How to handle regressions

Hi,

/me read this thread to this point and I have to say as a developer (not in the LibO code base):

As a non developer (which Charles is) you easily underestimate the effort needed.

I am advertising for Collabora now (there are others as well) https://libreoffice-from-collabora.com/product/ and https://libreoffice-from-collabora.com/l3-support/

L3 Support means "Fixing bugs on the code"

9 bugs for 30k €. That is a fair price...

Continuing reading the thread now...

PS: If a volunteer does not tackle your pet bug, you should get someone to fix it (search for "libreoffice L3 support" for other service provider...

Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger

Hi :slight_smile:
Yes, we should re-educate the entire world before trying to get LibreOffice
"out there"! It'd be better than trying to doing something that makes
immediate sense to everyone intuitively!
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi,

You can find daily builds here: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/

Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger

What you do is once a week install and test a daily build, verifying that issues that affect your organization have been fixed, or if not, what did not work correctly.

The ideal is for you to construct a system to automtically download, install, run, and test the daily builds everyday, verifying what is fixed, determining what is still broken, and finding out what is newly broken.

jonathon

Do those bug fixes get rolled back into LibreOffice?
[ Assuming all the caveats about code acceptance by LibO are met. ]

jonathon

Hi :slight_smile:
I think probably the best way to handle it is to arrange a meeting with
your boss. Make sure it's a proper meeting rather than just trying to
catch him/her "on the fly" while he/she is busy dealing with other stuff.

Apologise profusely for having tried to save the company x amount of
money!
That you did so by trying to avoid the needed upgrade to MS Office
2013/365. Explain that you have put tons of your own time into saving the
company money in this way. Let him/her know that the office workers are
now demanding that the company buy in MS Office 2013/365 at a cost of x.

Let him/her know that MS products typically run into many problems when
they are first released but that most of those have probably been fixed by
now. Let him/her know that by delaying the cost you have ensured that the
company should run into far fewer problems with their purchase than they
would have done if they had just spent the money back when MS Office
2013/365 was initially released.

Maybe point out that there still will be problems because each version of
MS Office has problems reading some files from any previous versions and
that will continue to be a problem as each new version of MS Office needs
to be bought. Maybe follow-up by saying that converting documents to
LibreOffice only suffers that problem the one time and that future versions
of LibreOffice are built to ensure that old files can be read

Maybe say that the whole exercise to save the company x amount seems to
have created tensions with colleagues and been disheartening and taken up a
lot of your own time and that for those reasons you would rather not be
involved with installing MS Office 2013/365.

Basically wash your hands of it and point out that your motives were good
but that it was tooo much of an uphill fight that you are not happy to
continue with. It would help to know the licensing cost, x. For 2013 i've
heard around $500/machine for the version with Access in it or for 365 it's
probably a monthly figure. Companies can often get a discount and get a
"volume" license.

DON'T offer to share your research on this! Just make it sound like you
have heard a rumour that it costs roughly x. Picking the right version of
MS Office is notoriously difficult and likely to run into problems.
Whichever version you (or anyone else) choose is likely to be the wrong one
and incurr extra, hidden costs = if it's you that did the choosing or
recommending then they might think it was you deliberately sabotaging the
project so make sure it's someone else that is highly visibly to blame.

Similarly with installing it. it's likely to be a lot more of a struggle
than they probably realise and is likely to over-run both in time taken and
costs. So, again make sure you are visibly distanced from it. Try not to
help in any way to avoid getting the blame when they make mistakes! If
they need information then deliver it to your boss for your boss to hand on
to whoever is doing the installs.

Hopefully they'll need to get some external consultants in to do it, and as
is typical in the Window world those consultants will be tooo arrogant to
ask for any information or help.

Maybe at the end of the exercise arrange another meeting with your boss to
talk about talking back routine administration of the MS Office systems and
just express amazement at just how high the costs were, that you had been
trying to save the company from!

It might be worth asking a lawyer's advice about refusing to do certain
parts of what might be in your employment contract = there might be
justifiable excuses. Perhaps time to take a holiday?

Sorry this is not particularly useful! I know you have worked hard at this
and now find yourself in an untenable situation so i hope you are able to
work out a way of freeeing yourself and maybe gain a lot of respect from
your boss and maybe from the other workers too.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

We need to explain how it works for LibreOffice. Did already someone
suggest that? Did someone already spent some of the precious time for that?
It would be a trap to offer people something that they 'intuitively'
think to understand, which is wrong in our special situation.

