' (Portuguese and Portuguese Brazilian).

If you agree with this clarification of the subject of our discussion, then,
please, let's complete it asap and come up with solution that is not only
respecting our own desires, but legislation of Armenia and also future
generation rights.

I repeat: register ortography variant subtags with IANA. That is the
only clean solution.

Specifically - we cannot claim that there is a legal
justification for hy_AM/hye_AM = hy_RU/hye_RU (i.e. denote modern
orthography), nor there is a legal justification for it to denote classic
orthography (hy_IR/hye_IR).

But it is fair to assume and common sense that the most widely used
ortography of Armenian as spoken in Armenia should be assigned the
locale of hy-AM.

More precisely/pedantically, ase mentioned in
(6) above, there is no even legal justification to assume that hy = hye.

There is ISO 639 that says so. It doesn't need any further legal
justification.

So
we have following open questions:

1) hy = hye or rather leave it ambiguous and let each Operating System
Vendor make their own choice, and even let User decide?

To me: modern, as the default ortography.

2) hye_AM = classic or modern variant of Eastern orthography ?

To me: modern, same as hy-AM, no difference.

Our preferred answers are:
1) hy = xcl

Definitely wrong. See ISO 639.

2) hye_AM = classic orthography of Eastern Armenian

I doubt it.

Are there any numbers on usage of classic vs modern orthography?

But we realize that our customers will force us to use:
1) hy = hye
2) hy_AM = soviet orthography
3) they would not care about hye_AM or anything else.

Nor does software. hy=hye.

We strongly believe that "politically correct" way of solving the situation
is:
1) ask our customers to set OS LOCALE to hy_RU if they want to use Eastern
Armenian with modern orthography

I think that's wrong, *and* politically incorrect if you expect
Armenians to do so for the most widely used orthography.

2) ask our customers to set OS LOCALE to hy_IR if they want to use Eastern
Armenian with classic orthogrpahy
3) temporarily use hy/hye_AM for Eastern Armenian Classic until our
MinEdu/Language Committee will come up with a clarification

I don't see any justification to use hy-AM for Eastern Armenian Classic.
Specifically anything temporary will just lead to confusion, even more
if 'hy' and hy-AM are already used with modern orthography. Also note
that document content already tagged with hy-AM expects the context of
the so far used modern orthography, for example spell-checking and
locale data dependant formatting. Changing that to a different
orthography and even worse, possibly changing it back after some
authority may have made up its mind, will yield unexpected results and
at the end just frustrate the user.

From your argumentation, it seems that you would prefer to use Eastern
Armenian Modern for (3). Can we say that this is the main argument we have
to discuss now, or is there any other point that needs to be revisited as
well?

As said, I think the 'hy' translation and thus default hy-AM locale
assigned should be for the most widely used ortography.

Meanwhile, for some possible solution if you don't like to use hy-IR for
Eastern Armenian Classic and if it is for UI translation only, not
document content attribution, Eastern Armenian Classic could use
a private use subtag, for example hy-x-clssic, see
https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#section-2.2.7

When it comes to document content things get hairy, because as the
terminology indicates, private use tags are private.. they are not
suited for information exchange, as parties have to agree on it and
a third party might come up with the same tag and a different meaning or
just does not interpret it in the privately agreed manner. See also
https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#section-4.6

Hence, again, best solution is to register an ortography variant subtag
with IANA, see http://langtag.net/register-new-subtag.html

Eike

Stamboltsyan_Seda · July 23, 2019, 5:05am

Thanks, Eike

If there is no offcial view on this then for hy-AM use the most widely
used ortography written by the majority of the people speaking Armenian
in Armenia. I think this is what Seda is and was translating.

You are right; I am translating LO 6.2 using the main (modern) orthography of the Republic of Armenia. The translation of LO 6.0 accomplished by Samvel's school that he wants to add to Pootle ALSO uses that same orthography and the same language.

The rest of your message concerning locales is for Samvel, so I'll finish here.

Best,
Seda

erAck · July 23, 2019, 10:20am

Hi,

Proper language tags know more subtags and ways to combine, for example
ca-valencia-ES, de-1901-DE, en-oxendict-GB

Must had been too late.. for completeness, the correct tags are
ca-ES-valencia, de-DE-1901 and en-GB-oxendict. The language only tags
would be ca-valencia, de-1901 and en-oxendict.

Eike