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Hello,
As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I advertised
it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be interested by
my initial analysis:
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
Thank you for your participation!
I'm glad you think it was such a great success. I personally feel you would have a much larger response had the questionnaire been better formulated. So many of the questions' multiple choice answers had no choice which reflected my situation/experience. After a while I decided not to continue with it and discarded it because it was obvious that it would not have reflected my situation/experience (which I presume was the goal). I suppose it is possible that for some questions there are only a few possible answers, but for most, the choice of "other" should be made available, or possibly even a blank line to fill in.
"Charles-H. Schulz":
The only way users can contribute is when they are paying. If a developer is paid for non-user-related applications, it will have the ubiquitous opensource mentality: "I'm a GOD and you insolent worm will crawl on all fours at my feet because it pleases me to do so". Obviously the commercial products which have incident support with developers and actually implement what users ask of them basing on what is asked and not on what is trivial to implement, will live LO in the gutter.
Hello,
As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I advertised
it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be interested by
my initial analysis:
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/Thank you for your participation!
--
If I may...
There are many ways for users to communicate: LibreOffice forum, Ask
LibreOffice, several LibreOffice mailing lists, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, and several irc channels. The problem is, IMHO, they are
sometimes "too many" and "too complicated". Let me explain with a
simple example.
In the release notes for LO 4.1.3, it said that the release was bit
by bit the same as "RC3". Well, that was incorrect, as it is the same
as 4.1.3.2, a.k.a. RC2 (there was no 4.1.3.3). What a casual reader
needs to do if he happens to catch the "typo"? Can he easily report
the one-character mistake? Does anyone think that this typo deserves
opening a new bug report in Bugzilla?
For each contact method mentioned above (each ML, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, forum,...), a user needs to go through an additional sign
up, sometimes requiring multiple steps. In our example (RC3 typo), do
you think a casual reader would go through a sign up process just to
report one wrong character?
Just as an example, I am subscribed to the users ML, and I found
annoying to go through additional sign-ups for Nabble. I can
understand that there might be relevant reasons for this; but it is
still annoying :). On the other hand, if a user is interested in
Writer only, having to receive emails regarding Draw (or anything
else than Writer) is one reason not to subscribe to the users ML. So
perhaps separated per-program lists should be available, instead of
one unified "users" ML? (I am not necessarily recommending it; just
mentioning such potential situation.)
Then we have several irc channels, but none of those channels
targeted to users are really active, ever (e.g. #libreoffice and/or
#libreoffice-qa). So what's the point of publishing the "existence"
of those irc channels if they are not really open with someone from
the LibreOffice Team being present in the channel? I'm not saying
answers should be "on real time". For irc to be relevant for users,
someone at least should maintain the channel open and saving logs,
checking it once a day or so. This is one contact method that could
be easily used to report the typo mentioned in our example.
One day is one typo, another day is another typo. Then there is some
minor low-priority bug in the installer (e.g adding a link to the
desktop even when the user unchecked the corresponding box during the
installation process). Then the wiki might need some little
correction or update... For each minor issue, a user could just think
"not worth going through all the sign up troubles for each different
service". As a consequence, none of those little corrections are
reported / performed.
What's the point of "Ask LibreOffice" if each question is seen, say,
3 times in a one week period? Most questions are unanswered.
Similarly with LibreOffice forum. A user might not bother to sign up
to such a method that is hardly ever used by relevant users; and if
it goes through it anyway and no answer is provided (as it is the
case with most "Ask LibreOffice" topics), it would probably generate
a rejection response towards LibreOffice.
If a user signs up and opens a bug report, that's because it is
significant for him. Is this procedure relevant if the bug report is
left unanswered for 2 years? Is this user going to keep reporting
additional bugs? Evidently, solving bugs requires man power, so
finding a simpler method to report "you have a st*pid typo" might
help reduce wasted time, for both developers and users.
So, making the contact methods more relevant, easier (unified?) sign
up procedures and actually maintaining "active" and relevant the
different contact channels would contribute to receive more feedback
and eventually reduce wasted time.
I am writing not to complain, but to voice my personal view of some
of the ways to improve user's involvement in LibreOffice. I admit I
am not sure if any of these changes would be the most effective use
of man-power, so I'm not going to call these "recommendations". These
might be potential considerations for potential improvements. Whether
they are _effective_ use of man-power, I don't really know.
Thank you and Best Regards,
Ady.
Hi Charles,
Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the objective behind it, I too, must admit that the survey was not worded in a way in which I felt comfortable responding. Indeed, it seemed to be distinctly biased towards getting the participants to answer in a given direction.
Additionally, I would question the statistical relevance of 600 responses, when the project is alleged to have tens/hundreds of thousands of users. If only 600 hundred people took the time to respond, what does this say about :
- penetration of the product;
- reach of the survey;
- design of the survey;
- length and time for which the survey ran ?
Alex
Hello Ady,
> Hello,
>
> As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I
> advertised it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be
> interested by my initial analysis:
> http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
>
> Thank you for your participation!
>
> --If I may...
