GIMP - was: CNET is claiming the best free MSO alternative is not LO

users
#1

Yes GIMP has a steep learning curve. As for learning curves, ever try to use Photoshop? Now that has a steep learning curve if you have not dealt with such a package before. PSP5 was so easy to use and learn, plus it had everything I wanted or needed for my work.

Also GIMP does not have all of the "filters" that I had with Paint Shop Pro 5 [or the new X5].

If there was an easier and/or better graphics program that I could use with Ubuntu 12.05, then I would give it a try.

Sometimes the books I have seen in the stores, or online, seem to be written by and for the graphic artist, and not those of us who need it for the more simple things, like repairing old photos or dealing with simple pixel-based graphics. for all [most] vector-based graphics, I use Inkscape. I have not really sat down and learned Draw for these things, yet. I am so use to Corel Draw 11, Inkscape is similar enough to use, is I am using Ubuntu. I have Corel Draw 11 on a Win7 laptop.

I just wish I really had the time to sit down and "play" with the packages, GIMP, Draw, and others, with a good book of instructions to help walk me through the processes.

#2

Hi :slight_smile:
Gimp and Photoshop are about as complex as each other.  The interfaces are roughly similar to the point where if you have used one you could probably work out what was going on in the other.  They do have slightly different approaches which means people familiar with one often claim the other is not as advanced or can't do such&such because they don't know how to do it.  It usually turns out they both have the same capabilities.  Both have extra packages/add-ons and extra filters/effects which you can buy/acquire/download.

Gimp tries to stay light so that it can work on really low-spec systems but it has a lot of stuff you can add to it.  Photoshop possibly has more bloat by default.  [shrugs]
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#3

Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:
<snip>

I need to relearn the interface for Paint Shop Pro X5, when I used version 5 since the XP days. But since I can not get v5 to install on Win7 Home Premium that my laptop has, I had to upgrade it and relearn the new interface. Same with PSP 5 or X5 vs. GIMP. The time it takes to relearn how to do the things that comes very easily to me with the old interface, well it is very frustrating to say the least and has taken 2 to 5 times longer to do the things I want/need to do.

Ahh! The Gimp. Great program and I do have some use for it. However, learning it has a _steep_ learning curve for me and, frankly, sitting at the screen and reading the online manual is not what I would prefer using my limited time for. There are several "learning" books out there, but which one is the best one I need to learn The Gimp? That is my problem with it. Once or twice I fiddled with it and got it to do somewhat what I wanted, but it wasn't very intuitive and I feel it could do so much more for me. If I could just get a good book on it and sit down and play with it...
Girvin Herr

<snip>

Yes GIMP has a steep learning curve. As for learning curves, ever try to use Photoshop?

No.

Now that has a steep learning curve if you have not dealt with such a package before. PSP5 was so easy to use and learn, plus it had everything I wanted or needed for my work.

Also GIMP does not have all of the "filters" that I had with Paint Shop Pro 5 [or the new X5].

If there was an easier and/or better graphics program that I could use with Ubuntu 12.05, then I would give it a try.

Sometimes the books I have seen in the stores, or online, seem to be written by and for the graphic artist, and not those of us who need it for the more simple things, like repairing old photos or dealing with simple pixel-based graphics.

Right on! That's all I need it for. A while back I tried to add arrow lines to a photo as an experiment to document where components were on a project. I couldn't get The Gimp to do it, though I was sure it could. In The Gimp, I could add the lines, but since it was not a vector (two end points), I could not move those lines if I needed to squeeze in another line beside it, unless I erased each and every pixel. I ended up using LO Draw, which is a vector drawing program, not a bitmap drawing program like The Gimp! It did a fine job and I was even able to add an underlying, slightly wider white line to enhance the readability of the black line over dark photo imagery. How many Gimp books must I buy and dispose of before I get one that is basic enough for me (i.e. "Gimp for Dummies?")

for all [most] vector-based graphics, I use Inkscape. I have not really sat down and learned Draw for these things, yet. I am so use to Corel Draw 11, Inkscape is similar enough to use, is I am using Ubuntu. I have Corel Draw 11 on a Win7 laptop.

