LibreLogo tutorial

This first section looks good as is;
          but does have a few grammatical errors which I'll point out in [
]s.

       In spite of what some computer users say or do, I'll continue to
stick with proper grammar -
          after a period in a sentence there should be 2 spaces even though
these machines default to only 1;
          and double quotes are for conversations - single quotes - or in
your Norwegian << >> - would be used for empasis, et.al.

       And BTW - looks as if you've spent a lot of time creating a very
good site & program,

How to open LibreLogo in LibreOffice

The great majority who use LibreOffice do not know there is a Logo variant
in Writer. There are no direct links to LibreLogo on the menus. The only
way, I think, is to open a new text document. In the main menu at the top
of the page, press the View → Toolbars → Logo. This will open the
LibreLogo toolbar. This toolbar contains some buttons to control the
turtle and a command line where you can enter commands. Press on one of the
buttons to bring up the turtle.

   ['great' is superfluous ...

      'I think' is superfluous; you're the writer therefore this can either
be left out or changed to possibly or probably ...

         'turtle' ...

            command line to enter commands.]
[image: vise film]
The Buttons on the Menubar

Every time you press on buttons Backward and Forward the turtle will be
moved 10 pixels backwards or forwards. Buttons Right and Left will turn
the turtle 15º clockwise or counter-clockwise. Button Home moves the
turtle to the starting point in the middle of the page with the head
upwards. Clear screen will remove all drawings from the page. Start and
Stop are used to start and stop the execution of the program. The command
line is used for entering commands, one line at a time. The button to the
right of the command line is used to configure all commands with large
letters and to translate the program into other languages. This is not
used in this overview.

   [Each time you press on any button - ...

      will move ...

         backward or forward ...]

If the purpose is to learn programming, only the command line and buttons
to clear the screen and put the turtle back is helpful. The others buttons
is used to create shapes without programming.

   [are helpful. The other buttons are]

anne-ology wrote:

           after a period in a sentence there should be 2 spaces even though
these machines default to only 1;

I gather that's mostly a throwback to the days of typewriters and monospace fonts, where the extra space made it easier to read. Some style guides still suggest double spaces, others don't, some even use some other spacing, e.g. 1.5 size space rather than 2. So it depends which publisher's guide you go by. In HTML, putting several spaces still only displays a single space anyway, unless you specifically add non-breaking spaces.

Mark.

Den 05.12.2015 01:58, anne-ology skreiv:

        This first section looks good as is;
           but does have a few grammatical errors which I'll point out in [
]s.

        In spite of what some computer users say or do, I'll continue to
stick with proper grammar -

I agree. But I know too little about English grammar and typographic rules

           after a period in a sentence there should be 2 spaces even though
these machines default to only 1;

In HTML double or more spaces becomes a single space. See Mark's reply to this list. It is a lot of work to add the code '&nbsp;' behind every period.

           and double quotes are for conversations - single quotes - or in
your Norwegian << >> - would be used for empasis, et.al.

I'll try to remember this.

        And BTW - looks as if you've spent a lot of time creating a very
good site & program,

Thank you.
Brian Barker (many thanks to him) has proofread the whole site and sent it to me private.
I will use his suggestions together with yours.
It will take some time to code it as I prefer hand coding.

Perhaps because the settings of of my e-mail reader I did not see the film. Was displayed as '[Image: display film]'.

Kolbjørn

I'd like to comment on the 2 typographic rules mentioned for English.

(1) Many typographers believe that there should not be 2 spaces after the period at the end of a sentence. See
http://audilab.bme.mcgill.ca/~funnell/InforMed/Bacon/WP/space.html

(2) I don't think it's correct to say that double quotes are used for one thing and single quotes for another. The rule that I'm familiar with is that you consistently use whichever you prefer (or whichever your publisher requires) and then switch to the other style if they're nested. For example, you might write 'He said "She said 'I did it'"'.

- Robert

Hi Kolbjoern,

I've had a look at your tutorial. You mention LO 4.2 and updates to
5.0. I thought I'd have a look on my machine but I failed at the first
go.

I can find no trace of a Logo Toolbar under View/Toolbars. The LO
Writer manual installed on my computer (where I'm using LO 4.2.8.2)
gives the same info when searched for 'logo':

"The LibreLogo toolbar (View » Toolbars » Logo)...."

Strangely though, when I look at the section in the same manual which
describes the toolbars, I don't see any reference to a logo toolbar.

Further investigation shows the existence in Ubuntu of a separate
package "libreoffice-librelogo" which was not pre-installed in the
default distribution.

So it may well be that many other users of LO do not have Logo available
in a default installation.

Philip

Is Logo and help for Logo missing in all or many Linux distributions?
If so, perhaps someone will write a sequence telling how to install it?

I do not know when LibreLogo was included in LO. Perhaps some of the developers knows more about this? I discovered it in version 4.0 or 4.1 for Windows.