There are many ways for users to communicate: LibreOffice forum, Ask
LibreOffice, several LibreOffice mailing lists, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, and several irc channels. The problem is, IMHO, they are
sometimes "too many" and "too complicated". Let me explain with a
simple example.In the release notes for LO 4.1.3, it said that the release was bit
by bit the same as "RC3". Well, that was incorrect, as it is the same
as 4.1.3.2, a.k.a. RC2 (there was no 4.1.3.3). What a casual reader
needs to do if he happens to catch the "typo"? Can he easily report
the one-character mistake? Does anyone think that this typo deserves
opening a new bug report in Bugzilla?For each contact method mentioned above (each ML, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, forum,...), a user needs to go through an additional sign
up, sometimes requiring multiple steps. In our example (RC3 typo), do
you think a casual reader would go through a sign up process just to
report one wrong character?Just as an example, I am subscribed to the users ML, and I found
annoying to go through additional sign-ups for Nabble. I can
understand that there might be relevant reasons for this; but it is
still annoying :). On the other hand, if a user is interested in
Writer only, having to receive emails regarding Draw (or anything
else than Writer) is one reason not to subscribe to the users ML. So
perhaps separated per-program lists should be available, instead of
one unified "users" ML? (I am not necessarily recommending it; just
mentioning such potential situation.)Then we have several irc channels, but none of those channels
targeted to users are really active, ever (e.g. #libreoffice and/or
#libreoffice-qa). So what's the point of publishing the "existence"
of those irc channels if they are not really open with someone from
the LibreOffice Team being present in the channel? I'm not saying
answers should be "on real time". For irc to be relevant for users,
someone at least should maintain the channel open and saving logs,
checking it once a day or so. This is one contact method that could
be easily used to report the typo mentioned in our example.One day is one typo, another day is another typo. Then there is some
minor low-priority bug in the installer (e.g adding a link to the
desktop even when the user unchecked the corresponding box during the
installation process). Then the wiki might need some little
correction or update... For each minor issue, a user could just think
"not worth going through all the sign up troubles for each different
service". As a consequence, none of those little corrections are
reported / performed.What's the point of "Ask LibreOffice" if each question is seen, say,
3 times in a one week period? Most questions are unanswered.
Similarly with LibreOffice forum. A user might not bother to sign up
to such a method that is hardly ever used by relevant users; and if
it goes through it anyway and no answer is provided (as it is the
case with most "Ask LibreOffice" topics), it would probably generate
a rejection response towards LibreOffice.If a user signs up and opens a bug report, that's because it is
significant for him. Is this procedure relevant if the bug report is
left unanswered for 2 years? Is this user going to keep reporting
additional bugs? Evidently, solving bugs requires man power, so
finding a simpler method to report "you have a st*pid typo" might
help reduce wasted time, for both developers and users.So, making the contact methods more relevant, easier (unified?) sign
up procedures and actually maintaining "active" and relevant the
different contact channels would contribute to receive more feedback
and eventually reduce wasted time.I am writing not to complain, but to voice my personal view of some
of the ways to improve user's involvement in LibreOffice. I admit I
am not sure if any of these changes would be the most effective use
of man-power, so I'm not going to call these "recommendations". These
might be potential considerations for potential improvements. Whether
they are _effective_ use of man-power, I don't really know.Thank you and Best Regards,
Ady.
Thank you a lot for your input. The survey does not cover the problem
you described specifically. But it definitely makes sense, and I think
we should keep your points in mind, although there is no easy solution
given that part of the reason there is no single sign on is security.
Thanks a lot, it's really useful.
Best,
Hello Alex,
Hi Charles,
Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the
objective behind it, I too, must admit that the survey was not worded
in a way in which I felt comfortable responding. Indeed, it seemed to
be distinctly biased towards getting the participants to answer in a
given direction.
Next time I'm sure you can join us in the weeks during which we
discussed the survey on the marketing and project's list 
Additionally, I would question the statistical relevance of 600
responses, when the project is alleged to have tens/hundreds of
thousands of users. If only 600 hundred people took the time to
respond, what does this say about :- penetration of the product;
I honestly would not think there's relevant data for this in the
survey and from the respondents.
- reach of the survey;
Good question with no easy answer. The survey was localized in 5
languages aside English. The link was posted here and on the several
other users mailing lists. The word was spread on the Facebook
LibreOffice page and Google+ and to a lesser extent on Twitter.
Once I've said this I guess I didn't say much. Here are two additional
facts:
- the survey was not translated (and not propagated) to three countries
where we know we have an active community and anywhere between a non
trivial number of users up to a large number of them: Russia, Japan,
Brazil. Judging by the survey results, it would seem that their
impact has been minimal or virtually non-existent. So the survey
reached out to some categories of users, but not all of them. I'd be
however confident in stating that the users that responded are
representative of the LibreOffice users in general.
- the survey could have had a bigger and much deeper outreach if it
had been pushed directly to the users, say at the installation phase
or even through a mechanism allowing users to respond to it via the
StartCenter. That was obviously not the case, so in the end we
reached out the users who are on the project's mailing list and
connected to us through our social networks. This leaves out plenty
of users irrespective of their language.
- design of the survey;
What would you like to know? The survey was designed in order to be
progressive in its questioning as should be all the surveys. Beyond
that, don't look too much into survey methodologies, I'm not sure they
are that sophisticated, unless of course you would like to get a
particular answer in advance, and that's precisely what we wanted to
avoid.
- length and time for which the survey ran ?
The survey started on the 31st of October and expired yesterday.
Best,
Charles.
Hi Urmas,
So - I don't really understand your mail, which is a shame.
The only way users can contribute is when they are paying.
Surely you're a user - and you contribute with bug filing, triage, and
other QA things which are much appreciated.
If a developer is paid for non-user-related applications, it will
have the ubiquitous opensource mentality: "I'm a GOD and you insolent
worm will crawl on all fours at my feet because it pleases me to do so".
As a developer, this is a mentality I often see from users in bugs 
the entitlement mentality - where users feel entitled to have exactly
the fix they think is most important to them, prioritized immediately
above all others, for free =) so it is not just developers that can have
attitude problems I think.
Obviously the commercial products which have incident support with
developers and actually implement what users ask of them basing on
what is asked and not on what is trivial to implement, will live LO
in the gutter.
I don't really understand that one - but it is a true-ism that if you
pay someone a salary you get to choose what they work on if you
don't you can try a spoonful of honey or (perhaps your tactic) a gallon
of gall to encourage them to work on something but not much more.
Luckily, since this is Free Software there is no significant barrier
(beyond ignorance - which is fixable with time and patience) to
contributing your own fix to the code if you want.
