Global site release page and translation

l10n
#1

We would like to get some idea of how much time would be reasonable for the language teams to get notice of the completion of the global "3.7 Features and Fixes" page to allow you for translation?

If, for example, the "3.7 Features and Fixes" page was ready for translation 7 days before the official release of LibreOffice 3.7, would this leave you enough time to translate? Would you need more time than this?

We are just trying to see if we could coordinate more language communities to complete these pages and ready by the official release dates.

FYI, I am involved in completing the features pages on the global site and usually get an OK from the devs to start on working on the new release page when the version is in final RC version.

Any feedback on this would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Marc

#2

I am more worried about the procedure of localizing. I had to manually
create this page for Slovenian and to copy and paste the English
content from the live version of the page.
Could you not create a translated version of it for those language
sites that want it (and make it invisible for the localization team to
finish it off?

Thanks,
m.

#3

Hi Martin,

Martin Srebotnjak wrote (11-08-12 09:36)

I am more worried about the procedure of localizing. I had to manually
create this page for Slovenian and to copy and paste the English
content from the live version of the page.

I copied the whole html code, saved it local, and added most of the Dutch (privided by some other members) there, then pasted it in the empty Dutch that I made.

Could you not create a translated version of it for those language
sites that want it (and make it invisible for the localization team to
finish it off?

Adding to the navigation menu was the last step. Before that, it was not 'visible' :wink:

Ciao,

#4

Hi Cor and Martin

Hi Martin,

Martin Srebotnjak wrote (11-08-12 09:36)

I am more worried about the procedure of localizing. I had to manually
create this page for Slovenian and to copy and paste the English
content from the live version of the page.

I copied the whole html code, saved it local, and added most of the
Dutch (privided by some other members) there, then pasted it in the
empty Dutch that I made.

Could you not create a translated version of it for those language
sites that want it (and make it invisible for the localization team to
finish it off?

Adding to the navigation menu was the last step. Before that, it was not
'visible' :wink:

Ciao,

I would imagine that this is what most groups would do (if they find the preferences page to their liking). If you are the person maintaining the site and translating, then it would be easiest to copy the html code directly into your SilverStripe page and then do the translation from the English text.

BTW ... you can also publish the page without it appearing in the menu line and also turn off the search so that search engines cannot find them -- this allows you to have other community members verify the page before adding it to the menu line.

As far as creating a translated version, I am not sure how the SilverStripe translation would work, but yes, it does look like this could be done for individual languages that ask for this ... but ... I think Christian would know how this would work (I am copying this to him). Not sure how well it would translate the page. Maybe there would be a way to test this.

Cheers,

Marc

#5

Hi Marc,

Marc Paré wrote (11-08-12 09:27)

We would like to get some idea of how much time would be reasonable for
the language teams to get notice of the completion of the global "3.7
Features and Fixes" page to allow you for translation?

I have no specific idea for that. Of course one day is not enough.
But somewhere between 5 and 8 should be OK for us.

Of course a lot of the information is already available on the wiki for a longer time, so anyone interested could start working on it early, also helping rewriting technical stuff in a way that end users can understand.

And of course, thanks for all your work on the 3.6 page!

Cheers,

#6

Hi all,

Hi Marc,

Marc Paré wrote (11-08-12 09:27)

We would like to get some idea of how much time would be reasonable for
the language teams to get notice of the completion of the global "3.7
Features and Fixes" page to allow you for translation?

I have no specific idea for that. Of course one day is not enough.
But somewhere between 5 and 8 should be OK for us.

having a week-end in this time frame is a real plus :slight_smile:

Of course a lot of the information is already available on the wiki for
a longer time, so anyone interested could start working on it early,
also helping rewriting technical stuff in a way that end users can
understand.

May be we should use the projects@list and post reminders on a regular basis about the features page and the stuff needed to be translated (because localizer are not always the members doing the translation).

And of course, thanks for all your work on the 3.6 page!

+1, thanks a lot :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Sophie

#7

Hi,
I don't see the local pages as translation of the English web page. I see it as a local page based on the wiki.

I started working in a localized version months ago - based on the wiki.

The native websites also have procedures for proof reading etc. and seven days is not at all enough.

