How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

users
#1

Last night, I was in the middle of a thread on the Linux Users Group on Facebook.

There was a question in it about wondering how to get the users of Linux to save LibreOffice files to Microsoft Word formats.  To me, it came up when I described a wish to use Linux for a secure computer center/lab.

I double checked and gave him the answer.  I have not thought about how to do that for years.

So, although the Facebook user group is not a LibreOffice group, there still is a need to answer LibreOffice questions once in a while. I am part of it, because of what it is useful for.

Maybe I will look into the LibreOffice Facebook page.

#2

Why would we want to, unless we had to? The whole point of the Open
Document formats was to be a non proprietary method that anyone can
use. Unlike MS formats, ODF is fully open. Perhaps you should go to a
site called Groklaw and read about all the nonsense with MS forcing
their new spec through ISO, to make it a standard, when even their own
implementation didn't comply with it.

I use ODF formats unless I have a need to use MS, such as uploading
documents to a web site that does not accept ODF.

#3

You did forget to ask Tim-L what Facebook has to do with this problem ...

:wink:

#4

To make it easier to more readily exchange documents with others. I
don't help many LibreOffice on Linux users but I do help a number of
LibreOffice on Windows users and I usually configure LibreOffice to save
in Microsoft formats, by default. Most of these people don't understand
different file formats and want to be able to "just send" files to
friends, family, or other members of a group or something.

Being a Linux user, myself, I save files in Microsoft format only when I
*know* I need to send a Word or Excel file to someone else. Otherwise,
any files I need to send to people are saved as PDF.

I've never heard of the Linux Users Facebook Group until today. :slight_smile:

Peace...

"The Other" Tom

#5

I trust the answer was "Don't" - or at least "Do so only when essential, and never by default"!

Apart from the recommendations of a previous suggestion, note that some facilities of LibreOffice cannot be saved in Microsoft's proprietary formats and that converting to and fro into and out of formats foreign to LibreOffice - as is the case if you save in Microsoft's formats - is a recipe for document instability. What you see when you reopen a document may not be what you saw before you saved it.

Brian Barker

#6

I don't help many LibreOffice on Linux users but I do help a number of LibreOffice on Windows users and I usually configure LibreOffice to save in Microsoft formats, by default.

Please don't.

Most of these people don't understand different file formats and want to be able to "just send" files to friends, family, or other members of a group or something. Being a Linux user, myself, I save files in Microsoft format only when I *know* I need to send a Word or Excel file to someone else. Otherwise, any files I need to send to people are saved as PDF.

I don't see the relevance of your reference to being a Linux user: there is none. Surely this is the way to work independently of the operating system being used? (Or colour of computer? Or day of the week?)

Since you are capable enough to know exactly how best to act in this matter, surely you are a good enough teacher to bring your pupils up to your standard of use? You do them a disservice by allowing them only a poorer technique than your own.

Brian Barker

#7

I suspect anyone using Facebook already has enough problems. :wink:

#8

I read a "question" about LibreOffice and then answered it.  From that last statement, it could seem to be a negative response of unfriendly people. I hope that is was meant as a joke.

Who can afford to buy MS Office these days.

So, if your kids need to write papers that require MS Office formats, then Open Document Formats will not do.  I know that over half of our local schools still have a MSO that did not even think about supporting a .odt document. So you either need to save it as DOC or DOCX to work with those computers.

Why Facebook?  Well I was talking about using Linux for its security option of needing a Root Password to install packages. Just give the users Firefox, Skype, and LibreOffice.  Thats it. Then there was the comment about not remembering how to make sure the users defaulted to MSO formats, instead of trying to remember to save it to DOC/DOCX instead of ODT.

You would not believe that info, and questions, that get on a Facebook Linux support group. One thread I am keep monitoring is what is the best distro of Linux and why.

#9

You are trying to find a solution to a problem.
The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX documents')
Try to solve the problem, and try not to find a work-around as solution.

#10

The real issue is why do LMS admins appear to routinely disable ODF file
format compatibility?

Is that something they do, or is it that they aren't aware of ODF file
formats, or is it that the instructors that don't know what ODF file
formats are?

More than once, I've encountered an office that used AOo, with it
configured to save to MS doc, because they thought that nobody else
would be able to read/write/edit ODF file formats, even though literally
every entity that they exchanged documents with, either used LibO or AOo.

jonathon

#11

You are trying to find a solution to a problem.
The problem is the wrong choice of the school ('only DOC or DOCX documents')
Try to solve the problem, and try not to find a work-around as solution.

I teach at a college. I use LO, LyX and LaTeX for my work. All of my
students use MSO. The reasons? It is familiar to them and they get it
free as college students. I don't know if this is standard MS policy or
a special arrangement the college has made with Redmond.

My experience with college students is that most have no clue about
different file formats. They just save their work in whatever format
defaults on their programs, which happens to be .DOCX, .XLSX, etc.

Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
easiest solution to this situation.

I suppose I could insist that all of my students use .ODT file format
instead of .DOC, but I've decided its easier for one person (me) to
change his file format for a specific task than it is for scores of
students to change theirs. I want them to focus their efforts on the
substance of the test rather than the nuances of computer software.