All the best,
Michael.
Hi Urmas,
So - I don't really understand your mail, which is a shame.
The only way users can contribute is when they are paying.
Surely you're a user - and you contribute with bug filing, triage, and
other QA things which are much appreciated.If a developer is paid for non-user-related applications, it will
have the ubiquitous opensource mentality: "I'm a GOD and you insolent
worm will crawl on all fours at my feet because it pleases me to do so".As a developer, this is a mentality I often see from users in bugs
the entitlement mentality - where users feel entitled to have exactly
the fix they think is most important to them, prioritized immediately
above all others, for free =) so it is not just developers that can have
attitude problems I think.
After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have the knowledge to fix them. I didn't expect those problems to go to the head of the line. But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and eventually fixed.
What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important. BS! It's important to me.
Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't start. You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells you "it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve". Are you going to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a different mechanic?
Regardless of product, if the vendor/supplier/developer tells you that your issue is not important, will you use that product in the future?
I used to recommend and install LO on computers, but no longer, since it's obvious my input and issues is not important. I have a list of other issues I've found in LO, but I won't be making any effort to file bugs. You will never have another chance to tell me my issues with things that do not work is unimportant.
I have to be able to look others in the eye and tell them problems get fixed. I'm looking for alternatives now, and have found one that may do the job I need to get done. When I find the right package, I won't need LO.
Obviously the commercial products which have incident support with
developers and actually implement what users ask of them basing on
what is asked and not on what is trivial to implement, will live LO
in the gutter.I don't really understand that one - but it is a true-ism that if you
pay someone a salary you get to choose what they work on
don't you can try a spoonful of honey or (perhaps your tactic) a gallon
of gall to encourage them to work on something but not much more.
I think it boils down to at least two things:
1. Do you want your product to be successful, free or not? Do you want additional
users, or just happy with what you have?
2. How much pride do you have in your work? Do you want your work to be
the best it can be? Or are you happy with it just being "good enough"?
RE: #1... If TDF wants to be a serious alternative to other office suites out there, primarily MSO, TDF needs to operate at the same level of product development, customer support, and provide a better product than the one you wish to replace. Free or not.
RE: #2... One of the mores of society today is to do just good enough to get by. That's fine if you are doing something for yourself. But just being "good enough" will not get you a sterling reputation, it will get you an OK reputation. You have to ask yourself, what do you want your reputation to be?
Luckily, since this is Free Software there is no significant barrier
(beyond ignorance - which is fixable with time and patience) to
contributing your own fix to the code if you want.
Doing the best you can is where Free Software could really excel. You have no boss telling you "That's good enough" or "We aren't going to fix that".
Of the free packages I've tried, many seem to be of the "good enough" attitude. And I often wonder if some of that attitude is because they aren't trying to make a living with it.
Overall, a +2, Ady.
Comments interspersed below.
Hello,
As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I advertised
it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be interested by
my initial analysis:
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/Thank you for your participation!
--
If I may...
There are many ways for users to communicate: LibreOffice forum, Ask
LibreOffice, several LibreOffice mailing lists, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, and several irc channels. The problem is, IMHO, they are
sometimes "too many" and "too complicated". Let me explain with a
simple example.
And I would add, unknown to many users, including myself. I don't have the time to deal with the few newsgroups I try to follow now, much less spending a lot of time on LO's website, and then learning how to use the different venues.
I will give LO kudos for apparently having the content of Nabble and the mailing list being identical. At least I believe it's identical. But LO falls a little bit short in not being able to attach documents, screenshots, etc. via the mailing list when you use gmane.org. If that's a gmane issue, then that's the way it is, especially if you've requested that ability.
I prefer a newsgroup reader to any of the varied forum formats, which is why I use gmane. To me, Nabble is a forum. But it is better than most because there is a threaded view. Even at that, it's not as efficient and quick as using a newsgroup reader. The display takes too much space for the information displayed, and of course, much slower from what I've experienced.
In the release notes for LO 4.1.3, it said that the release was bit
by bit the same as "RC3". Well, that was incorrect, as it is the same
as 4.1.3.2, a.k.a. RC2 (there was no 4.1.3.3). What a casual reader
needs to do if he happens to catch the "typo"? Can he easily report
the one-character mistake? Does anyone think that this typo deserves
opening a new bug report in Bugzilla?
I've not found Bugzilla to be user friendly for the average user. Period. If it's not user friendly for the average user, that user is going to walk away with a negative impression.
For each contact method mentioned above (each ML, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, forum,...), a user needs to go through an additional sign
up, sometimes requiring multiple steps. In our example (RC3 typo), do
you think a casual reader would go through a sign up process just to
report one wrong character?Just as an example, I am subscribed to the users ML, and I found
annoying to go through additional sign-ups for Nabble. I can
understand that there might be relevant reasons for this; but it is
still annoying :). On the other hand, if a user is interested in
Writer only, having to receive emails regarding Draw (or anything
else than Writer) is one reason not to subscribe to the users ML. So
perhaps separated per-program lists should be available, instead of
one unified "users" ML? (I am not necessarily recommending it; just
mentioning such potential situation.)
Add my support to that suggestion. I get tired of having to deal with Base issues, since I don't use Base.
Then we have several irc channels, but none of those channels
targeted to users are really active, ever (e.g. #libreoffice and/or
#libreoffice-qa). So what's the point of publishing the "existence"
of those irc channels if they are not really open with someone from
the LibreOffice Team being present in the channel? I'm not saying
answers should be "on real time". For irc to be relevant for users,
someone at least should maintain the channel open and saving logs,
checking it once a day or so. This is one contact method that could
be easily used to report the typo mentioned in our example.One day is one typo, another day is another typo. Then there is some
minor low-priority bug in the installer (e.g adding a link to the
desktop even when the user unchecked the corresponding box during the
installation process). Then the wiki might need some little
correction or update... For each minor issue, a user could just think
"not worth going through all the sign up troubles for each different
service". As a consequence, none of those little corrections are
reported / performed.What's the point of "Ask LibreOffice" if each question is seen, say,
3 times in a one week period? Most questions are unanswered.
