HOWTO change all-user default file formats (Windows), for LOo3.5?

users
#1

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the quick reply. I probably wasn't clear enough about the goal being that any users added to the machines (post facto) would get MS
default formats without doing (knowing how to do) anything. (I was recently excoriated by a client who had difficulty because her customers couldn't open the .odt's LOo gave her....)

Thanks again,
ultra

#2

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the quick reply. I probably wasn't clear enough about the goal being that any users added to the machines (post facto) would get MS
default formats without doing (knowing how to do) anything. (I was recently excoriated by a client who had difficulty because her customers couldn't open the .odt's LOo gave her....)

Thanks again,
ultra

I believe during the install you can select "Make default for MS formats" on Windows. I am not sure that this changes the default Save format.

#3

It is somewhere in the options but you must not do that. Always edit your documents in the native ODF format (odt, ods, odp etc) in order to get most of the software and the best conversion results.
Then you call menu:File>Send>"Document As PDF" and everybody will be able to read an exact virtual print of your document since everybody has some PDF reading software on any computer platform.

*If and only if* you need to co-edit some document with users of Microsoft Office you call menu:File>Send>"Document AS MS ..." which keeps your ODF document while attaching a MS version to an email.
Next time you get mailed the next version of some MS file open that file and save your copy in native ODF in your own working directory.
In this scenario you have to strictly avoid the new OOXML document formats (docx, xlsx and pptx). LibreOffice stores well formed documents in the older doc/xls/ppt formats while these formats are fully supported by MS office. The conversion to doc/xls/ppt works best when it is done in one go. Working in foreign file formats (saving as doc every few minutes) may cumulate conversion flaws.

Hope this helps.

#4

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
Good point.  Definitely LibreOffice can be set as the default app for opening MS formats.  I had forgotten that.  I'm fairly sure LibreOffice stays defaulting to OpenDocument Formats if you start a fresh new document.  Most office workers i've ever known never do that, they open an existing document and delete everything and then use that (ie a really bad habit but for once something that plays in your favour). 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#5

I think the problem is the users do not understand "Save As" will allow them to save in different format. Thus the problem of file default file settings for LO with some users. I have worked with people who have never understood what "Save As" does in any program not just LO. Thus they have no idea that are different file formats for the same type of file (document, photo, video, audio, etc.). Thus setting LO (or any other application) to a preferred setting for these users must done even if it is not the best practice.

#6

Hi :slight_smile:
+1

Recently one of my users thought that if he opened a Pdf in Adobe and then sent the file to anyone else they would see it in Adobe too.  He was very worried about using Foxit because he wanted people to still be able to see it in Adobe.  I tried showing him the file on an Ubuntu machine so he could see it but of course he was terrified of letting me know where his Adobe file was in case that meant he then wouldn't be able to see it in Adobe or Foxit!  He is one of the most technically astute users here.  Maybe he was just having a bad-hair day or something.  It's really difficult to anticipate people's fears sometimes.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#7

Am 11.05.2012 16:44, Jay Lozier wrote:

I think the problem is the users do not understand "Save As" will allow
them to save in different format. Thus the problem of file default file
settings for LO with some users. I have worked with people who have
never understood what "Save As" does in any program not just LO. Thus
they have no idea that are different file formats for the same type of
file (document, photo, video, audio, etc.). Thus setting LO (or any
other application) to a preferred setting for these users must done even
if it is not the best practice.

Yep, they enter URLs into the google mask and send pictures embedded in Word documents. No reason to bother. Just leave them alone with some other job which does not require fundamental IT skills.
This is the year 2012.

#8

Hi :slight_smile:
+1

Recently one of my users thought that if he opened a Pdf in Adobe and then sent the file to anyone else they would see it in Adobe too. He was very worried about using Foxit because he wanted people to still be able to see it in Adobe. I tried showing him the file on an Ubuntu machine so he could see it but of course he was terrified of letting me know where his Adobe file was in case that meant he then wouldn't be able to see it in Adobe or Foxit! He is one of the most technically astute users here. Maybe he was just having a bad-hair day or something. It's really difficult to anticipate people's fears sometimes.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Ouch, ouch, ouch.

