Customizing Number Format of each level in "Writer->Tools->Outline Numbering"

users
#1

Hello, I need help with LibreOffice Writer -> Tools -> Outline Numbering.

As long as I know Tools -> Outline Numbering in LibreOffice Writer is
somehow equivalent to defining new Multilevel list in MS Office Word 2010.
But I need some features in formating of each level in Outline
Numbering, which is not available in LibreOffice Writer but is available
in MS Word -> Multilevel list. I need some more professional formatting
of each level because I'm writing my thesis based on a template provided
by my university and I have to obey that template. In that template
(which is a .doc file) format of each level is defined in a particular
way that can be shown correctly in MS Word, but not in LibreOffice.
I need to be able to customize Number format of each level similar to MS
Word like what you can see here:

http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/word-2007-taming-multilevel-list-numbering/

If someone is professional in this issue please help me.

#2

Let me show you what exact Outline Numbering I want using the example below:

Level Example(desired output) Associated Paragraph Style
1 Chapter 3: Chapter
2 3.2- Heading 1
3 3.2.5- Heading 2
4 3.2.5.9- Heading 3
5 (b) none
6 Fig (3.12) Fig Caption
7 (3.27) Formula
8 Table (3.20) Table Caption

As you can see in the example above the '3' in "Fig (3.12)", "(3.27)"
and "Table (3.20)" is the chapter number at level 1.

But in Writer->Tools->Outline_Numbering the first digit is not '3'
(level1 number) but the first digit in level 'n' with "Show sublevels =
2" will be number of level 'n-1'.
Therefor also in the .doc template everything is stored correctly using
MS Word, but when I open it with LO Writer I see Outline Numberings as
below:

Level Example(Writer result) Associated Paragraph Style
1 Chapter 3: Chapter
2 3.2- Heading 1
3 3.2.5- Heading 2
4 3.2.5.9- Heading 3
5 (b) none
6 Fig (b.12) Fig Caption
7 (12.27) Formula
8 Table (27.20) Table Caption

How can I achieve my desired output I mentioned in first example using
LO Writer?

#3

Hi :) 
Sorry!  I couldn't find the section in the guides but you might find this helpful
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Writer_Guide
on a side issue you might find Chapter 12 interesting "Creating Tables of Contents, Indexes, and Bibliographies".  There is a plug-in/add-on/Extension that might help with that, i think "Zotero"?
http://www.zotero.org/support/word_processor_plugin_installation

How rigid is the template?

Can you create a fresh new Odt document in LibreOffice and follow the guidelines of the template without having to copy&paste anything from their template into your new document?  If there are bits you need to copy can you use paste-special to paste as unformatted text? 
Ctrl  Shift  v
rather than just
Ctrl  v

A fresh start means you neatly avoid getting stuck with lots of legacy formatting codes that might spring surprises on you randomly in the future.  It gives you more control over what you do.

If it is rigid and you can't just start afresh then it might be worth asking the University if they could give you an OpenDocument Format (ODF, specifically Odt) version rather than the proprietary one.  If not then perhaps be insolent and ask them to buy and give you the product, that is made by a foreign company, in order to be able to use their template.  Perhaps push further and ask them to supply it in a non-American 'local' language.

Errr, i am guessing you are outside of the USA because most of the world is.  Also i assumed that your native language is not English (US) because, again, most of the world speaks other languages as their 1st language, even inside the US.

Also note that ODF is an ISO standard.  ISO meaning it is agreed by an international agency made from people of many different nationalities.  While DocX also has a version that is an ISO standard that is not the one implemented in any version of MS Office so far because they all tweak it some different way that is non-compliant with the standards.

Point out that you already have the necessary tools for the job but the only reason you would have to buy product from a foreign company is to complete this 1 task, the thesis.  The tools you already have do everything else better. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#4

Hi :slight_smile:
Please could you "upload" the .doc template to Nabble so everyone can have a
look and see if we can modify it ourselves? Is there anything confidential
in it that should not be displayed to the world-wide general public? If so
then don't upload it!

In Nabble start your reply and notice the "More" button just above where you
type the message of your reply. The top option in the "More" button is to
upload a file in much the same way that you would for attaching a file to an
email.

I think your formatting got messed up by the emailing system so it might be
better to just upload a file showing roughly how you want it although the
template might explain it fully enough.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Sina Momken wrote

#5

Dear Tom,

Thank you for reading my question and trying to help.