I am very familiar with LO Draw. I use it a lot to draw diagrams in technical manuals. Draw does have some quirks, but it is fairly easy to use and productive. I am still learning things about it, such as freezing areas by putting them on a separate layer and making it unchangeable (unselectable?). That is required to allow inner objects to be selected without selecting a larger outer object. I generally use it as an embedded object in a Writer document, which has even more quirks. For some reason, the embedded Draw is a subset of the stand-alone Draw. For instance, zoom is not supported in the embedded version, so it gets difficult sometimes to work on a small object or grid. I have also found some quirks about scaling and adjusting locations in the embedded version. It can get really squirrelly sometimes. For example, if I try to enlarge the drawing in the embedded Draw by dragging the tags, nothing will happen. Then all of a sudden, the drawing will greatly enlarge, clipping the edges, and I cannot get it back to full extents again. As I said, squirrelly. I discovered the adjustments in the object frame properties to be helpful there.

I just wish I really had the time to sit down and "play" with the packages, GIMP, Draw, and others, with a good book of instructions to help walk me through the processes.

Ahh! There's the rub. I have the same problem. I usually start reading up on something to address a need, get distracted by something of higher priority, and then never get back to the book. Sometimes the original need goes away and it isn't so bad. Other times, I just don't get back to the problem. For example, I started reading up on Java a few months ago in order to learn enough about it to fix some non-fatal bugs in a database Report Generator (RG) I am using instead of the LO Base Oracle Report Builder (ORB), which I find too buggy to use. I got into chapter 2, got torn away from it by other priorities, and now that book is still on my coffee table gathering dust. I have no idea when I will ever get back to it. Probably when I next use the RG and get irritated with the bugs.

Girvin Herr

#4

Hi :slight_smile:
There are a lot of very simple drawing programs on Gnu&Linux;  gpaint (a bit like "Paint" in Windows accessories), gnome-paint, apparently mtpaint is as bit less simple and good for photos but still very basic.

Draw is excellent, especially for what you were using it for.  The arrows problem could have been solved in gimp by creating a 2nd layer and then put the arrow in there.  Then keep an original in xcf format and save as png, or gif (or even jpg if you must) for sharing.  However, Draw was probably the best choice to keep it simple!
Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

#5

<snip>

For arrows, I use a set of "arrow fonts" i.e. most of the font glyphs are arrows in different styles and "pointing directions". You cannot have arrows with long "tails" but this is a good solution for many of my arrow needs.

#6

Hi :slight_smile:
There are a lot of very simple drawing programs on Gnu&Linux; gpaint (a bit like "Paint" in Windows accessories), gnome-paint, apparently mtpaint is as bit less simple and good for photos but still very basic.

The Linux magazine ”Linux Format” compared image editors in their
LXF171 issue. The combatabts were GIMP, Inkscape, Krita, MyPaint and
Pinta. MyPaint won the user interface round, but was worst in a few
categories, such as text support, user interface customisability,
multimedia and animation. ”Winner” was Krita, then Inkscape, Gimp,
MyPaint and Pinta.

Johnny Rosenberg

#7

Hi :slight_smile:
I thought we were aiming at ones that look as simple as possible and don't have a lot of features.  Gimp and inkscape are hugely powerful but because of that they are a bit complicated.  MyPaint might be ok, it sounds like it might be simple.  Krita sounds like a KDE app but apart from that the name doesn't give much away about it's likely complexity/power.

I might have to try Krita but of the rest i would put Gimp in 1st place and then i'm not sure if i would put Inkscape or Draw in at 2nd.  The other would be 3rd.  I've not heard of Pinta either so i guess i should try it out someday.  Gimp does waaay more than i need.  I probably use about 1% of it's functionality, maybe not even that much! 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#8

Well, you need both pixel and vector based graphics packages. Yes they are like comparing apples and oranges, but both are needed in your list of graphic editing packages, along with some people needing CAD and Visio/Dia diagramming packages. I also would include a good photo stitching package. I use ICE on Windows [free from Microsoft], but I have not looked into one for Ubuntu.

The problem is finding an easy one to learn and use that has all the need features you might require. Paint Shop Pro 5 was that for me, but it would not install on Win7 Home Premium, which came with my laptop [but will install on Win7 Professional]. Been using PSP5 for something like 10 years. PSP X5 is not as easy to use, since the company wanted to compete with Photoshop since version 8 or 9, so the learning curve started to increase.