#9

Am 11.05.2012 19:59, Doug wrote:

I know this is not a popular opinion with certain folks, but I believe
you should save ALL documents in either .doc or .rtf format. Why keep
files in a
format most people can't read? Just because Microsoft invented it is no
reason not to use it. You use their fonts, don't you?

--doug

Believe what you want. It is a technical issue.

#10

Andreas,

Am 11.05.2012 19:59, Doug wrote:

I know this is not a popular opinion with certain folks, but I believe
you should save ALL documents in either .doc or .rtf format. Why keep
files in a
format most people can't read? Just because Microsoft invented it is no
reason not to use it. You use their fonts, don't you?

--doug

Believe what you want. It is a technical issue.

The ideal answer is for everyone to agree on and support standard, non-proprietary formats for all document types and not use proprietary formats. Unfortunately, in the US at least, this is not true with office documents - MSO formats are defacto standard for US businesses and most government agencies. So we must to use a variety of methods to adapt to the situation. I prefer to use ODF formats as my normal format for all office documents and convert to an MSO format when needed.

The problem is that there are users with a wide variety of skill levels and willingness to learn and this creates its own problems. I know people who in practical terms computer illiterate even though they use computers regularly. Depending on the situation one may need to use a sub-optimal solution to get work done while trying to implement the technically correct solution.

I understand the legitimate technical issues that you are raising but unfortunately the problem is with the ultimate end user. The real solution is social not technical of training and education. My observation is there are significant number of users who will resist doing the technically correct procedure because they believe it is extremely difficult even when it very simple. I know people will not learn to use Powerpoint or Impress to make a slide show or presentation; I actually have prepared presentations for them. And I am not very proficient with either Powerpoint or Impress because I rarely use it for my own projects or work (more accurately almost never use it for work or personal projects).

#11

Hi :slight_smile:
Both Doc and Rtf rely on a single company to maintain them.  That company is trying to force people to use the newer formats.  How long do you think they will continue to support their older formats?

Staying with Doc and Rtf is only a short-term solution.  In a few years we will see people having trouble with documents that are still in that format.  Of course the users will be blamed for not having bought and updated their documents.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#12

Hi again :slight_smile:
Unless, of course, those documents were created with 3rd party apps such as LibreOffice.  All the ones created using MS Office use a quirky implementation of the format and the quirks are different for each version of MS Office.

I wonder if the newer version of MSO will move to yet another format or are they going to save such a move for the MSO after that. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#13

Am 11.05.2012 20:45, Jay Lozier wrote:

I understand the legitimate technical issues that you are raising but
unfortunately the problem is with the ultimate end user. The real
solution is social not technical of training and education. My
observation is there are significant number of users who will resist
doing the technically correct procedure because they believe it is
extremely difficult even when it very simple. I know people will not
learn to use Powerpoint or Impress to make a slide show or presentation;
I actually have prepared presentations for them. And I am not very
proficient with either Powerpoint or Impress because I rarely use it for
my own projects or work (more accurately almost never use it for work or
personal projects).

So these people have a problem which prevents them from using software in general.
This is what I try to tell them all the time: Just get a copy of MS Office and do what you are supposed to do. Pay and shut up. This is not replacement for any other vendor's software. In particular it is not a social project to save you the MS license fee.
Nough said.

#14

Hi again :slight_smile:
Unless, of course, those documents were created with 3rd party apps such as LibreOffice. All the ones created using MS Office use a quirky implementation of the format and the quirks are different for each version of MS Office.

I wonder if the newer version of MSO will move to yet another format or are they going to save such a move for the MSO after that. Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

I saw an article that the new version of MSO will have full support of ODF formats. I have not seen any indication that support will be backported to any previous versions.