Hi :slight_smile:
Sorry! I couldn't find the section in the guides but you might find this helpful
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Writer_Guide

About the documentation and its chapter 12 I don't think it's useful for
me now.

on a side issue you might find Chapter 12 interesting "Creating Tables

of Contents, Indexes, and Bibliographies". There is a
plug-in/add-on/Extension that might help with that, i think "Zotero"?

http://www.zotero.org/support/word_processor_plugin_installation

About Zotero, I currently use Zotero for making bibliography of my
thesis. It's very convenient to use, integrates very well with
LibreOffice and MS Word and is even better than its proprietary
equivalent "Endnote".

How rigid is the template?

Can you create a fresh new Odt document in LibreOffice and follow the guidelines of the template without having to copy&paste anything from their template into your new document? If there are bits you need to copy can you use paste-special to paste as unformatted text?
Ctrl Shift v
rather than just
Ctrl v

About using the template I can say that using the .doc template is not
necessary and my university also has provided the TeX equivalent of that
template, but not .odt format. However also using the specific .doc or
.tex format is not necessary but my thesis must follow its guidelines
(e.g. The fonts and sizes of headers, body, figs, tables, etc.)
But fortunately I could successfully import and use the .doc template
and only some minor problems like what I'm asking about is still
present. Actually there is no need to create a new .odt file from
scratch because most of the things work well.

A fresh start means you neatly avoid getting stuck with lots of legacy formatting codes that might spring surprises on you randomly in the future. It gives you more control over what you do.

Even if I want to make a .odt specific version, I must be able to make
"Figure" and "Table" numberings with Chapter numbers in themselves. How
could I do that?

If it is rigid and you can't just start afresh then it might be worth asking the University if they could give you an OpenDocument Format (ODF, specifically Odt) version rather than the proprietary one. If not then perhaps be insolent and ask them to buy and give you the product, that is made by a foreign company, in order to be able to use their template. Perhaps push further and ask them to supply it in a non-American 'local' language.

About access to an MS Office instance, I don't have any problem in
access to MS Windows, MS Office (the latest version) and many other Win
software. I even currently have them but I don't use them because first
my thesis needed some implementations in Linux, so it was hard to go
back and forth to Windows, and second I don't believe in
non-Free-Software at all.

Errr, i am guessing you are outside of the USA because most of the world is. Also i assumed that your native language is not English (US) because, again, most of the world speaks other languages as their 1st language, even inside the US.

I live in Iran and believe it or not 99% of people here use the pirated
version of the latest applications for windows. But even in this
situation the trend to Free and Open Source Software is increasing and
many Iranian People (like me) are exclusively using FOSS software. This
increasing trend is usually because of the Freedom and Capabilities that
the FOSS applications and their community bring. It's not matter of
money (because we don't buy software here!); I use LO because I believe
in Free Software and the community around it.

Also note that ODF is an ISO standard. ISO meaning it is agreed by an international agency made from people of many different nationalities. While DocX also has a version that is an ISO standard that is not the one implemented in any version of MS Office so far because they all tweak it some different way that is non-compliant with the standards.

Actually the template I have is in .doc format not .docx. And
surprisingly LO Writer works very well with .doc format even better than
.docx format. I prefer to continue my work in .doc format because it
renders well enough in LO in addition to MS Word; But .odt format
doesn't represent well in MS Word. So it's safe for me to stay with .doc
so if I needed to go back to MS Word I would encounter less issues.

Point out that you already have the necessary tools for the job but the only reason you would have to buy product from a foreign company is to complete this 1 task, the thesis. The tools you already have do everything else better.

You are right, the tools I already have do everything better and it's
the main reason I don't go back to MS Word unless as the last solution.
But I think it's possible for me to complete my thesis using only LO
Writer and I believe the Outline Numbering problem can be solved. If I
become able to completely port the .doc template to LibreOffice, I'll
save it as .odt and I'll publish it on my website and also give it back
to my university for usage in the future.

#6

Dear Tom, Thank you very very much for taking time trying to help me.

The .doc file I'm currently working on is ~200 pages, is in Farsi
language and is heavy enough that I think is not useful for you.
I can share the university template too, but its main problem is that
the template is mostly in Farsi and not understandable to others.
But I'm sure that my problem is not because of the template or its language.
So I'll translate the template to English (especially those parts of the
template that are related to this problem), then I'll write an example
with the translated template and I'll upload that example file. Using
that example file you will exactly understand what is my problem. I
guess that LO Writer UI doesn't support the exact Outline Numbering
format that I want, or there is a trick or point that I don't know. But
even if LO Writer doesn't support my requested feature, I believe there
should be an alternative solution to make the same output, because the
Outline Numbering format that I want is famous and is used in many other
publications.