I don't understand why we couldn't get (parts of) it at an earlier stage. The code freeze is several weeks before so there are no surprises lets say one month before. If we can asḱ the development team to update the wiki page at an earlier stage - then the English web site team can start working on the English website about one month before release - but parts can be done long time before that.

Bur as I said: the wiki page should be the source - not the English web page.

Cheers,
Leif Lodahl

#8

Marc,

I believe what might help with getting these pages localized would be
an automated workflow that converted the desired text into PO file
format (and back again). I think this might be what Martin is
referencing when he says "procedure for localizing" and "make it
invisible for the localization team to finish it off".

It would be desirable if something like inlttool

http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/intltool/

were employed to offer a method that presented this work in a format
that a localizer would consider properly internationalized (e.g.
produces PO files posted on your Pootle instance that are synched with
templates). Not every language community is led by an HTML source
hacker or a wiki master.

As an example, the Gnome project uses Mallard and intltool to make it
possible for their language teams to localize the Gnome docs in PO
format. It is quite enough work for most language teams to perform
the translation without having to master multiple mark-up languages
(i.e. either HTML or wiki).

Do you think it would be possible for the documentation team to
perform the i18n task and take that step to meet the localizer
half-way by providing PO files to work on in Pootle?

cjl

#9

Hi Leif,

Hi,
I don't see the local pages as translation of the English web page. I
see it as a local page based on the wiki.

I started working in a localized version months ago - based on the wiki.

The native websites also have procedures for proof reading etc. and
seven days is not at all enough.

I don't understand why we couldn't get (parts of) it at an earlier
stage. The code freeze is several weeks before so there are no surprises
lets say one month before. If we can asḱ the development team to update
the wiki page at an earlier stage - then the English web site team can
start working on the English website about one month before release -
but parts can be done long time before that.

Bur as I said: the wiki page should be the source - not the English web
page.

Cheers,
Leif Lodahl

The choice of basing the translation of either the wiki or web page is, of course, up to the native language teams. The question was mostly to the teams who would like to base their choice on the web page -- some of the teams may not have the time to learn SilverStripe and may find it easier to copy the html code directly into their pages and translate. Then we can all share in tweaking the pages and feedback. I am also hoping that this will free some time for the teams to put together localized images rather than have EN images as examples.

As for the code freeze and all, yes the vast majority of information is available from the wiki as of code freeze. I am not sure if we can push the dev team to complete it earlier -- that is something that would need to be asked.

Cheers,

Marc

#10

Hi Chris,

Marc,

I believe what might help with getting these pages localized would be
an automated workflow that converted the desired text into PO file
format (and back again). I think this might be what Martin is
referencing when he says "procedure for localizing" and "make it
invisible for the localization team to finish it off".

It would be desirable if something like inlttool

http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/intltool/

were employed to offer a method that presented this work in a format
that a localizer would consider properly internationalized (e.g.
produces PO files posted on your Pootle instance that are synched with
templates). Not every language community is led by an HTML source
hacker or a wiki master.

As an example, the Gnome project uses Mallard and intltool to make it
possible for their language teams to localize the Gnome docs in PO
format. It is quite enough work for most language teams to perform
the translation without having to master multiple mark-up languages
(i.e. either HTML or wiki).

Do you think it would be possible for the documentation team to
perform the i18n task and take that step to meet the localizer
half-way by providing PO files to work on in Pootle?

cjl

I am not sure if this would be possible. It does sound interesting but I think I would not be the one to organize this as I am quite unfamiliar with any of these tools. If we could get to the point where we could test it out we could make a case for it.

I am, just like most of you, short of time as well. Someone else would have to create the initiative for this.

BTW ... Jean is away at an important conference on documentation and maybe she will come back with an idea on this.

Cheers,

Marc

#11

Hi Cor and Sophie,

Hi all,

Hi Marc,

Marc Paré wrote (11-08-12 09:27)

We would like to get some idea of how much time would be reasonable for
the language teams to get notice of the completion of the global "3.7
Features and Fixes" page to allow you for translation?

I have no specific idea for that. Of course one day is not enough.
But somewhere between 5 and 8 should be OK for us.

having a week-end in this time frame is a real plus :slight_smile:

Of course a lot of the information is already available on the wiki for
a longer time, so anyone interested could start working on it early,
also helping rewriting technical stuff in a way that end users can
understand.

May be we should use the projects@list and post reminders on a regular
basis about the features page and the stuff needed to be translated
(because localizer are not always the members doing the translation).

