How to handle regressions

users
#1

Hi Tanstaalf,

In the thread "LibreOffice Still" you made a very important point, however it has absolutely nothing to do with the main point of the discussion on how to name versions and I just by chance noted it.

You then might have a chance of having it dealt with.

Werner

P.S.
Just a LO user who sometimes reads this list but just about every time get frustrated with it due to the misuse of threads!

On 10/1/2014 12:27, Tanstaafl wrote:> On 10/1/2014 5:06 AM, Charles-H. Schulz

...

> <rant>
> Charles, fyi, in our office, we are stuck on 4.1.6 because of a major
> regression introduced in 4.2 that is still there today.
>
> When our first user reported this after I started updating everyone (at
> about 4.2.4), so I had to revert them all (I'd gotten maybe 20
> workstations updated that weekend).
>
> I kept promising my boss that 'they will have to fix this, it is a
> regression and they treat these seriously' - but here we are, 8 months
> later, and we still cannot upgrade. Because everyone found about about
> this, a few very vocal users in our office took this opportunity to
> start lobbying (again) for replacing Libreoffice with Microsoft Office,
> and it looks like they are going to win this time. I know it is only 70
> seats, and you probably don't really care, but I do. The fact is, I
> cannot even recommend Libreoffice on new clients in good conscience, if
> the response to a very serious regression bug report is along the lines
> of 'well, you can just fix it yourself, it is free open source after all'.

#2

Hi Werner,

This regression has already been discussed here, with essentially the
same result (fix it yourself, pay someone else to fix it, or shut up
about it)...

#3

Hi Tom,

I don't want to go on discussion here the naming of releases.

Tanstaalf comment about the problem of a LO deals with a regression made me worried, so that is what I hoped to get an exchange in this thread.

Werner

Hi :slight_smile:
Right! Amazing! So that is a typical view of a dev!

A broken bit of functionality has absolutely nothing to do with whether LibreOffice is stable or not! At least, not according to a dev's way of thinking.

So, LO should just drop 'stable' from all there releases! No I am not serious, but that is what you are saying in your sentence! Software will always have regressions, at least until someone figures out a testing framework which is perfect to test a UI based software - or has this been invented and I just don't know about it.

#4

Hi,

Hi Werner,

This regression has already been discussed here, with essentially the
same result (fix it yourself, pay someone else to fix it, or shut up
about it)...

That is not Sophie's view of it, see her response in the other thread.

A regression can be discussed here, but it would definitely also need a issue/tracker/bug ticket.

Can you point us to the issue you filed for it, then we could use it as a base for the discussion if LO deals with regressions correctly or not.

Werner

#5

I didn't file it (it was already filed), but it is:

https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76565

#6

Not to mention this one:

https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=65205

#7

@Charles, *,

Tanstaafl wrote

Hi,

Hi Werner,

This regression has already been discussed here, with essentially the
same result (fix it yourself, pay someone else to fix it, or shut up
about it)...

That is not Sophie's view of it, see her response in the other thread.

A regression can be discussed here, but it would definitely also need a
issue/tracker/bug ticket.

Can you point us to the issue you filed for it, then we could use it as
a base for the discussion if LO deals with regressions correctly or not.

I didn't file it (it was already filed), but it is:

https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76565

Yes, and a patch was already been developed (wef 2014-08-17) and posted to
current 4.4.0alpha0+ builds of master.

Plenty of time to have been verified and then back-ported to 4.3 or even the
final 4.2 build. But neither has been done, which is a responsibility for
affected users to advocate for. Especially corporate and business users that
want the goodies, but then choose not to participate in the QA process. And
those users are somehow surprised when features don't work as expected, or
regressions are introduced.

The user community has responsibility in moving an open source project like
LibreOffice forward by being engaged during all development cycles. Test and
test often, and provide feedback in the correct channel--the project
Bugzilla and secondly these mail-list forums.

Regards the Still, and Fresh, and Pre-release, and master development
builds--not that complicated and necessary in a timed release development
project that LibreOffice adopted when formed. You'll note that the project
moves otherwise functional builds to legacy--End of Life--status shortly
after final project build. The current Still branch 4.2 will move to that
category next month!

The nuance folks miss is that development effort and willingness/capability
to correct issues is primarily out on the master branch. Regressions ARE
very important, but are best corrected where/when they are being
introduced--to do that requires engagement.

Stuart

#8

Have you tested the daily build which included the patch committed on 2014-8-17?

Werner

#9

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the suggestions, but I assure you, I have had many, many
conversations with him about this over these past 15 years I've been
managing his systems.

#10

Hi :slight_smile:
In your meeting with the boss it might well be worth pointing out that a
lot of other companies had to buy MS Office 2010 just a year or so ago and
that most of those are now finding that they already have to buy 2013 or
365. That by delaying a purchase of MS Office for so many years or even
just months you have positioned the company to be ahead of the competition
AND saved it x (and delayed on spending x again).

Regard from
Tom :slight_smile:

#11

Hi :slight_smile:
Again the main point that Taanstafl was making is ignored.

He was not saying "you must fix my bug". That has already been covered in
previous threads and previous bug-reports.