Please wait, I'll make and upload the file and then post its link in
reply to this message.

#7

Hi :slight_smile:
Please don't bother to translate the document or the template!

It's not the contents that we are interested in so much as the formatting.

Errr, since we might not understand the Farsi instructions it might be good to just translate the bit about outline numbering.  You already did that in a previous email but the formatting went wrong.  So if you could copy&paste your earlier explanation into a fresh document and then upload that it might help us.

It was this sort of thing
"

Level    Example(desired output)    Associated Paragraph Style
1    Chapter 3:        Chapter
2      3.2-            Heading 1
3      3.2.5-        Heading 2
4        3.2.5.9-        Heading 3
5        (b)        none
6          Fig (3.12)    Fig Caption
7          (3.27)        Formula
8        Table (3.20)    Table Caption

"
that i think needs to go into a fresh document.  Was it a table?  Was it 3 columns?  I think i can just about see what it was meant to be but i cold easily be wrong.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#8

Hi :slight_smile:
Ok, i had misunderstood due to some prejudices of my own.

It is good to hear of a University that provides non-MS formats!  In my country it is hard-work trying to get them to accept anything else.   TeX is good.  TeX might do the outline numbering you want by default.  If you can use TeX it might be better than Writer.  it might let you copy&paste everything into TeX fairly easily?  If you are not already familiar with TeX (most people aren't and i'm one of them) then Writer should be able to do it.  I don't know how but others on the list might be able to help.

Since you are already using Zotero and Writer it sounds like you are already using the best tools and already know plenty about them.  The link to Chapter 12 assumed you were just about to start writing rather than being well into the middle of it already.

I am not sure how to do
"
Even if I want to make a .odt specific version, I must be able to make "Figure" and "Table" numberings with Chapter numbers in themselves. How
could I do that?
"
but hopefully someone else might be able to give you a good answer later.

The problem with going backwards and forwards between different formats is that sometimes you get extra codes/mark-up hidden inside the document.  Usually the best way is to keep "an original" in Odt and just edit that.  Obviously old versions and backups of it are a good plan!  Then make a copy of the document in Doc only when you need to show it to others.  Any changes made in Doc are probably better copy&pasted back into the original Odt.  it's not very convenient though!  Hopefully everyone will be happy editing in Odt one day!

I don't think that is the reason you are having troubles with numbering though and like you say it might well not have affected your document at all.

There are many countries where most people prefer to use pirated software rather than pay for it.  It's good to see some places beginning to use OpenSource more to get out of that trap.  In my country i remember people being quite happy to use pirated software but now being keen to buy that software instead.  It might be just because i am now working in a more corporate environment.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#9

Ok Tom,
It's the partially translated template, I was speaking about.
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4067241/iust_translated_english_template_for_thesis_final_(nazanin)_writable.doc

Because of lack of time I only translated Chapter 1 and Chpater 2. I
also translated the used paragraph styles and put '_' in front of those
translated paragraph styles. (e.g. _Chpater, _Fig_Caption, etc.).
Some digits are still in Farsi. (۱۲۳۴۵۶۷۸۹۰=1234567890)

As I described in the translated Chapter 2, the Numberings are
incorrect. You can see the incorrect numberings plus the expected
correct numberings above each Fig, Table or Formula.

The main reason for numberings being incorrect is
Tools->Outline_Numbering not being flexible enough.
If Tools->Outline_Numbering in LO Writer was as flexible as Multilevel
List Numberings of MS Word (as you can see in
http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/word-2007-taming-multilevel-list-numbering/)
this problem could be fixed.

After seeing this document if you still has any question about the
reason of this incorrect numberings in LO Writer, don't hesitate to ask.
Likewise, if you have any idea or possible solution I'll be more than
glad to know.

Best,
Sina Momken

#10

It seems that the tables in original message below are not readable. So
I typed the message in LO Writer and attached here:

http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4067244/Outline_number_message_2.odt

You can read the post below more clearly using the .odt file I attached
above.