Similarly with LibreOffice forum. A user might not bother to sign up
to such a method that is hardly ever used by relevant users; and if
it goes through it anyway and no answer is provided (as it is the
case with most "Ask LibreOffice" topics), it would probably generate
a rejection response towards LibreOffice.
Regarding the previous 3 paragraphs:
irc channels, most people have never heard of them. The same for ICQ. So they don't know how to use them. I use Skype and Yahoo Messenger. And I started using them because I was given the information those systems existed. No software package has ever told me "You can get help using the irc channels, and this is how you use them."
Same for wikis and "Ask LIbreOffice". I didn't know "Ask LibreOffice" even existed until your message. I, and the people I know, don't live on LO, their smartphones, tablets, living their lives there. The computer is a tool, not a virtual reality to live in.
I think every download package should include some kind of messaging of how and where to get help via some kind of splash screen (or something similar) letting new users know of these help options, and how to get to them.
If a user signs up and opens a bug report, that's because it is
significant for him. Is this procedure relevant if the bug report is
left unanswered for 2 years? Is this user going to keep reporting
additional bugs? Evidently, solving bugs requires man power, so
finding a simpler method to report "you have a st*pid typo" might
help reduce wasted time, for both developers and users.So, making the contact methods more relevant, easier (unified?) sign
up procedures and actually maintaining "active" and relevant the
different contact channels would contribute to receive more feedback
and eventually reduce wasted time.
I would add, if there are more than one channel that supports users, like this mailing list, the contents should be spread across all the channels. Then it doesn't matter which method of support is desired by the user, the user has access to all possible support answers from individuals, and the same question is less likely to be asked multiple places.
What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important. BS!
It's important to me.
If it's important to you, you can fund a developer to work on it for
you, or work on it yourself. If not, then unfortunately the developer is
doing this for his own reasons, and gets to choose what he wants to
work on. Obviously it makes sense for developers to listen to the users
and work on what the majority of users think is important, but a) they
are not actually obligated to do so, and b) don't assume your issues are
everybody's issues.
Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it
won't start. You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he
tells you "it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".
Are you going to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you
going to find a different mechanic?
What if the mechanic has too much work just dealing with peoples cars
that won't start at all? Should he drop all that and deal with your
issue? Why?
This depends on the severity of the issues you are bringing up, and as
I don't know the issues you have raised, I cannot speak to that, I'm
just pointing out that so far you are not making a strong case for why
your issues were important, only that you don't like being told your
issues are not pressing. Nobody likes that, but sometimes it's true.
Regardless of product, if the vendor/supplier/developer tells you
that your issue is not important, will you use that product in the
future?
I would just like to point out here that people love to complain about
open source not solving their pet issues promptly, but few of them have
actually tried to get issues solved in commercial products. I have. And
just because I paid for the software is absolutely *no* guarantee that
my issue will be attended to. Commercial software is just as likely to
tell you your issues are not important. It depends on the product, for
sure, but this is not always about open source vs. commercial, or even
necessarily about any particular product. More often than not it is
users thinking that because it is open source, and they actually have
access to the developers to post bugs to, that this means their bugs
automatically must get attended to, and if the developers respond with
"Sorry, we're too busy working on things lots of users want. Your
issues just aren't important right now" then they are being personally
insulted. They assume that for all commercial software any issue they
post will immediately get seen to, and because open source doesn't work
that way, it is not good enough. Unfortunately this just isn't true of
commercial software.
Not saying you are saying this, I just wanted to point this out because
I see it a lot, and your email didn't actually say that this wasn't the
case for you.
Paul
Hi, Charles,
Hello Alex,
Hi Charles,
Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the
objective behind it, I too, must admit that the survey was not worded
in a way in which I felt comfortable responding. Indeed, it seemed to
be distinctly biased towards getting the participants to answer in a
given direction.Next time I'm sure you can join us in the weeks during which we
discussed the survey on the marketing and project's list
I hope you are making a list of the concerns voiced in this thread, and the other thread about the survey. That will give you additional points to look at for the next survey.
Additionally, I would question the statistical relevance of 600
responses, when the project is alleged to have tens/hundreds of
thousands of users. If only 600 hundred people took the time to
respond, what does this say about :- penetration of the product;
I honestly would not think there's relevant data for this in the
survey and from the respondents.- reach of the survey;
Good question with no easy answer. The survey was localized in 5
languages aside English. The link was posted here and on the several
other users mailing lists. The word was spread on the Facebook
LibreOffice page and Google+ and to a lesser extent on Twitter.Once I've said this I guess I didn't say much. Here are two additional
facts:
- the survey was not translated (and not propagated) to three countries
where we know we have an active community and anywhere between a non
trivial number of users up to a large number of them: Russia, Japan,
Brazil. Judging by the survey results, it would seem that their
impact has been minimal or virtually non-existent. So the survey
reached out to some categories of users, but not all of them. I'd be
however confident in stating that the users that responded are
representative of the LibreOffice users in general.
Let's work with Alex's comment there were 600 responses to the survey. You often read how LO has thousands and thousands of users. Just to make it simple, let's say there's 100,000 users. That's probably miniscule to MSO and possibly even WordPerfect.
That means, at best you got the opinions of .6% of the users. Personally, I would never consider that to be representative of the user base, especially when you noted in the next paragraph of the limitation of the survey's distribution. I would seriously consider junking this survey's results, using it as a learning experience, and doing a better survey.
Really, all you have is the opinions of the users of the mailing list, not users in general.