I suppose that I could also crusade to solve the "problem" of the school
choosing the wrong office suite for its students, but that Quixotic
quest will take much more time and emotional energy than I have.

It is much easier for me to simply select a native MSO format than it is
to fight an impossible dream against the tide of inertia. I only do it
when I need to and I am deeply grateful to the LO developers for
creating a program that translates to .DOC and .DOCX so well.

But, this thread has piqued my interest in the Linux FB user's group.
I'll check it out.

Virgil

#12

If they have a recent version of ms-word they should be able to read odt files into word without problem..

So, using odt, doc or docx should be transparent (I hope)

#13

Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
Document files. Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
ODF files?

#14

i tried to open and ods (with Excel2013), lay-out was wrong, but it worked!

#15

Enviar: lunes 30 de abril de 2018 a las 17:11
De: "James Knott" <james.knott@jknott.net>
Para: users@global.libreoffice.org
Asunto: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
> easiest solution to this situation.

Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
Document files. Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
ODF files?

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That is exactly right, no student today should have a problem reading an odt file with MS Office as odt support has been incorporated in MSO since 2007 when MSO also defaulted to the docx format as a result of criticism of its closed formats.

Having been sickened early on by the "advertising" coming from Apple, Samsung and others, the "signature" of my business mail notes that it was produced using Linux and open-source applications. (If I am forced to use a mobile, it notes that K-9 Mail is the FOSS source.) One should be making every effort to promote open source and letting the world know that there alternatives to the commercial applications that try to hold us captive.

In the case of students, I would go a step further with a footnote:

*The attached file was produced by LibreOffice, a powerful Free and Open-Source Software (FOSS) office suite and saved in the Open Document Format. To learn more about FOSS, click here. To learn more about LibreOffice and download it for free, click here.

The FOSS link might be to this: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html. Of course a link could also be provided to a Wikipedia or other page about ODF.

#16

I started this thread with the notice of someone on a Facebook post wondering how to default to saving to MS Word format.

Yes, a "crusade" to get schools to make the switch to Open Document Formats should be looked into.  But that is not what was implied in the thread I originally talked about.

The thread, in part, went into a sidebar about security in a computer center and control of what packages would be allowed to be accessible. I stated that I had to spend time a week to uninstall all of the user installed packages to download files that was not allowed, or illegal.  Things like porn [normal and illegal types] and copyrighted movies, TV shows, etc. Some people who we caught were evicted and/or arrested. The computer center was closed.  I told him that I tried to get the powers-that-be switch to Linux systems and only have packages like Firefox, Skype, and LibreOffice accessible to the users. Having to use a Root password to install any packages would help keep the computers clean.

Then the question of saving MSO file formats by default was posed.

After that, I posted the start of this thread.

I did not expect the call for a "crusade" to get the schools to allow ODFs to be used.  I just wanted to post that there are non-LibreOffice user groups that questions may come up about using LO.  This is not the first time I have dealt with emails and user group questions about using LibreOffice.

#17

No, it is just the one you settled on.

The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your students.

#18

Hi :slight_smile:
Microsoft have problems following any standard or any format, even their
own. Usually it looks like their ineptitude looks a lot like a deliberate
attempt to ensure that people have to keep buying newer and newer versions
of MS Office to keep up with everyone else.

MS Office 2007 and 2010 claimed to be able to read ODF but had trouble with
spreadsheets. They saw that people were using version 2.? of ODF and
decided to go for 'compatibility' with version 1.0 (or 1.1) of ODF
instead. That meant they could claim they were reaching out and had
fulfilled obligations/promises/expectations to be able to read other
people's formats but ensured that there would be significant hiccups.

By the time of MS Office 2013 the ODF version 2.? had finally become
formally recognised as "stable" by the committee that manages it.

So, MS ran out of reasonable excuses for failing to implement the same
version of ODF as everyone else. This time it would look like ineptitude.

With their own 'new' format each different version of MS Office used a
different "transitional version" of their format - using the excuse that
their own ISO format was too difficult to implement.

Regards from
a Tom :slight_smile:

#19

Hi :slight_smile:
Pdf is not meant to be editable. It's purpose was to look the same
everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
small, easily installed program.

For editable documents the best format is still .Doc and the other older MS
formats. Now that MS have stopped developing it there are no unexpected
new bumps - and it's old enough that it's a familiar option in most
programs.

It still has problems such as vulnerability to malware but even the most
recent versions of MS's newest format apparently have that problem too. Of
course such malware relies on users opening the document with MS Officee.
To get infected in the first place needs someone with skills and
intent/ineptitude between document creator and weeu - or to be created on
an appropriately infected version of MS Office.

So Virgil's use of the older MS Format neatly avoids almost all of the
usual problems of that format and completely avoids the incompatibility
issues between each of the "transitional" versions of their newer format.

When saving in MS Formats it is wise to keep an original copy in ODF
because every version of MS Office seems to like stuffing-up documents it
saves in any format.

Regards from
a Tom :slight_smile:

#20

Thank you for the suggestion. My personal computer is Linux only, but
I'll check it out on the school's computers to see how well MSO reads
and writes to .odt. I don't even know what version of MSO the school uses.

Virgil