#11

It seems that the tables in original message below are not readable. So I
typed the message in LO Writer and attached here:
Outline_number_message_2.odt
<http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4067244/Outline_number_message_2.odt>
You can read the post below more clearly using the .odt file I attached
above.

masterman wrote

#12

Ok Tom,
It's the partially translated template, I was speaking about.
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4067241/iust_translated_english_template_for_thesis_final_(nazanin)_writable.doc

Because of lack of time I only translated Chapter 1 and Chpater 2. I
also translated the used paragraph styles and put '_' in front of those
translated paragraph styles. (e.g. _Chpater, _Fig_Caption, etc.).
Some digits are still in Farsi. (۱۲۳۴۵۶۷۸۹۰=1234567890)

As I described in the translated Chapter 2, the Numberings are
incorrect. You can see the incorrect numberings plus the expected
correct numberings above each Fig, Table or Formula.

The main reason for numberings being incorrect is
Tools->Outline_Numbering not being flexible enough.
If Tools->Outline_Numbering in LO Writer was as flexible as Multilevel
List Numberings of MS Word (as you can see in
http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/word-2007-taming-multilevel-list-numbering/)
this problem could be fixed.

After seeing this document if you still has any question about the
reason of this incorrect numberings in LO Writer, don't hesitate to ask.
Likewise, if you have any idea or possible solution I'll be more than
glad to know.

Best,
Sina Momken

#13

It seems that the tables in original message below are not readable. So
I typed the message in LO Writer and attached here:

http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4067244/Outline_number_message_2.odt

You can read the post below more clearly using the .odt file I attached
above.

#14

Ok Tom,
It's the partially translated template, I was speaking about.
iust_translated_english_template_for_thesis_final_(nazanin)_writable.doc
<http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4067241/iust_translated_english_template_for_thesis_final_(nazanin)_writable.doc>

Because of lack of time I only translated Chapter 1 and Chpater 2. I also
translated the used paragraph styles and put '_' in front of those
translated paragraph styles. (e.g. _Chpater, _Fig_Caption, etc.).
Some digits are still in Farsi. (۱۲۳۴۵۶۷۸۹۰=1234567890)

As I described in the translated Chapter 2, the Numberings are incorrect.
You can see the incorrect numberings plus the expected correct numberings
above each Fig, Table or Formula.

The main reason for numberings being incorrect is Tools->Outline_Numbering
not being flexible enough.
If Tools->Outline_Numbering in LO Writer was as flexible as Multilevel List
Numberings of MS Word (as you can see in
http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/word-2007-taming-multilevel-list-numbering/)
this problem could be fixed.

After seeing this document if you still has any question about the reason of
this incorrect numberings in LO Writer, don't hesitate to ask. Likewise, if
you have any idea or possible solution I'll be more than glad to know.

Best,
Sina Momken

#15

Hi :slight_smile:
You translated plenty.  i just don't know how to do any of that!

I think Regina gave an excellent response.  At least i see a message from her in my inbox and she is usually excellent.  Did she solve it already?   
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#16

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, found Regina's answer and copied it directly to you.

I am not sure how you are still not properly subscribed to the mailing list but yet ARE able to post to Nabble!  Congrats on doing that btw and if you find out how you did it please let the rest of us know because it could be about the best way to view this mailing list!! :slight_smile:

Thanks, congrats (well, partial congrats) and regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#17

Using LibreOffice internal captions or "Number range" has some problems
that MUST be solved to be used:

1. Cross-Reference in the text body: Assume you has inserted a new
"Number range" named "Fig" either using "Caption" or inserting manually.
Regardless of the need to manually correct brackets and the whole
format, when you want to insert the Fig number in your text using
Cross-reference, there is NO way to insert the whole Fig number while
preserving its format. For example if you has entered the text "Fig
(2.1) something" under a picture, there is no way to automatically
insert "Fig (2.1)" in your text using Cross-reference.
When using Cross-reference, after selecting Fig as the type, you can
insert the whole paragraph (i.e. "Fig (2.1) something") by selecting
"Insert reference to = Reference" or you can even insert "Fig (2.1" by
selecting "Insert reference to = Category and Number" but you can never
insert the well-formatted text "Fig (2.1)".
The ability to cross-reference a caption is very very important, since I
can not insert Fig numbers manually because in that case I must update
all caption numbers in text whenever they've changed in the caption.

2. Insertion of a frame when Right-click->Caption: Using "caption" item
in context-menu is very easy, but unfortunately it places both the image
and it caption in a frame. Using frame can be good to maintain image and
its caption in a page, but I don't like it because unfortunately the
frame resizes the image! Actually some of the images I've inserted are
very big and I intentionally resized them to be wider than width of the
paragraph. Also having images wider than the paragraph maybe not
standard, but if I keep them smaller their details may become unreadable.
Is there any way to not insert a frame or not resize the image after
insertion of frame when we're using "context-menu->caption"?