Sorry I can't make it any easier :slight_smile:
Cheers,
Cor

Hi :slight_smile:
This is exactly why most normal users would call the "Fresh" branch
"unstable".

If "Fresh" is 'sold' (ie described in marketing (such as on the website's
download page)) as being the only one available or 'sold' as anything
other than what it is then those users will say that it's the whole of
LibreOffice that is unstable.

It's not fair but that is the way it is. [shrugs]

Of course most people wont even consider touching an MS product until after
the "Service Pack 1" is released. It's so well known that there are likely
to be significant problems before that. Sometimes MS does tricks to try to
get a minor update released quite quickly and call that Sp1 or they say Sp1
is included in the original release but that usually seems to prove wrong.
So some places wont touch an MS product until after Sp2 now.

Many individuals like to risk it and become "early adopters". Many
"Systems Administrators" and people who write articles for magazines or do
YouTube videos like to get extremely early releases of things so that they
can be ahead of the game and be prepared.

Maybe we could say that x.x.2 is our Sp1 and x.x.4 is Sp2. It is not quite
the same thing and the models are different but it would give people
something more familiar that they could understand more easily
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

<snip />

Hi,

From Collabora and other serious providers IMHO YES, unless the customer demands otherwise (which would be not very wise, as it costs much much more),

Does that answer your question?

Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger

Let's see...

Pay you extortion in the amount of $4,200 (assuming I can get just one
bug fixed for 1/9th the quoted price, which I suspect is unlikely) to
fix a *regression* caused by someone arbitrarily deciding to *replace*
(as opposed to providing the new feature, but allow users to fall back
to the old functionality) a feature that has been working fine for 10?
years with a 'new & improved' version (not knocking the feature itself,
just that it doesn't work properly in that it lacks a very fundamental
and necessary capability), or...

Stick with 4.1.6 (that actually works).

Let me think about it for a while - and please feel free to hold your
breathe while I do...

Blimey! Normal users need to do coding work?

The OP is complaining about a regression caused bug.

What I was describing was how to catch such critters _before_ they bevome a problem, and vetify the bug fixes do fix the bug in question.

Also with most programs it's possible for most people to just use the software without having to get so involved.

What I describe is what any sysadmin worth their salt wold do, with _all_ of the FLOSS an, where an when available, non-FLOSS, that is deployed throughout the organization they work for.

jonathon

which would be not very wise,

That sounds a lot like the knight claiming to only have suffered from a flesh wound.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, dankie.

jonathon

Hi,

You are a big company and you would buy MS Office for 100$ per year each. (500 seat it was? -> 50 000$ per year.
And with LibO you can get a free product. If this is not enough you can
1) Do it yourself
2) Let it fix
@MS you cannot do that easily (1) and I do not know if MS fixes a bug for a 60 seat company....
With LibreOffice you can choose which company should fix the bug, which keeps prices fair and low!

I am sorry if the following sounds a bit sharp: do not rant. That won't help! If you want to have this bug fixes, pay for the fix. (Or test if works on master.... I guess this bug should be fixed relatively quick.

Liebe Grüße, / Yours,
Florian Reisinger

9 bugs for 30k €. That is a fair price...

Continuing reading the thread now...

PS: If a volunteer does not tackle your pet bug, you should get
someone to fix it (search for "libreoffice L3 support" for other
service provider...

Let's see...

Pay you extortion in the amount of $4,200 (assuming I can get just one
bug fixed for 1/9th the quoted price, which I suspect is unlikely) to
fix a *regression* caused by someone arbitrarily deciding to *replace*
(as opposed to providing the new feature, but allow users to fall back
to the old functionality) a feature that has been working fine for 10?
years with a 'new & improved' version (not knocking the feature itself,
just that it doesn't work properly in that it lacks a very fundamental
and necessary capability), or...

What you call extortion is a price of a service. I suspect your employer does sell products or services too, and that you are yourself paid to accomplish something, aren't you?
The real extortion here is someone who expects people to work for his own needs for free.

As for regressions, they are indeed arbitrary. They are obviously not intended, and software development *works that way*. Don't belive me, just go ahead, buy MS Office licenses, and wait for the next bug to happen. Then you can come back here and tell us about bugs and regression.