We all have our specific needs and ability to deal with the learning curves of the different image/graphics editors. Some are good, some are bad. Some are easy but not many features, but some are feature rich and hard to use.

There was a version of GIMP called GIMPshop that was a "hack" to try and make GIMP easier to use. I think it was a Windows only package though.

#9

The Linux magazine ”Linux Format” compared image editors in their
LXF171 issue. The combatabts were GIMP, Inkscape, Krita, MyPaint and
Pinta. MyPaint won the user interface round, but was worst in a few
categories, such as text support, user interface customisability,
multimedia and animation. ”Winner” was Krita, then Inkscape, Gimp,
MyPaint and Pinta.

To me, this is muddying the waters of what an image editing program is.

Image editing means manipulating a bitmap at the pixel level. Those
would be Gimp, Photoshop, etc.

Inkscape is a vector drawing program, such as Corel Draw and any CAD
program.

Totally different animals, and to compare them in one test is, to me,
wrong if not bogus.

Well, you need both pixel and vector based graphics packages. Yes they
are like comparing apples and oranges, but both are needed in your list
of graphic editing packages, along with some people needing CAD and
Visio/Dia diagramming packages. I also would include a good photo
stitching package. I use ICE on Windows [free from Microsoft], but I
have not looked into one for Ubuntu.

Agreed on all points. Although I'd say a good bitmap editor would do the stitching just fine if you choose to take time to do it. I used to do that with scans from a hand scanner in my Atari computing days.

But, to compare them? That would be like calling a Kenworth and a Ferrari racing cars. LOL

The problem is finding an easy one to learn and use that has all the
need features you might require.

This applies to any piece of software, not just graphics software. But you have to take the time to research other options, work with them enough to see which is the best tool for the job, and then use that tool.

I'm doing a personal research project that will result in something printed, just not sure what. To get everything done, Writer and any other word processor I've ever used, just plain sucks. Scrivener, OTOH, is looking super promising. At the moment, the printed output is the current concern. I've just been using it for the last two weeks, not constantly of course, but I am impressed. And no, I'm not doing a movie or stage script. LOL

That eye opening situation with Scrivener, now makes me want to try out LyX. http://www.lyx.org/Home

#10

Well, you need to read the whole article, of course, to understand how
and what they did, and why. My point was only to point out MyPaint as
a user friendly alternative, since I think the OP, among other things,
asked for that, at least between the lines.
Since I didn't try MyPaint myself (well, I did, but it seems like the
Ubuntu 12.04 repository version is older than the tested version, if I
remember correctly), I just used Linux Format as a reference. They
liked the program, even if it ended up at fourth place out of five.
”Less versatile than the others, but it succeeds in its mission
beautifully”, they said. Since versatility didn't seem to be critical,
I though MyPaint could be worth a try for someone. Only a suggestion,
nothing more than that.

Johnny Rosenberg

#11

The Linux magazine ”Linux Format” compared image editors in their
LXF171 issue. The combatabts were GIMP, Inkscape, Krita, MyPaint and
Pinta. MyPaint won the user interface round, but was worst in a few
categories, such as text support, user interface customisability,
multimedia and animation. ”Winner” was Krita, then Inkscape, Gimp,
MyPaint and Pinta.

To me, this is muddying the waters of what an image editing program is.

Image editing means manipulating a bitmap at the pixel level. Those
would be Gimp, Photoshop, etc.

Inkscape is a vector drawing program, such as Corel Draw and any CAD
program.

Totally different animals, and to compare them in one test is, to me,
wrong if not bogus.

Well, you need both pixel and vector based graphics packages. Yes they
are like comparing apples and oranges, but both are needed in your list
of graphic editing packages, along with some people needing CAD and
Visio/Dia diagramming packages. I also would include a good photo
stitching package. I use ICE on Windows [free from Microsoft], but I
have not looked into one for Ubuntu.

Agreed on all points. Although I'd say a good bitmap editor would do the stitching just fine if you choose to take time to do it. I used to do that with scans from a hand scanner in my Atari computing days.

But, to compare them? That would be like calling a Kenworth and a Ferrari racing cars. LOL

can you clarify this for me - suppose I have a set of purposes, e.g. altering color, inserting text, cropping, what have you; is it unreasonable to compare 'different animals' in respect of ease of use and quality of results in relation to specific ends like this?