And of course, thanks for all your work on the 3.6 page!

+1, thanks a lot :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Sophie

Thanks for your suggestions. We'll make sure a weekend is included for the 3.7. I have already prepped the webpage and am adding notes in the to-do section.

I'll post the notes on the projects@list as well.

Thanks also for your notes of encouragement.

Cheers,

Marc

#12

Well that is always the way it is for everyone; however, when asking
fast turn around from your L10n community, it would behoove you to
make it as easy as possible for them to do their work. The typical
breakdown in FOSS is that i18n is the responsibility of the developer
or the doc-writer, L10n is the job of the localizer. You don't get
one without the other.

cjl

#13

Hi Chris

I am, just like most of you, short of time as well. Someone else would have
to create the initiative for this.

Well that is always the way it is for everyone; however, when asking
fast turn around from your L10n community, it would behoove you to
make it as easy as possible for them to do their work. The typical
breakdown in FOSS is that i18n is the responsibility of the developer
or the doc-writer, L10n is the job of the localizer. You don't get
one without the other.

cjl

Actually, I am not asking for a fast turnaround but offering help in trying to find more time for the translation of the webpage to the translators before the official release of the page.

Your proposal sounds great, but I am not knowledgeable enough to undertake it. No problem if no one is able to work it out to do a test try. We can keep it as a wishlist item.

I will then try to give more warning on the projects list of the impending completion of the release page; try to allow more time for translation teams and make sure that a weekend is included in the time remaining before the version release date.

Cheers,

Marc

#14

Hi all,

Marc Paré wrote (12-08-12 00:26)

[...]
As for the code freeze and all, yes the vast majority of information is
available from the wiki as of code freeze. I am not sure if we can push
the dev team to complete it earlier -- that is something that would need
to be asked.

Apart from all other ideas, I would like to bring under attention once more that it is useful if people have the opportunity to do some work on the wiki-information early.

For example there is the technical phrase
"Zooming now is based on a geometric progression. Bug report: fdo#44173. (Thanks to Tim Hardeck)"

Since I saw the discussion on the UX list, I would rewrite that as
"Zooming in and out now lets the active part of the document be placed better on the display" ... ah well, and then in proper English.
E.g. if you zoom in, the focus stay's on the spot where you work.

(Obviously, I failed to follow my own advice, e.g. working on the wiki-info in time :wink: )

Cheers,

#15

Hi Chris and all,

I am, just like most of you, short of time as well. Someone else would have
to create the initiative for this.

Well that is always the way it is for everyone; however, when asking
fast turn around from your L10n community, it would behoove you to
make it as easy as possible for them to do their work. The typical
breakdown in FOSS is that i18n is the responsibility of the developer
or the doc-writer, L10n is the job of the localizer. You don't get
one without the other.

I think that Marc made the same mistake as mine, he didn't want to speak to the localizer only but to the language communities around us. We really need to have a dedicated list for this communication without disturbing the purpose of the work done here.
Would it be possible that (may be with the help of the webmasters of the local sites in your language, or if you follow the lists in your own language) you ask interested people to subscribe to the projects@ list?
This list is really dedicated to tasks that are transversal to the different projects being marketing, documentation, whatever other translations or information we need to provide to the language communities.
That would avoid misunderstanding here, waste of time for the communities that are too small any way, and may be away to attract more people to participate directly in their own language.
Thanks in advance
Kind regards
Sophie

#16

Hi Sophie

I think that Marc made the same mistake as mine, he didn't want to speak
to the localizer only but to the language communities around us. We
really need to have a dedicated list for this communication without
disturbing the purpose of the work done here.
Would it be possible that (may be with the help of the webmasters of the
local sites in your language, or if you follow the lists in your own
language) you ask interested people to subscribe to the projects@ list?
This list is really dedicated to tasks that are transversal to the
different projects being marketing, documentation, whatever other
translations or information we need to provide to the language communities.
That would avoid misunderstanding here, waste of time for the
communities that are too small any way, and may be away to attract more
people to participate directly in their own language.
Thanks in advance
Kind regards
Sophie

Thanks for the suggestion. I will report then to the projects@list and perhaps make arrangements to email directly to the different site webmasters. This does sound like the best route to take.

My apologies to the list for the extra noise.

Cheers,

Marc