Note that the patch already exists, but that you were not proactive in even calling attention on the issue. This seems to suggest that the situation your company is on with respect to your LibreOffice deployment is not really problematic. If you are not ready to pay anything to have someone fix your problem, and don't even show up to call for an integration of the patch as soon as possible, then it looks like your problem is not really urgent, even in regard to your corporate requirements.

Stick with 4.1.6 (that actually works).

It works really well, with an important vulnerability left unpatched. That seems to be not important to you either: http://www.libreoffice.org/about-us/security/advisories/

I guess everyone has his or her own priorities, but if anything happens because of that, you will have been warned.

Best,

Charles.

Hi :slight_smile:
This "blame the user" mentality belongs more properly in the MS and
proprietary world. It makes more sense in the OpenSource world but
generally i don't see it in other OpenSource projects (apart from
Evolution) and i'm quite glad of that. It's one of the many reasons i'm
glad to be mostly freed from the MS world.

Tanstaafl seems to be being blamed for at leat 2 contradictory things here.
1. for bringing up his pet bug too often
2. for not bringing it up often enough.

Hmm, tricky.

I thought bug-reports announced to all subscribed to that bug-report when a
patch was released and again when the patch got into a main-branch.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi Tom,

Hi :slight_smile:
This "blame the user" mentality belongs more properly in the MS and
proprietary world. It makes more sense in the OpenSource world but
generally i don't see it in other OpenSource projects (apart from
Evolution) and i'm quite glad of that. It's one of the many reasons i'm
glad to be mostly freed from the MS world.

When users rant against volunteers, that won't work whatever the
community...

Tanstaafl seems to be being blamed for at leat 2 contradictory things here.
1. for bringing up his pet bug too often
2. for not bringing it up often enough.

He is not blamed for bringing his pet bug, but for not being proactive
on it and for waiting that a volunteer take care of it without helping
in any way to have it solved.
When you use LibreOffice in a corporate environment, you have to take
care of the investment made by your company and take care also to
protect the software used there. Being in a waiting attitude without
helping things to happen put you at the risk to lose your investment or
lose your software by not sustaining the ecosystem.

Kind regards
Sophie

Good advice of course - but I was unable to do this for 3 months,
because no one considered the bug important enough to work on after it
was reported, so there were no builds to test.

Oh, I do, but I'm a one man shop, my time is limited, and it is
impossible to test every feature - obviously, even the devs who actually
knew about this impending new feature and were working on its
implementation (it was a total surprise to me, and I've been on the
users list since forever and never saw it mentioned) didn't even
discover it - which suggests to me that they really didn't do much
testing at all (copy/paste into fields is kind of *basic* use of fields).

That said, the fact is, this is the first Open/Libreoffice
*regression*/bug that I can remember that has caused this serious of a
problem for so long, with so little consideration by the devs.

But... there is simply no, ZERO, reason to have not provided the ability
to fall back to the old behavior when this very new, very different (to
the old way) feature was implemented, especially considering that the
old behavior is obviously still there, since you can still invoke it
with CTRL-SHIFT-F9. It is even more inexplicable that the devs didn't
*immediately* re-introduce the old behavior at the very least as an
*option*, once this bug was detected.

The other long standing bug (inability to print to Tabloid paper) is
admittedly not a regression, so not relevant to this thread (shouldn't
have brought it up)...

I am not sorry if the following sounds harsh, but...

Suggesting that users should have to pay large sums of money to fix
major REGRESSIVE bugs is tantamount to EXTORTION.

Suggesting this as a way to implement new/wanted FEATURES/ENHANCEMENTS,
on the other hand, is a totally valid and acceptable offer.

Hi Tom,

Hi :slight_smile:
This "blame the user" mentality belongs more properly in the MS and
proprietary world.

I did not get the impression that the user is being blamed here by anyone. Different people are trying to explain again and again how OpenSource projects work, which is quit a bit different to commercial - which I am sure you know, probably even better then me.
   It makes more sense in the OpenSource world but

generally i don't see it in other OpenSource projects (apart from
Evolution) and i'm quite glad of that. It's one of the many reasons i'm
glad to be mostly freed from the MS world.

Tanstaafl seems to be being blamed for at leat 2 contradictory things here.
1. for bringing up his pet bug too often

That is fine, but it just depends a bit on how it is being done - I don't think his way is the most efficient for everyone involved, including himself.

2. for not bringing it up often enough.

His pet bug has a fix but he is refusing to test it.

Werner