All he was saying was there was at least 1 example of a bug that was
introduced in "Fresh" (well introduced in "Still" back when that was
"Fresh"). Common sense, or experience with writing code suggests that it's
inevitably going to be the case. "You can't make an omelette without
breaking eggs".

Trying to assert that eggs haven't been broken seems ridiculous. Why not
just admit it! Point out the omelette, not the broken eggs!! Especially
don't try to claim the eggs haven't been broken! Just point out that we
have more eggs in the fridge and now we have an omelette too.

Maybe we should rename "Still" to "Eggs" and change "Fresh" to "Omelette".
Both have advantages. trying to say that "Omelette" is really unbroken
eggs seems daft to me.

Anyone else lost yet?
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#12

I would not categorize that as a regression for LO, it existed in OO assuming the comments are correct.

I also find the exchange not efficient - why can't reporters and persons commenting stick to facts, keep personal attacks out of it.

The OP (Charles) thinks it is easy to fix but comment 13 on the OO ticket seems not to come to that conclusion. He has 50 seats of LO, has he maybe considered contacting a LO support company and tried to get a quote on how much it would cost to fix this 'showstopper' (maybe it would be less then a 50 seat license for this other product).

Werner

#13

@Charles, *,

Tanstaafl wrote

Not to mention this one:

https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=65205

fdo#65205 - Print Component fails to recognize 'Tabloid' as 11x17, uses
Letter instead

Yes, please don't mention that one as it is NOT a regression. It has never
been correct, i.e. inherited from OOo, but that doesn't mean it is not
important.

Stuart

#14

All he was saying was there was at least 1 example of a bug that was
introduced in "Fresh"

How many more would you like to know :slight_smile:
It's always been that new versions come with new bugs.
That's the big advantage (?) of open source: it keeps you sharp/awake,
since you know the bugs you are used to, may disappear and new - but
which - come in their place :slight_smile:

Now the situation with LibreOffice is that there is only one way ahead
out of the old mess: cleaning up, modernising and the whole shit more.
Thus what the devs are working on.
And yes, that brings more new bugs, for removing old bugs and working
our way to the future.

It encourages me that so many people file bugs. Many of them duplicates
(i.e. already known in BugZilla), many basically user problems (people
would have been better of asking here first) and also many that I would
consider as tiny bugs, little UI improvements and so forth. Oh yes: and
the nasty ones :\
I'm also glad to see there's many people helping in QA with clarifying
the bugs etc usw. Great. And we can really handle more of those people :wink:

Now of course it's nasty that Taanstafls bug isn't yet fixed. Maybe
peoples comments become a bit unfriendly when having to explain again
and again how solving issues works. And how not.
And of course Taanstafl would love to see the bug fixed and gets annoyed
too.
Both are of little help, I expect.
There are bugs that annoy me too. And some I could even help by finding
that extra hour (or two) extra to do some little testing, scripting,
digging.. Only that extra extra...

Being friendly, helping wherever you can, and asking attention in a
positive way for an issue (clear test case or bibisecting works better
then complaining).. Ah well.

Sorry I can't help any further here at the moment.

Maybe we should rename "Still" to "Eggs" and change "Fresh" to "Omelette".
Both have advantages. trying to say that "Omelette" is really unbroken
eggs seems daft to me.

You know I am in favour of keeping all our great ideas for new names
with us for the next period and focus on better explanation (website).
But I do like this one :slight_smile: Thanks,

Cor

#15

I don't think it was ignored (see the issue), it was just made in the wrong thread.

The rest doesn't advance us, does it?

Werner

#16

...

Now of course it's nasty that Taanstafls bug isn't yet fixed.

According to the issue there is a patch and it has been committed some time ago and should be in daily builds. BUT has the patch fixed the problem - who knows!

Werner

#17

Which again is ill-informed, because there is no principle difference
between Still and Fresh. But thanks, no need to repeat all this :slight_smile:

#18

Irrelevant. I cannot install 'Daily builds' on 60+ PCs.

The bug was filed in March. It took 5 MONTHS to get the patch
implemented, and as has been pointed out, it is still not backported.

To the one who suggested that it is on us users to 'prod the devs to do
the back-porting'... seriously? Really? PLONK

#19

I'm a steak guy, so I prefer:

'Still' > Sirloin
'Fresh' > Tenderloin (or chopped, depending on whether or not you use
some critical feature that is currently broken)...

#20

I didn't file it (it was already filed), but it is:

https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76565

Have you tested the daily build which included the patch committed on
2014-8-17?

Irrelevant.

???
What you are responsible for 60+ PC's and you are not willing to test on a test PC a potential fix to a problem which is serious to you?

Sorry I don't understand you.

  I cannot install 'Daily builds' on 60+ PCs.

The bug was filed in March. It took 5 MONTHS to get the patch
implemented, and as has been pointed out, it is still not backported.

Agreed, would be nicer if it took less time - but this is software and that problem of time has nothing to do with OpenSource, the same problem exists with Commercial software.

To the one who suggested that it is on us users to 'prod the devs to do
the back-porting'... seriously? Really? PLONK

I guess that is your reaction to someone not agreeing with you, or did I use incorrect language I wasn't aware off as English is not my first language.

Werner