Compatibility LO/MSO

Hi,

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple documents, containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and bulleted lists, differently. These differences are from both sides: a document is created in LO, stored in odf and opened in MSO (2013) and vice versa: created in MSO, stored in docx and opened in LO.

I would like to understand the situation and to know
- if it is just a bug (perhaps on both sides)
- if some standard local settings are applied, which result in different display
- if it is a fundamental problem residing deep in the ODF and OOXML standards
- if the reason is somewhere else

Do you have an idea?
Thanks
Milos

Hi,

- if the reason is somewhere else

Do you have an idea?

Styles. Or lack of.

For Writer's .docx display, the developers had to create the driver/filter from scratch, since MS does not offer hardly any information about their format. MS wanted it to be the "International Standard" but they would not provide all of the needed "openness" needed for other to use it. As of MSO's display of .odt, well itis the same mindset. MS decided to go their own way with their use of that file format. Personally, I think MS is deliberatelymaking "issues" to "prove" that the ODF does not, and will not, work as a International Standard and people should not use it [and buy MSO instead of using FOSS packages like LO].

ODF is fully open and fully defined

OOXML is not fully open and not fully defined due to proprietary format information that is included with it [as far as I have been told].

Also, if I was going to send documents back and forth between a LO user and MSO user, I would use the older formats like .doc and the other from pre MSO 2007 format changes.

by the way.
MSO 2013 can read MSO 2010 .docx files.
MSO 2010 may not be able to read MSO 2013 files.
The same goes with MSO 2007 and 2010.
MS keeps changing their OOXML formats with every new version of Office.

Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

OOXML is not fully open and not fully defined due to proprietary format information that is included with it [as far as I have been told].

Lots of info on this at Groklaw:

http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20051216153153504
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20080719233709726

Hi :)  
My own personal views from observations, NOT TDF's view and nothing to do with anyone else involved with LibreOffice is as follows.  Check the voracity for yourself.  Don't rely on what people spoon-feed you!

There are 2 problems in play.

1.  Any document in any editable format will display differently on different machines with different printers attached and different settings&configurations.

2.  MS is unable to follow a standard.  Even the so-called standards they created themselves.  The OOXML is implemented differently in each of their versions such that a document written in MS Office 2007 may well display differently in MS Office 2010 on the same machine.  If you install 2010 yourself then you might notice their disclaimer that even on the same machine if you have 2 versions of their OS, say Xp and Win7, then MS Office 2010 documents may well be different on each.  None of their implementations seem to match the ISO standard they managed to push through as an ISO format.

As for their attempts to follow the ODF they carefully went for the old 1.1 version when everyone else had already moved to ODF 1.2.  Their reasoning sounded solid.  The 1.2, despite having been in use for years, had not been fully released and was still being called a beta release.  So, MS Office 2010's 'support' for ODF was based on an ancient format that no-one was still using at the time.

If you look back at the court case about MS's "RTF" format which they had designed to allow all programs to be compatible with each other then you might notice similarities with the current situation with their OOXML format.

MS are a profit making company and they need to find ways to get people to buy their new versions.  'Accidental' incompatibilities with their older formats pushes everyone to buy their newer versions at around the same time in order to be able to read/write each others documents.  The MS formats are subject to radical change at the whim of 1 single profit-making company.

Of course any program has a few issues but when they are spotted in LibreOffice it's easy to post a bug-report about it.  If MS's implementation of their format is a bit off then it's practically impossible to post a bug-report or get anyone to listen to the problem

The only formats that currently seem to truly work just fine across all different programs are the older MS formats.  The ones that don't end in X, so NOT DocX, XlsX and the rest of the OOXML ones.  The ones that do seem to work best are the Doc, Xls and so on.  However, ODF is starting to be used more often by more people.  For longer-term storage of documents it might be wise to store them in ODF but for current active collaborations the Doc, Xls and so on are more widely used at the moment.

The ODF ISO standard is set and agreed by an independent organisation called OASIS.  Many different companies, including TDF, have at least 1 person sitting on the board at OASIS in order to make sure that there is agreement about the standard itself and acceptable variances in it's implementation.  It's not going to suddenly change if IBM release a new version of Lotus Symphony.  So it's a lot more stable, predictable and reliable.  Also because it's implementation matches the standard that has been written up, published and fairly easy for everyone to access it means that the format is 'always' going to be possible to read certainly for longer than the old Rtf, Doc, or DocX.  So the future is ODF.

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

Hungry, Tom? LOL Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Hi :slight_smile:
Dohh!  You are right.  I did get the wrong word!!  I was trying to be too clever and tripped over my own shoe-laces.  I think i meant "veracity" but i'm not even sure that is correct now.

Hmmm, pizza and wine does sound like a good plan now you mention it! :slight_smile:
Thanks and regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

"Milos Sramek":

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple documents, containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and bulleted lists, differently. I would like to understand the situation and to know

This is an intentional strategy of vendor lock-in using ODF document formats. The competitive formats are implemented not fully or with deliberate errors.

Hi Milos,

Milos Sramek schrieb:

Hi,

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple documents,
containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and bulleted lists,
differently. These differences are from both sides: a document is
created in LO, stored in odf and opened in MSO (2013)

Do you mean, that you write to .odt and open the document then in MSO-2013?

Are you writing with ODF1.2 or with ODF 1.2 extended? In case of ODF 1.2 extended, you cannot expect that MSO can read it the same way, because is might contain parts which are specific to LO.

Do you write and reopen the document on the same machine? Otherwise make sure, that you have installed the same fonts on both machines.

  and vice versa:

created in MSO, stored in docx and opened in LO.

I would like to understand the situation and to know
- if it is just a bug (perhaps on both sides)
- if some standard local settings are applied, which result in different
display
- if it is a fundamental problem residing deep in the ODF and OOXML
standards

If one application writes ODF (without extended) and another application reads this file and shows it with large differences, then there might be errors in the application, but it can be shortcomings in the specification as well. In such cases you should provide sample documents and detailed descriptions, so that it is possible to investigate.

Kind regards
Regina

Hi :slight_smile:
Mistakes happen but with ODF it's easy to post a bug-report against whichever programs (except against MS ones) had trouble and get a response.  With MS formats you just have to accept the problems.
Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

Is this also true if you use MS 1997~2003 .doc format? And if not, then why not use that format?

--doug

Every MSO will work fine with .doc from 2003 through 2013.
Most FOSS packages work well with it as well.

For me, if I need to deal with MSO users, 99% should have 2003 or later so I am 99% sure that any .doc file will work fine with their version of MSO. I do not send .docx in case the user runs 2003. That is where I stopped getting MSO.

I have a lady who sends me, and everyone else her .docx files that are unreadable by anyone that does not have the newest MSO. Since she does not want anyone to edit it, I told her about using PDF file instead, or at least .doc files.