(btw I compare apples to oranges all the time and indeed I prefer one to the other. I don't call them both 'citrus fruit' though, I do call them 'fruit' or food (actually, breakfast).)

why can't we compare "different animals" according to specific ends?

F.

#12

It depends on the specific ends. Then decide on the type of tool you wish to use. Once the type of tool is selected, then compare the different versions of that type tool.

Let's say you want to disassemble an engine. How about a '57 Chevy? What kind of tool do you want to use?

The first is to select the correct tools. Metric? Whitworth? SAE? The first two are obviously are not the right solution. They won't work worth a hoot. You can force them, but it would be a PITA to use.

Which type of SAE tool? Wrench? Ratchet and sockets? Air tools and sockets? You decide on air tools and sockets. Now is when you compare the tools. Who makes the best air tool, for you, to do the job. Snap-on? Cleveland Pneumatic? Mac? MacTool? Cornwell?

Now you have a valid basis on which to compare tools, as the all do the same basic job in the same manner. Compressed air to turn the sockets to remove nuts and bolts.

That does not mean the air tool is always the best solution. Sometimes the wrench is the best solution. And of all the variations of wrenches available, it might be a more specific wrench, an angle head wrench for example, is the best choice.

If you're specific end is to manipulate individual pixels in a bitmapped graphic, you use an image editor. You don't use a vector drawing program for that. Years ago, I used a couple of programs that claimed to do both, and in the end they did neither very well.

This is where you need to know what kind of specific tools are out there. In the case of computers, what types of software is available, and a general idea of their capabilities.

In your scenario, your first decision is what kind of graphic image is it? Bitmapped or vector? (In they auto example, what's the measurement system used? Metric, Whitworth, or SAE.) If bitmapped, you're changing individual pixels. If vector, you're changing areas. They are different situations, requiring different tools.

A bitmapped image is a painting. A vector graphic is your car. Would you use a spray can to touch up your painting? A paint brush to paint your car? Although, I knew a guy that did that!

Here's an example:

I've a friend who wanted to take a picture, place numbers over it and create a clock face. The only software she knew about was Photoshop Essentials. And I don't know how much time she'd spent on the project with no success. But she was frustrated.

After getting details from her, I did the job for her in 15 minutes in Inkscape, learning how to do it at the same time.

She had never bothered to learn what other computer tools were out there, and what they were capable of.

#13

<snip>
<snip/>

I've a friend who wanted to take a picture, place numbers over it and create a clock face. The only software she knew about was Photoshop Essentials. And I don't know how much time she'd spent on the project with no success. But she was frustrated.

After getting details from her, I did the job for her in 15 minutes in Inkscape, learning how to do it at the same time.

She had never bothered to learn what other computer tools were out there, and what they were capable of.

I think you described the typical computer users. They only know a couple applications and use them even if they are not good for the situation. Most I have seen have never read any book on any of the software they use or even have one as reference. And they are completely lost if they must use the help system or online tools.

#14

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
I didn't really get all the car tools references but the general idea came through anyway.

Sometimes you only need a minimal tool and then it is often better to choose something simple. However, i chose to use Gimp because i hoped to learn more skills just by seeing extra options in the menus.  It's kinda worked.  If i had stuck with simpler tools i might have got individual jobs done a bit faster but i probably wouldn't be able to do all that i've learned to do and it seems that some people prefer my work to properly trained professional photographers for certain events.  NOt something i was aiming for though!  I'm not really happy about dealing with people face-to-face but somehow hiding behind a camera seems to offset my apprehensions. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#15

If you're interested, feel free to email me about the tools references, and I'll do my best to explain them.

#16

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." (Abraham Maslow)

#17

<snip>

Well, you need both pixel and vector based graphics packages. Yes they
are like comparing apples and oranges, but both are needed in your list
of graphic editing packages, along with some people needing CAD and
Visio/Dia diagramming packages. I also would include a good photo
stitching package. I use ICE on Windows [free from Microsoft], but I
have not looked into one for Ubuntu.

Agreed on all points. Although I'd say a good bitmap editor would do the stitching just fine if you choose to take time to do it. I used to do that with scans from a hand scanner in my Atari computing days.