- the survey could have had a bigger and much deeper outreach if it
had been pushed directly to the users, say at the installation phase
or even through a mechanism allowing users to respond to it via the
StartCenter. That was obviously not the case, so in the end we
reached out the users who are on the project's mailing list and
connected to us through our social networks. This leaves out plenty
of users irrespective of their language.- design of the survey;
What would you like to know? The survey was designed in order to be
progressive in its questioning as should be all the surveys. Beyond
that, don't look too much into survey methodologies, I'm not sure they
are that sophisticated, unless of course you would like to get a
particular answer in advance, and that's precisely what we wanted to
avoid.
As I and someone else pointed out, you limited the range of the responses. When you do that, you automatically color/bias the results of any survey. Easy to correlate the data received, but no guarantee of accuracy. Which is why, so often, election results don't match the polls and surveys.
Hello Ken,
Ken Springer <snowshed1@q.com> a écrit :
Hi, Charles,
Hello Alex,
Hi Charles,
Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the
objective behind it, I too, must admit that the survey was notworded
in a way in which I felt comfortable responding. Indeed, it seemed
to
be distinctly biased towards getting the participants to answer in a
given direction.Next time I'm sure you can join us in the weeks during which we
discussed the survey on the marketing and project's listI hope you are making a list of the concerns voiced in this thread, and
the other thread about the survey. That will give you additional
points
to look at for the next survey.
Ken, I am not only making a list, I am reading this thread and the other one about LibreOffice vs. MSO with great attention. Lots of stuff to digest but lots of things to say from my side as well.
Additionally, I would question the statistical relevance of 600
responses, when the project is alleged to have tens/hundreds of
thousands of users. If only 600 hundred people took the time to
respond, what does this say about :- penetration of the product;
I honestly would not think there's relevant data for this in the
survey and from the respondents.- reach of the survey;
Good question with no easy answer. The survey was localized in 5
languages aside English. The link was posted here and on the several
other users mailing lists. The word was spread on the Facebook
LibreOffice page and Google+ and to a lesser extent on Twitter.Once I've said this I guess I didn't say much. Here are two
additional
facts:
- the survey was not translated (and not propagated) to threecountries
where we know we have an active community and anywhere between a
non
trivial number of users up to a large number of them: Russia,
Japan,
Brazil. Judging by the survey results, it would seem that their
impact has been minimal or virtually non-existent. So the survey
reached out to some categories of users, but not all of them. I'dbe
however confident in stating that the users that responded are
representative of the LibreOffice users in general.Let's work with Alex's comment there were 600 responses to the survey.
You often read how LO has thousands and thousands of users. Just to
make it simple, let's say there's 100,000 users. That's probably
miniscule to MSO and possibly even WordPerfect.That means, at best you got the opinions of .6% of the users.
Personally, I would never consider that to be representative of the
user
base, especially when you noted in the next paragraph of the limitationof the survey's distribution. I would seriously consider junking this
survey's results, using it as a learning experience, and doing a bettersurvey.
Really, all you have is the opinions of the users of the mailing list,
not users in general.
You are right on your last statement however I still maintain that this fraction of users which is by the way even smaller than 0.6% is representative of the users in that the respondents have concerned that are similar to everyone else.
One other point on the survey is that it did not pop out from my head. It was designed over the course of over a week by a team of contributors. And this team was open to anyone (hence my remark to Alex).
- the survey could have had a bigger and much deeper outreach if it
had been pushed directly to the users, say at the installationphase
or even through a mechanism allowing users to respond to it via
the
StartCenter. That was obviously not the case, so in the end we
reached out the users who are on the project's mailing list and
connected to us through our social networks. This leaves outplenty
of users irrespective of their language.
- design of the survey;
What would you like to know? The survey was designed in order to be
progressive in its questioning as should be all the surveys. Beyond
that, don't look too much into survey methodologies, I'm not surethey
are that sophisticated, unless of course you would like to get a
particular answer in advance, and that's precisely what we wanted to
avoid.As I and someone else pointed out, you limited the range of the
responses. When you do that, you automatically color/bias the results
of any survey. Easy to correlate the data received, but no guarantee
of
accuracy. Which is why, so often, election results don't match the
polls and surveys.
Good point here too. I guess I will answer on the other thread but please always keep in mind that most of us are volunteers and that this is a FOSS project. It means among other things that we do not work like a company nor sell a product but also that we tend to be short handed when it comes to resources at least compared to Microsoft
Best,
Charles.
Paul, everyone,
What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important. BS!
It's important to me.If it's important to you, you can fund a developer to work on it for
you, or work on it yourself. If not, then unfortunately the developer is
doing this for his own reasons, and gets to choose what he wants to
work on. Obviously it makes sense for developers to listen to the users
and work on what the majority of users think is important, but a) they
are not actually obligated to do so, and b) don't assume your issues are
everybody's issues.
Very true. Also, it might be useful to remember that developers tend to contribute because they only want to and find a particular interest in doing so. Maybe it's for a plain old business interest, but when you're a volunteer developer, which is the case of the largest majority of developers on LibreOffice, you contribute because it's fun or you just want to help with specific things that bug you (not necessarily the others).
Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it
won't start. You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he
tells you "it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".