#15

from a practical standpoint i don't see anything wrong with this. Of course
depending on how complex your files are. If it's just a secretary writing
memos and posters then go ahead as long as you understand what you're doing
and the limitations of it. But as the person setting up their tech you
really have to have a least a middling idea of why you're doing it.

#16

From: Jay Lozier <jslozier@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: HOWTO change all-user default file formats (Windows), for LOo3.5?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Friday, May 11, 2012, 11:45 AM
Andreas,

> Am 11.05.2012 19:59, Doug wrote:
>>>
>> I know this is not a popular opinion with certain
folks, but I believe
>> you should save ALL documents in either .doc or
.rtf format. Why keep
>> files in a
>> format most people can't read? Just because
Microsoft invented it is no
>> reason not to use it. You use their fonts, don't
you?
>>
>> --doug
>>
>>
>
> Believe what you want. It is a technical issue.
>
>
The ideal answer is for everyone to agree on and support
standard, non-proprietary formats for all document types and
not use proprietary formats. Unfortunately, in the US at
least, this is not true with office documents - MSO formats
are defacto standard for US businesses and most government
agencies. So we must to use a variety of methods to adapt to
the situation. [...]

Exactly. MS gets to set standards because of its market dominance,
and non-IT/non-geek types, many of whom are much too busy with other
things to learn to do anything differently than before or simply want everything "their way" (i.e. the way MS has gotten them to think of as their way) expect everything to "work that way" and if you tell them otherwise at best they're prone to impatience and at worst they'll decide
the software you recommended (and hence your expertise) is "no good," irrespective of the fact that they're asking you for help.

Note that one of the reasons for Ubuntu's success is the "Ubuntu just works" goal/strategy. For LOo, "it just works" would mean letting users
chose whatever they prefer, preferably with install defaults that won't
cause them aggravation when they try to work with most other Office suite
users, i.e. MSO users.

Stack all the technical refinements you want against that aggravation, and unless those refinements are both significant and apparent to non-technical users you'll still have an uphill battle even if you're competing as $free: aggravation is part of the net cost, and whether
people think of it in those terms explicitly, most people at least feel it.

As many know, Steve Jobs was not a technical genius, but what he did get
right (that most techie-types got wrong) was understanding that the key to market success (whether financial or user base) is making user experience appealing rather than frustrating. Say "Office suite" and most people are going to expect relatively automatic/transparent interoperability with the "Office suite" they know, without having to learn about "details" like .odt. .doc/.xls/.ppt are effectively like apples or rocks or other parts of the natural world. That's the prospective user-base we have, as opposed to whatever user-base we might prefer.

[...] I prefer to use ODF formats as my normal
format for all office documents and convert to an MSO format
when needed.

The problem is that there are users with a wide variety of
skill levels and willingness to learn and this creates its
own problems. I know people who in practical terms computer
illiterate even though they use computers regularly.
Depending on the situation one may need to use a sub-optimal
solution to get work done while trying to implement the
technically correct solution.

I understand the legitimate technical issues that you are
raising but unfortunately the problem is with the ultimate
end user. The real solution is  social not technical of
training and education. My observation is there are
significant number of users who will resist doing the
technically correct procedure because they believe it is
extremely difficult even when it very simple. I know people
will not learn to use Powerpoint or Impress to make a slide
show or presentation; I actually have prepared presentations
for them. And I am not very proficient with either
Powerpoint or Impress because I rarely use it for my own
projects or work (more accurately almost never use it for
work or personal projects).

Many don't want to know about more than one way of doing things (when you try to show them.) I suspect that some are a bit confused even with the way the "know" but have learned that if they just do the same thing they get the needed result that lets them get by.

Nonetheless, when we do work for them that we want them to value, it has to be useful to them on their terms.

-- Jay Lozier
jslozier@gmail.com

ultra