<snip>

I use to try to manually stitch photos together manually, but it was a very "painful" process. That is why I needed to find a good, and free, package to do it for me.

Now, for stitching photos together, I tend to have 5 to 20 of them involved in the process. I tend to make large format panoramas or even 360 degree photos of some landscape. I will be doing a photo project of making a panorama of all the sides of a building as one photo. These types of photo stitching projects takes less than a minute or two with a stitching package.

#18

The other application you could try if you are using Ubuntu is Shutter. I've had great success doing exactly that with screen shots...

#19

LOL I didn't say it was easy! Stitching packages were all but unavailable in those days.

#20

Ken,

you wrote about comparing unlike programs,

>do that with scans from a hand scanner in my Atari computing days.
>
>But, to compare them? That would be like calling a Kenworth and a
>Ferrari racing cars. LOL

and I asked,

can you clarify this for me - suppose I have a set of purposes, e.g.
altering color, inserting text, cropping, what have you; is it
unreasonable to compare 'different animals' in respect of ease of use
and quality of results in relation to specific ends like this?

(btw I compare apples to oranges all the time and indeed I prefer one
to the other. I don't call them both 'citrus fruit' though, I do call
them 'fruit' or food (actually, breakfast).)

why can't we compare "different animals" according to specific ends?

you replied that

It depends on the specific ends. Then decide on the type of tool you wish to use. Once the type of tool is selected, then compare the different versions of that type tool.

and here we agree.

then you wrote:

Let's say you want to disassemble an engine. How about a '57 Chevy? What kind of tool do you want to use?

The first is to select the correct tools. Metric? Whitworth? SAE? The first two are obviously are not the right solution. They won't work worth a hoot. You can force them, but it would be a PITA to use.

Which type of SAE tool? Wrench? Ratchet and sockets? Air tools and sockets? You decide on air tools and sockets. Now is when you compare the tools. Who makes the best air tool, for you, to do the job. Snap-on? Cleveland Pneumatic? Mac? MacTool? Cornwell?

Now you have a valid basis on which to compare tools, as the all do the same basic job in the same manner. Compressed air to turn the sockets to remove nuts and bolts.

That does not mean the air tool is always the best solution. Sometimes the wrench is the best solution.

let me interrupt the 'car talk'; you take back with one hand what you gave with the other. we can compare things according to our 'specific ends'. but that doesn't imply that our specific ends always require 'the best solution'! good enough is often good enough.

put another way, the 'the best solution' may not require including the optimally appropriate selection of tools.

we could have other ends that don't require this kind of optimality. this is usually the case for casual users of image programs and of other things like selection of car or place to have dinner.

And of all the variations of wrenches available, it might be a more specific wrench, an angle head wrench for example, is the best choice.

If you're specific end is to manipulate individual pixels in a bitmapped graphic, you use an image editor. You don't use a vector drawing program for that. Years ago, I used a couple of programs that claimed to do both, and in the end they did neither very well.

if your specific end includes this sort of optimality, yes; otherwise not so much. I'm not sure how this optimality condition slipped in.

This is where you need to know what kind of specific tools are out there. In the case of computers, what types of software is available, and a general idea of their capabilities.

In your scenario, your first decision is what kind of graphic image is it? Bitmapped or vector? (In they auto example, what's the measurement system used? Metric, Whitworth, or SAE.) If bitmapped, you're changing individual pixels. If vector, you're changing areas. They are different situations, requiring different tools.

A bitmapped image is a painting. A vector graphic is your car. Would you use a spray can to touch up your painting? A paint brush to paint your car? Although, I knew a guy that did that!

Here's an example:

I've a friend who wanted to take a picture, place numbers over it and create a clock face. The only software she knew about was Photoshop Essentials. And I don't know how much time she'd spent on the project with no success. But she was frustrated.

After getting details from her, I did the job for her in 15 minutes in Inkscape, learning how to do it at the same time.

She had never bothered to learn what other computer tools were out there, and what they were capable of.

yes, it's good to know different tools. of course not _every_ use of some suboptimal tool causes hours of wasted effort, may even spare effort.

this all was a bit of a digression from my question why we cannot compare 'different animals'. seems we can.

F.