There are also some LESS SEVERE problems in using "Number range" or
"caption":

A. Insertion of a well-formatted caption: Unfortunately there is no
short and easy way to insert a well-formatted caption in Writer. Anytime
I insert a caption I have to manually correct the brackets and other
things I need. I wished there was a way to do so automatically.

B. Using "Number range" is not as easy as using a predefined Numbering:
When you use a predefined Numbering you don't need to worry about
numbering format and correct it anytime.
Plus you can associate that predefined numbering to a paragraph style
and whenever you use that style for your caption, the proper numbers and
their constant text will appear as a special kind of numbering without
the need to manually insert them.
Using a Numbering like those in "Outline Numberings" also gives the
option to precisely determine Position of each numbering which is more
accurate than manually placing a "Number range" before our caption text.

So do you think these problems or at least the first serious problems
can be solved when using "Number Ranage" or "caption"?

Best,
Sina

#18

I first must admit that I didn't read this whole thread and I'm not sure what you actually need, but think you can insert text "Fig (2.1)" in a cross reference.

I hope I understood you well and I really wont to help you:

First you should insert your picture and set anchoring as Regina said. Then insert text "Fig." after that go Insert - Cross-reference, choose Variable tab and there (in format box) select Text, enter e.g "(2.1)" and then write rest of the caption text.

Now select only "Fig. (2.1)" or what ever you need and go to Cross-reference tab, choose Set reference, enter it's name in Name box, and choose Insert.

Place your cursor in desire position and then in Cross-reference tab choose insert reference, select reference, and in a white box left to the Name select Reference, hit Insert.

I hope that's what you wont to do. You still have to manually insert Variables and set cross-reference, but you sort the brackets problem.

Kruno

#19

And, you can always define a custom style for that "Fig (2.1)" variable text and then go Insert - Indexes and tables - Indexes and tables - Additional styles, choose three dots right to label and define that style to level you need...

Not sure does thins helps you, but hey... :slight_smile:

#20

Using LibreOffice internal captions or "Number range" has some problems
that MUST be solved to be used:

1. Cross-Reference in the text body: Assume you has inserted a new
"Number range" named "Fig" either using "Caption" or inserting manually.
Regardless of the need to manually correct brackets and the whole
format, when you want to insert the Fig number in your text using
Cross-reference, there is NO way to insert the whole Fig number while
preserving its format. For example if you has entered the text "Fig
(2.1) something" under a picture, there is no way to automatically
insert "Fig (2.1)" in your text using Cross-reference.
When using Cross-reference, after selecting Fig as the type, you can
insert the whole paragraph (i.e. "Fig (2.1) something") by selecting
"Insert reference to = Reference" or you can even insert "Fig (2.1" by
selecting "Insert reference to = Category and Number" but you can never
insert the well-formatted text "Fig (2.1)".
The ability to cross-reference a caption is very very important, since I
can not insert Fig numbers manually because in that case I must update
all caption numbers in text whenever they've changed in the caption.

2. Insertion of a frame when Right-click->Caption: Using "caption" item
in context-menu is very easy, but unfortunately it places both the image
and it caption in a frame. Using frame can be good to maintain image and
its caption in a page, but I don't like it because unfortunately the
frame resizes the image! Actually some of the images I've inserted are
very big and I intentionally resized them to be wider than width of the
paragraph. Also having images wider than the paragraph maybe not
standard, but if I keep them smaller their details may become unreadable.
Is there any way to not insert a frame or not resize the image after
insertion of frame when we're using "context-menu->caption"?

There are also some LESS SEVERE problems in using "Number range" or
"caption":

A. Insertion of a well-formatted caption: Unfortunately there is no
short and easy way to insert a well-formatted caption in Writer. Anytime
I insert a caption I have to manually correct the brackets and other
things I need. I wished there was a way to do so automatically.

B. Using "Number range" is not as easy as using a predefined Numbering:
When you use a predefined Numbering you don't need to worry about
numbering format and correct it anytime.
Plus you can associate that predefined numbering to a paragraph style
and whenever you use that style for your caption, the proper numbers and
their constant text will appear as a special kind of numbering without
the need to manually insert them.
Using a Numbering like those in "Outline Numberings" also gives the
option to precisely determine Position of each numbering which is more
accurate than manually placing a "Number range" before our caption text.

So do you think these problems or at least the first serious problems
can be solved when using "Number Ranage" or "caption"?

Best,
Sina