Are you going to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you
going to find a different mechanic?What if the mechanic has too much work just dealing with peoples cars
that won't start at all? Should he drop all that and deal with your
issue? Why?This depends on the severity of the issues you are bringing up, and as
I don't know the issues you have raised, I cannot speak to that, I'm
just pointing out that so far you are not making a strong case for why
your issues were important, only that you don't like being told your
issues are not pressing. Nobody likes that, but sometimes it's true.Regardless of product, if the vendor/supplier/developer tells you
that your issue is not important, will you use that product in the
future?I would just like to point out here that people love to complain about
open source not solving their pet issues promptly, but few of them have
actually tried to get issues solved in commercial products. I have. And
just because I paid for the software is absolutely *no* guarantee that
my issue will be attended to. Commercial software is just as likely to
tell you your issues are not important. It depends on the product, for
sure, but this is not always about open source vs. commercial, or even
necessarily about any particular product. More often than not it is
users thinking that because it is open source, and they actually have
access to the developers to post bugs to, that this means their bugs
automatically must get attended to, and if the developers respond with
"Sorry, we're too busy working on things lots of users want. Your
issues just aren't important right now" then they are being personally
insulted. They assume that for all commercial software any issue they
post will immediately get seen to, and because open source doesn't work
that way, it is not good enough. Unfortunately this just isn't true of
commercial software.Not saying you are saying this, I just wanted to point this out because
I see it a lot, and your email didn't actually say that this wasn't the
case for you.
True again. However, there's a way out of this. It may not be an easy way, but there's a way: contributing to LibreOffice. I realize that many people are complaining that contributing is difficult or even that they submitted several bug reports and nothing came out of that. I'm not arguing against that, but let's face it: contributors to a Free and Open Source Software project end up being in charge. Users aren't. The good thing about being a user of Free and Open Source Software is that fundamental freedoms and rights are being passed on to each user. But unless you go and fix it yourself, or pay someone to do it, or gather a team of people including developers who can tackle the issue, you're essentially left hoping your issue will catch the eye of someone. In a proprietary software environment, you do not, in fact, get listened to because you're paying. That's just not the way it works. But the perception plays against Free and Open Source Software here.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in and by itself LibreOffice is not a product. It's not even marketed as a product, but rather as a community. In this regard our marketing may fly against the definition of traditional marketing. I'll add one more shameless plug here: http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2012/10/21/marketing-workshop-2012/ but that will give you a good summary of how it works and why we would lose anyway if we were to work like MSFT.
Hope this helps,
Charles.
What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important. BS!
It's important to me.If it's important to you, you can fund a developer to work on it for
you, or work on it yourself. If not, then unfortunately the developer is
doing this for his own reasons, and gets to choose what he wants to
work on. Obviously it makes sense for developers to listen to the users
and work on what the majority of users think is important, but a) they
are not actually obligated to do so, and b) don't assume your issues are
everybody's issues.
True, but it also goes back to the question of "What do you want LO to be?" You'll read where people want LO to be a "viable alternative to MSO". From the dictionary program that comes with OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion...
viable |ˈvīəbəl|
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible:
"capable of working successfully"... Does that not mean things work, and work correctly? I'm not speaking of more complicated and sophisticated features, such as master documents with 500 pages. For that, IMO you should use a DTP program, that's what they are for.
But, basic things should work right. In my list I have here, but have not tested in 4.x.x, PNG graphics did not print correctly, label printing was messed up, graphics resizing didn't seem to make logical sense (related to but not the same as the aspect ratio question I posted about in another thread). Sometimes, just simple useability issues, boiling down to having to redo things over and over when you reorganized/reformatted. I've got a note here about the "mailto: subject line" that I honestly don't remember what that note is about.
One note about table borders not behaving properly. After you start out with a table of X by Y cells, and you then added, deleted, merged, split cells, borders no longer were aligned. You could end up, as I did, with a border that looked something like this"
_____________|----------|=========|_____________| <------ The "="
signs should be sitting on the baseline for a better idea, but I hope you get the idea. In the equals example, border thickness was not the same, even though the dialog reported the thickness was the same. I never had Word give me that border result in a table.
15 years ago, those would be cutting edge features. Today, they are standard features that should work.
True, it's open source, developers can do what they want. But, if that is the desired perspective, then drop the word viable and any hint you are "equal". Simply say LO is an option that "may" work for you.
Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it
won't start. You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he
tells you "it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".
Are you going to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you
going to find a different mechanic?What if the mechanic has too much work just dealing with peoples cars
that won't start at all? Should he drop all that and deal with your
issue? Why?
No, but the quality mechanic says "I'm booked up for a month, if you can wait that long." Then he'll fix it, he won't ignore you. That gives you the option of waiting or finding a new mechanic. In LO's case, you wait for the bug(s) to be squashed, or you go elsewhere.
I really do like the idea of open source software, but things have to work. I have things I want/need to do with the computer, as do others. As I said, I only expected to be put in the queue, like the quality mechanic, and have the bugs fixed. But going on two years? I don't think so. I'm only still here because I've not found a complete replacement. And LO has lost a supporter, as you can tell.
This depends on the severity of the issues you are bringing up, and as
I don't know the issues you have raised, I cannot speak to that, I'm
just pointing out that so far you are not making a strong case for why
your issues were important, only that you don't like being told your
issues are not pressing. Nobody likes that, but sometimes it's true.
I think the hard question to answer from the developer side is, what are the ramifications of taking that view? How many possible users have you lost/do you possibly lose because the issue the developers think is minimal results in that user telling others to not use/consider LO?
If they aren't asking that question, they should be.
Regardless of product, if the vendor/supplier/developer tells you
that your issue is not important, will you use that product in the
future?I would just like to point out here that people love to complain about
open source not solving their pet issues promptly, but few of them have
actually tried to get issues solved in commercial products. I have. And
just because I paid for the software is absolutely *no* guarantee that
my issue will be attended to. Commercial software is just as likely to
tell you your issues are not important. It depends on the product, for
sure, but this is not always about open source vs. commercial, or even
necessarily about any particular product. More often than not it is
users thinking that because it is open source, and they actually have
access to the developers to post bugs to, that this means their bugs
automatically must get attended to, and if the developers respond with
"Sorry, we're too busy working on things lots of users want. Your
issues just aren't important right now" then they are being personally
insulted. They assume that for all commercial software any issue they
post will immediately get seen to, and because open source doesn't work
that way, it is not good enough. Unfortunately this just isn't true of
commercial software.
