Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office

users
#1

Hi :slight_smile:
I've been thinking about this over-night a bit and it's the same old
problem. People hear MS Office and think that it's all the same.

One local charity is finding that on the rare occasion they get a new
machine one of the first things they have to do is to install a
different version of MS Office. Since most of their current machines
are on 2003 they have 2 major blockers to using anything more recent.
None of them know how to use any of the ribbon-bars and they don't
know "Save As ..." ...

Now they are trying to partner with an organisation that uses 2010
they are running into an additional problem because their IT Support
is not trained to handle problems with 2010 so they can't upgrade to
it yet. Plus 2010 is the old version so their support wants to
upgrade to 365 and "get everything on the Cloud". So at the end of
all that training and money they still wont be able to share files
with the 2010 people.

Also a lot of their service users will then have to upgrade because
their existing machines with their existing "gratis" version of MS
Office wont be able to handle newer files. Some will, some wont. All
the ones that crucially need to share files are likely to have
problems.

So just because people get MS Office for free on a new machine doesn't
mean they will find it easy to share with other MS Office users. So
they might well need to buy another version.

Also on newer machines MS have started running a cunning scheme
whereby people get to use a trial version of MS Office which then
stops working after a month or so. In order to keep on using it
people have to pay an extra bit.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#2

Tom Davies wrote:

Also on newer machines MS have started running a cunning scheme
whereby people get to use a trial version of MS Office which then
stops working after a month or so. In order to keep on using it
people have to pay an extra bit.

That happened to a friend of mine about 3 years ago. She's now running
OpenOffice.

#3

I didn't know we considered trialware "cunning".

#4

hi. I work in a state school, using ms windows and ms office...  i think I know the policy of microsoft.  I think they use a sort of (apparent) programmed obsolescence for the software.  I mean: periodically they add a new version with some changes in interface, macro programming, functions and file structure, which is installed on new computers. the new version is voluntarily incompatible with the previous ones.  It's a matter of marketing, not innovation.  where I work, people are always complaining that what works on a computer (files, macro etc..)  doesn't work on another.  the school, on the other way, doesn't want to spend money on new software licenses  (very expensive in italy).  so, why don't they change ?   they don't know enough about LibreOffice; they would need demonstrations or some training (some training is done, but always on ms office, I don't know which version...  are they trained every new version?), I guess...   I
think microsoft did the same politics with charities and schools:  discounted prices (but they are still stealing money somehow...). other software producers (autodesk) are doing similar things...   schools are good marketing targets... ideas?

I didn't know we considered trialware "cunning".

#5

John Meyer wrote:

I didn't know we considered trialware "cunning".

They let people create & edit documents for a while and then hold them
hostage, until the users coughs up for MS Office.

#6

Paolo Debortoli wrote:

think microsoft did the same politics with charities and schools: discounted prices (but they are still stealing money somehow...)

One thing MS got caught doing was providing free software to charities
and then claiming full retail value as a tax deduction.

#7

James wrote in response to John:

I didn't know we considered trialware "cunning".

They let people create & edit documents for a while and then hold them
hostage, until the users coughs up for MS Office.

I wouldn't consider it either cunning or holding people hostage to provide them with a free trial of software that is otherwise only available for a price. That, indeed, has been the essence of shareware -- try before you buy. Anybody obtaining a trial version of MS-Office is clearly told that it is a trial version; no cunning, no deception.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

The creators of the shareware concept (I recall Bob Wallace of the PC-Write days) realized that buying software is often a crap-shoot. You don't know until after you've bought the program whether it will do what you need, or whether you will appreciate the manner in which it does it. This is especially important in the case of an office suite as users will tend to use them on a daily basis, eventually becoming married to their program. MS allows some users to try their program before making such a commitment.

For my part, on my last computer purchase, I received a free "starter" version of MS-Office, with some limitations on features, but without any limitation on time. I can use the starter version forever.

I'm no fan of MS, and I'm sure I don't fully understand all of its business practices, but I truly hope that disdain for Redmond is not the primary motivation for LO and other forms of FOSS. And, yet, it's a theme that recurs on nearly every FOSS related forum I read.

IMHO, it's better to focus on what's good about LO than what's evil about MS.

Virgil

Software

#8

Hi Virgil,

About 13 years ago I started doing some website work. I used Microsoft Frontpage. I had no feelings about Microsoft one way or another. I figured if I was doing some website work, I should get some tech e-mails. That is where I started learning about Microsoft. Some of the things they've done are listed here, in a report to the European Commission:
http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf

Think about the number of companies they have put out of business, not because of superior Microsoft products, but because of greed and unethical practices. Think of the employees of those companies who lost their jobs. Look at the companies Microsoft has partnered with through the years. Most of them have gone broke. Look at their promise to have their formats be open standards. How many years ago was that promise? Are they trying to make it happen? Look at the way they were bribing people to get the ISO approval. I could go on all night.