I've actually had better results, in the commercial software realm, with smaller vendors. They seem to be more interested in problems you find and seem to be more willing to fix them. To some extent, the same with small freeware/open source products.
But with the issues above, most of those were never an issue with Word. A couple I didn't have a need for in Word, such as printing PNG graphics. The PNG format may not have even been available.
Not saying you are saying this, I just wanted to point this out because
I see it a lot, and your email didn't actually say that this wasn't the
case for you.
If we're on the same page here, I did say I didn't expect to be at the front of the problems list somewhere.
Contributing by reporting issues is all I can do for any software, but eventually you hope to see things you find fixed. You find theses problems because they are features of a software package that you use. After some period of time, when things don't get fixed, you begin to think, "Why bother?" It's not just LO, I use another open source program where a lot of users have expressed the same opinions about that program. I'm on the lookout for another program there, too.
RE: my comment about smaller vendors, I've a commercial file management program, that I discovered had a problem. Their primary official support is a volunteer, possibly a few I honestly don't remember. After a few emails, and testing as requested, the volunteer forwarded the issue as a bug/problem. Then I got an email from one of the developers, saying he could not replicate the program. After more emails requesting I do this and that to see if the problem existed, the developer was stumped. I finally figured out what triggered the problem, reported it, and the conversation ended.
Now... Is it fixed? I don't know, but I suspect it is, it was just a dialogue box not showing up where it should. There has been a program update, but the primary purpose of the update was to ensure the program is OS X 10.9 Mavericks compatible. I've no plans to go to Mavericks, I've not seen anything in the newest OS X than entices me, but I have seen a lot that I don't want. Since I'm not going to Mavericks, no reason to update the file management software. That being said, there is one feature request I would like to see added, and it's the 2nd most requested feature on their site. The minute that feature is added, I'm upgrading! LOL
Hi, Charles,
Hello Ken,
Ken Springer <snowshed1@q.com> a écrit :
Hi, Charles,
Hello Alex,
Hi Charles,
Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the
objective behind it, I too, must admit that the survey was notworded
in a way in which I felt comfortable responding. Indeed, it seemed
to
be distinctly biased towards getting the participants to answer in a
given direction.Next time I'm sure you can join us in the weeks during which we
discussed the survey on the marketing and project's listI hope you are making a list of the concerns voiced in this thread, and
the other thread about the survey. That will give you additional
points
to look at for the next survey.Ken, I am not only making a list, I am reading this thread and the other one about LibreOffice vs. MSO with great attention. Lots of stuff to digest but lots of things to say from my side as well.
Kudos, Charles. >
Additionally, I would question the statistical relevance of 600
responses, when the project is alleged to have tens/hundreds of
thousands of users. If only 600 hundred people took the time to
respond, what does this say about :- penetration of the product;
I honestly would not think there's relevant data for this in the
survey and from the respondents.- reach of the survey;
Good question with no easy answer. The survey was localized in 5
languages aside English. The link was posted here and on the several
other users mailing lists. The word was spread on the Facebook
LibreOffice page and Google+ and to a lesser extent on Twitter.Once I've said this I guess I didn't say much. Here are two
additional
facts:
- the survey was not translated (and not propagated) to threecountries
where we know we have an active community and anywhere between a
non
trivial number of users up to a large number of them: Russia,
Japan,
Brazil. Judging by the survey results, it would seem that their
impact has been minimal or virtually non-existent. So the survey
reached out to some categories of users, but not all of them. I'dbe
however confident in stating that the users that responded are
representative of the LibreOffice users in general.Let's work with Alex's comment there were 600 responses to the survey.
You often read how LO has thousands and thousands of users. Just to
make it simple, let's say there's 100,000 users. That's probably
miniscule to MSO and possibly even WordPerfect.That means, at best you got the opinions of .6% of the users.
Personally, I would never consider that to be representative of the
user
base, especially when you noted in the next paragraph of the limitationof the survey's distribution. I would seriously consider junking this
survey's results, using it as a learning experience, and doing a bettersurvey.
Really, all you have is the opinions of the users of the mailing list,
not users in general.You are right on your last statement however I still maintain that this fraction of users which is by the way even smaller than 0.6% is representative of the users in that the respondents have concerned that are similar to everyone else.
The only way to test that would be to redo the survey, and find a way to get it to all users.
One other point on the survey is that it did not pop out from my head. It was designed over the course of over a week by a team of contributors. And this team was open to anyone (hence my remark to Alex).
I didn't think it did. But those situations often leave you in the position of "being to close to the trees to see the forest."
For what it's worth... I'm just a casual user of LO. It was installed on
my new computer when I bought it a year and a half ago. I got on this list
because the spell checker wouldn't work. I've remained here because a) I
sometimes learn stuff and b) I like it when you guys disagree with one an
other (or someone) and have arguments. It's a little bit of diversion for
an old man. And I enjoy Anne Ology's occasional remarks too
Anyway, I started taking the survey but couldn't finish it because as others
have said it seemed to be somehow steering me. It didn't have the check
boxes I wanted!!!
"Charles-H. Schulz":
Also, it might be useful to remember that developers tend to
contribute because they only want to and find a particular interest in
doing so. Maybe it's for a plain old business interest, but when you're
a volunteer developer, which is the case of the largest majority of
developers on LibreOffice, you contribute because it's fun or you just
want to help with specific things that bug you (not necessarily the
others).
Then why does the LO site not feature a warning on a front page: "User, you are *freeloading shit*. You are of *no consequence*. Your opinion does not matter."? In the present state it is a clear, intent disinformation of the customer about the nature of the product.
One cannot build straw airplanes for 25 years instead of listening to feedback, copycat random features then come and say: "We are a viable alternative!"
Ken Springer <snowshed1@q.com> wrote:.
There are many ways for users to communicate: LibreOffice forum, Ask
LibreOffice, several LibreOffice mailing lists, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, and several irc channels. The problem is, IMHO, they are
sometimes "too many" and "too complicated". Let me explain with a
simple example.And I would add, unknown to many users, including myself. I don't have
the time to deal with the few newsgroups I try to follow now, much less
spending a lot of time on LO's website, and then learning how to use
the different venues.I will give LO kudos for apparently having the content of Nabble and
the mailing list being identical. At least I believe it's identical. But
LO falls a little bit short in not being able to attach documents,
screenshots, etc. via the mailing list when you use gmane.org. If
that's a gmane issue, then that's the way it is, especially if you've
requested that ability.
I have found that mailing lists frequently strip all attachments. It is recommended instead to post the file on the web instead and incorporate a link to it in your eMail.
I prefer a newsgroup reader to any of the varied forum formats, which
is why I use gmane. To me, Nabble is a forum. But it is better than most because there is a threaded view. Even at that, it's not as efficient
and quick as using a newsgroup reader. The display takes too much
space for the information displayed, and of course, much slower from what
I've experienced.
Pardon my ignorance. I don't even know what Nabble or gmane are. If they are "social media" then this old geezer doesn't participate and that's by choice. Mailing lists, product specific forums, and even (to a limited extent) IRC channels are fine.
In the release notes for LO 4.1.3, it said that the release was bit
by bit the same as "RC3". Well, that was incorrect, as it is the same
as 4.1.3.2, a.k.a. RC2 (there was no 4.1.3.3). What a casual reader
needs to do if he happens to catch the "typo"? Can he easily report
the one-character mistake? Does anyone think that this typo deserves
opening a new bug report in Bugzilla?
I shudder at the thought.
I've not found Bugzilla to be user friendly for the average user.
Period. If it's not user friendly for the average user, that user is
going to walk away with a negative impression.
Hear, hear!
For each contact method mentioned above (each ML, Nabble, wiki,
Bugzilla, forum,...), a user needs to go through an additional sign
up, sometimes requiring multiple steps. In our example (RC3 typo), do
you think a casual reader would go through a sign up process just to
report one wrong character?
I hope that one can access these communication channels "read only" without a password(?).
Just as an example, I am subscribed to the users ML, and I found
annoying to go through additional sign-ups for Nabble. I can
understand that there might be relevant reasons for this; but it is
still annoying :). On the other hand, if a user is interested in
Writer only, having to receive emails regarding Draw (or anything
else than Writer) is one reason not to subscribe to the users ML. So
perhaps separated per-program lists should be available, instead of
one unified "users" ML? (I am not necessarily recommending it; just
mentioning such potential situation.)
Unfortunately users frequently don't know where to post a question or observation about a particular LO component. Also, some topics apply to the LO framework or to more than one LO component.
Add my support to that suggestion. I get tired of having to deal with
Base issues, since I don't use Base.
OTOH I find it educational to see how others are using LO components that I'm not using.
Then we have several irc channels, but none of those channels
targeted to users are really active, ever (e.g. #libreoffice and/or
#libreoffice-qa). So what's the point of publishing the "existence"
of those irc channels if they are not really open with someone from
the LibreOffice Team being present in the channel? I'm not saying
answers should be "on real time". For irc to be relevant for users,
someone at least should maintain the channel open and saving logs,
checking it once a day or so. This is one contact method that could
be easily used to report the typo mentioned in our example.
A very salient point. Someone should indeed monitor the IRC(s) and be an interface to/from the developers. Actually, an IRC is very much a realtime communication channel but you are suggesting using it as a minor issue drop box. That's an interesting concept.
One day is one typo, another day is another typo. Then there is some
minor low-priority bug in the installer (e.g adding a link to the
desktop even when the user unchecked the corresponding box during the
installation process). Then the wiki might need some little
correction or update... For each minor issue, a user could just think
"not worth going through all the sign up troubles for each different
service". As a consequence, none of those little corrections are
reported / performed.What's the point of "Ask LibreOffice" if each question is seen, say,
3 times in a one week period? Most questions are unanswered.
Similarly with LibreOffice forum. A user might not bother to sign up
to such a method that is hardly ever used by relevant users; and if
it goes through it anyway and no answer is provided (as it is the
case with most "Ask LibreOffice" topics), it would probably generate
a rejection response towards LibreOffice.
What is "Ask LibreOffice?" How is it accessed?
Regarding the previous 3 paragraphs:
irc channels, most people have never heard of them. The same for ICQ.
ICQ? I'm part of the uninformed crowd.
So they don't know how to use them. I use Skype and Yahoo Messenger.
Skype — VOIP?
Yahoo Messenger — no clue.
And I started using them because I was given the information those
systems existed. No software package has ever told me "You can get
help using the irc channels, and this is how you use them."Same for wikis and "Ask LIbreOffice". I didn't know "Ask LibreOffice"
even existed until your message. I, and the people I know, don't live
on LO, their smartphones, tablets, living their lives there. The
computer is a tool, not a virtual reality to live in.I think every download package should include some kind of messaging of
how and where to get help via some kind of splash screen (or something
similar) letting new users know of these help options, and how to get
to them.
Are the support channels listed via a menu entry such as Help->Support? I'm not currently at a computer so I can't check.
If a user signs up and opens a bug report, that's because it is
significant for him. Is this procedure relevant if the bug report is
left unanswered for 2 years? Is this user going to keep reporting
additional bugs? Evidently, solving bugs requires man power, so
finding a simpler method to report "you have a st*pid typo" might
help reduce wasted time, for both developers and users.
Very true. It might even be a stepping stone for getting new people involved in the process of providing support for others. I know that I would gladly perform proof reading and editing support functions if I only knew where to go. I would even be willing to endure a moderately tortuous registration process to get started with this support functionality.
Please can somebody ban him for bad language?