I didn't wake up one morning and decide I'm not going to like Microsoft. My feelings towards them developed over a period of years. The tactics they used in the past they are still trying to use today. I try to be an honest, ethical person. I prefer to do business with honest, ethical companies, and support honest, ethical folks like The Document Foundation.

Don

#9

<soapbox>
The distain goes both ways. Remember that Stave Ballmer called open source
software (specifically Linux) a cancer. Microsoft has a long history of
passing similar opinions about FLOSS as fact and using their monopoly
status to cull any competition. Why can you not buy a computer that is
already configured to dual boot? Or why is it so difficult to buy a
computer with no operating system? Microsoft has decreed to computer
manufacturers not to do so or they will not get Windows at such ridiculous
prices.
Libre Office and other FLOSS software is not born out of distain for MS and
other closed source software. they exist because the people who create,
enhance, and maintain them are passionate about what they do and the
freedom that FLOSS gives to users. The distain comes along the way as big
companies such as MS and Oracle use cheap and underhanded tactics to try
negate and destroy what they do. To be honest, there are some things that
MS Office does much better than LO and other FLOSS Office suites. I
personally refuse to purchase MS Office for personal reasons and will do
what I can to help people realize that they do not need MS products (share
ware or otherwise) and safe themselves from the constant purchase of the
same software over and over.
</soapbox>

John Kennedy (_8(|)

http://www.shepherdrescue.org
Why would anyone foster a dog/cat?
I would rather cry watching them leave our home to live a life of happiness
and joy in a loving home than cry because no one stepped up to help them
and they died alone, frightened, and sad in a shelter.

"Try to learn something about everything and everything about something."

-Thomas Henry Huxley

I'm no fan of MS, and I'm sure I don't fully understand all of its business

#10

"John Kennedy"

Why can you not buy a computer that is already configured to dual boot?

Because no one needs it.

Or why is it so difficult to buy a computer with no operating system?

Because people buy computers to work, not to tinker with.

Microsoft has decreed to computer manufacturers not to do so or they will not get Windows at such ridiculous prices.

And that's Windows what is in demand, not your favorite toy OS.

#11

"Virgil Arrington":

I'm no fan of MS, and I'm sure I don't fully understand all of its business
practices, but I truly hope that disdain for Redmond is not the primary
motivation for LO and other forms of FOSS.

Foss people are hurt that no one is interested in their bungles except occasional corrupted officials. They are imagine themselves as grown-ups and do not understand why the adults pet their heads and tell them to go play elsewhere.

Just think about it: there was NOT A SINGLE successful FOSS-created project so far.

#12

Mac OS X (based on BSD and the Mach kernel)
Android (based on Linux)
Linux
apache
Firefox
ant
gcc
OpenJDK
xerces
xalan
fop
saxon (up to and including Saxon HE)
itext (recently commercialised)
pdfbox
Gnome
KDE
Gimp
Clojure
etc
etc
etc

Oh, yes, LibreOffice. Seems successful to me.

The world looks very small and far away when viewed through MS goggles.

Peter West

...he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins.

#13

you would be wrong, because your reasoning simply does NOT apply to
software. Not to software of this kind, at least. Try a car for free
for a week, give it back... no problem, because you would not lose
anything you had done with/thanks to that car in that week.

Office suites based on deliberately, closed, incompatible file
formats, instead are ADDICTIVE like drugs. That's why they are given
away for free (*), see here:

http://stop.zona-m.net/2010/10/microsoft-video-proves-that-microsoft-office-is-like-cocaine-and-has-dealers-inside-schools/

and why it's wrong to push software instead of, or before, file
formats, see here:

http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/11/shall-we-waste-twelve-more-years-promoting-free-office-suites-instead-of-open-office-formats/

(as a matter of fact, this whole thread is yet another proof of what I
wrote in that last post...)

Marco

(*) where "give it away for free" doesn't mean only "free trial
periods". It also means keeping the software very easy to pirate so
people learn it at home and then throw a tantrum if their company
(that can't use pirated software) tries to migrate to something else

#14

hi. I work in a state school, using ms windows and ms office... i
think I know the policy of microsoft. I think they use a sort of
(apparent) programmed obsolescence for the software.

Hi Paolo, and... NO. Not the software. They use programmed
obsolescence for the FILE FORMAT, see

http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/11/shall-we-waste-twelve-more-years-promoting-free-office-suites-instead-of-open-office-formats/

why don't they change ? they don't know enough about LibreOffice;
they would need demonstrations or some training

training to learn the different position of the same buttons and
functions is a waste of money, it's a shame that it is still
considered an option. The real training should be in other areas,
regardless of what software is used, see the post above.

other software producers (autodesk) are doing similar things...
schools are good marketing targets... ideas?

let's not waste other years promoting software before common formats.
Apart from that, thanks for mentioning Autodesk, excellent example of
the fact that MS is neither the only, nor the worst player of the
"proprietary format" game. THat is a very general issue.

              Marco

#15

Hi Marco,

This is a very important observation. Whether deliberately cultivated or not, the near universal practice of stealing, or quietly being given, a copy of an employer's software meant that MS Office products gained near-ubiquity. If people writing documents on their private computers had been obliged to but a copy of MS Office, alternatives would have been embraced much more enthusiastically. We would not have seen, as an example, demands to provide documents in MS Word format when providing a CV.

I believe that at some time in the future, former MS executives will reveal that theft was a vital element in MS' strategy for their Office products during the world colonisation phase.

Peter West

...he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins.

#16

Hi :slight_smile:
In Italy you have an excellent resource to call on. Italo Vignoli.
http://www.documentfoundation.org/contact/
He is excellent at promoting LibreOffice and is great at doing talks
or lectures about LibreOffice. Unlike some FOSS people he is
excellent at creating a good impression and at working with people who
are very high in authority in global organisations or governments. He
is roughly the equivalent (or one of the equivalents) of Head of
Marketing, or Marketing CEO, or something around that level or higher.

If you could contact him off-list then he might be quite keen to
handle the school's governing body, probably using a top-down approach
to contrast with your "grass-roots"-up approach. He can probably give
a some good advice on how to handle the whole thing and maybe develop
an "action plan" with you, using your "local knowledge". It might
even be possible for TDF to fund a trip or 2 to your school or at
least pay for travel and overnight costs.

Apparently LibreOffice/OpenOffice is around 20% of the market segment
in Europe. MS Office only has around 80% or less. It's largely down
to Italo, Sophie, and many others and local users groups.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#17

Hi :slight_smile:
Most products have numerous well-known competitors.

Normally an offer of a free trial-period is marketed to state that
after just a short time of using their product you will see how much
better it is than x, y, z because of a, b, c. So they even name some
of their competition, drawing attention to the alternatives you could
try instead.

When MS offer a free trial it is not made clear that people could
choose an alternative. The only option seems to be to either buy
their product or not use any word-processor or office programs.

There is no crap-shoot because none of the other choices are known.
It's not akin to the shareware idea at all!

However, I think people (incl me) have been too heated about this.
It's not the same as a drug-dealer giving a freebie to get someone
hooked. People are not held hostage. There is no immediate threat of
swift physical harm. It is something similar to those ideas but even
native-English speakers can't find the more precise words. Even if we
could it might not mean much to anyone else. Everyone online has
probably seen hostage scenarios and/or the drug dealer scenario on
tele or at the movies (or online) so it's the easiest way of getting
the idea across.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#18

Hi ALL LO users,

Have seen this discussion for quite sometime.

I am a very basic user - Word, Excel, ppt thats all with just enough knowledge to get my work done. No more no less. Occasionally face problems but prefer to adopt the longer route even to the extent of deleting & rewriting. Am 50 & had my first interaction with a 486 when I was 30. Used both pirated as well as licenced versions of MSO from 1993 till 2010. Made the final farewell & now have all the piece of mind. LO - gave me everything even WRITER, BASE, CALC, DRAW, IMPRESS MATH for free. With MSO you have MSO basic, MSO student, MSO home, MSO small business, MSO large business, MSO professional. Very soon they would run short of words introducing all the permutations & combinations. Have WORD but can write a 2 page letter. Buy WORD A (write 10 pages), WORD B (write 25 pages) & so on & so forth. Have but not B. Have Outlook but now WORD. You need to apply the same caution while buying a MSO package as while opting for a pre paid mobile phone scheme in India.

With LO get all in 1 GO - whether you know how to use it or not.

Have been using Open source systems since 2010. first opted for OO then a friend (authority on computers) suggested LO. Have been using it & now have the latest version. I feel almost 90% of computer users are as naive as I am, & the BEST IS we are the ones who dish out the most for the latest version of MS either office or OS. WHY? I fail to understand.

Regarding cost - have not spent a single rupee on LO, yet have the latest version. No back of the mind trouble of using a pirated version, no need to keep the update off. Can anyone ask or hope for MORE.

HATS OFF LO & to all the DEDICATED PEOPLE - THANKS A TON

BEST WISHES
Kunwar

#19

"Peter West":

Non-FOSS (BSD-licensed software):
Mac OS X (based on BSD and the Mach kernel)
Linux
gcc

Developed by commercial companies:
Android (based on Linux)
apache
Firefox
OpenJDK
saxon
LibreOffice

So far FOSS 'community' created nothing successful. Everything was designed and implemented by real software developers or universities.

#20

"James Knott" сообщил(а) в новостях следующее:529918D1.30907@rogers.com...

...and then hold [created documents]
hostage, until the users coughs up for MS Office.

There is immense number of software capable import DOC files, due to their format being virtually unchanged since 1997 or 2007. Including the Word Viewer, of course.