Kolbjørn

Den 05.12.2015 16:02, Philip Jackson skreiv:

I don't have LibreLogo in my Windows installation, but I might have used the "custom" install option and chosen not to install it. Anyway, if it's not already installed on Windows:
- From Windows' Control Panel, open "Programs and Features".
- Find "LibreOffice" (not the LibreOffice Help Pack).
- Right-click it and select "Change".
- In the installation wizard, when given the choice to "modify", "repair" or "remove" the application, select "Modify" and click "Next".
- Click the "+" next to "Optional Components" to expand the list.
- Click the icon next to "LibreLogo" and select "This feature will be installed..."
- Click "Next" and continue through the wizard to complete installation.

Those instructions are for the Windows installer. For Linux, there may be a separate package to install as Philip described. The need for that (and the exact name of such a package) might depend on which Linux distribution is installed, and whether LibreOffice was installed from the distribution's repository or downloaded from libreoffice.org.

Mark.

Thanks.
May I add this to the tutorial?

Kolbjørn

Den 06.12.2015 12:54, libreoffice-ml.mbourne@spamgourmet.com skreiv:

I have uploaded "version 2" of the LibreLogo tutorial.
Thanks to Bran Barker and anne-ology for proofreading and others for commenting.
I have learned a lot of typography and some English. :slight_smile:

Kolbjørn

Hi :slight_smile:
In emails i tend to use double-quotes, ", when i am quoting someone or
something and i use single-quotes, ', for sarcasm or when reality is
radically different or even opposite to theory or common belief.

For example, when i say something 'should' work i usually mean that it
probably will work but that it wouldn't be a huge surprise if it
doesn't. Sometimes i mean that we often get told that it does work
but that many of us either struggle with it or find that it doesn't
work - when i mean this i usually explain what i really mean.
I hadn't thought about how other people use them. Mostly i find that
people don't follow any rules and even mix and match within even a
single document they wrote. I've even seen people use single quotes
at the start of a quote and end it with a double quote, and vice-versa
- again within a single document.

I really like the Norwegians use of << but i find those sorts of marks
quite bulky and potentially confusing as possibly being a bit of
coding - although context quickly solves that :slight_smile:

I agree with Anne-ology about double-spaces after a full-stop making
it easier to skim-read. I have a feeling it should be only a little
more than a single space, even a space and a half-space might be too
much, but it's difficult to get that sort of finesse these days. A
single space feels wrong to me. So i use a double-space because it's
the easiest way to get as comfortable a layout as i reasonably can.

A lot of writing i've seen outside of this mailing list uses single
spaces or even no spaces at all after full-stops and that sort of
thing often results in commas having more emphasis than full-stops,
especially when people use double-spaces after commas or when "full
justify" messes up spacing.

There is so much confusion about all this that i've seen a lot of
people out there starting a new paragraph for every sentence. Some
people nowadays seem to do that even when the sentences follow on from
each other and don't add anything new. Perhaps it's people thinking
in bullet-points but then getting a bit carried away.

Personally i have even started using double or triple gaps between
paragraphs that are about a totally different topic. On the rare
occasion i do in-line replies (rather than top-posting) i try to
create an extra gap between my response and the bit i am responding
too. Emails tend to get so mangled that it's sometimes difficult to
figure out who said what. Hopefully you can see examples of my
double-gaps between the section about single and double quotes and the
section where i agree with Anne-ology about double-spaces after
full-stops, then again before the beginning of this paragraph.

With the prevalence of Microsoft Word, standards seem to have
plummeted. Now that almost anyone can produced printed documents the
expertise, knowledge and skills of dedicated typists and typesetters
has been lost or ignored or thrown out. For a time various companies
tried to enforce "in-house styles" or branding guidelines. Word often
seems to make that difficult even if companies take the time and
trouble to make proper templates and set-up their own styles.

One of the many reasons i prefer Writer is because the resulting
documents look much more consistent and more professional than the
results i have seen from people using Word. It takes much less effort
to look good - and it's so much easier to have an "in-house style".

I think the old rules that don't work so well with modern computer
systems are too out-dated. Newer rules seem clumsy or less "well
thought out" or difficult to implement. I think it's time for us to
find new rules that do work for us. In doing so i think it's well
worth noticing what the old rules were trying to do and what problems
they were trying to overcome. That might help us figure out how to
improve our own personal rules and styles, where to stick with current
fashions and where it might be better to start introducing our own
personal styles or flair.

Few people these days follow the rules, even rules they themselves
set, so why should we? I think old rules and copying ideas from each
other can help us develop new ways. Some wont work at first but some
might help us make documents that are easier to read and that look
better.

Everyone on this mailing list seems to 'naturally' have a good style.
MUCH better than i have seen out there in the business world and in
charities in England. The standard of English is much higher here
too, especially from people who seem to think they are not much good
at writing English. Sometimes odd little mistakes or typos make
things interesting and "give food for thought" but always they are
better than much of what i hear from English people outside of this
mailing list.
Regards to all from
Tom :slight_smile:

I agree in that typography is important. But there are some differences from language to language.

One common problem is that the keyboard in fact does not have the double quotation mark. The Shift 2 key combination is (in Norwegian at least) the symbol for inches and nothing else. 50" TV.
If you use the " in Writer, it becomes « in the start of the quotation and » in the end of it. If I want to write the inch symbol I have to undo the printing (Ctrl Z).

Another common problem is that two spaces after full stop is boring in HTML coding. If I use more than one space somewhere in the text is printed as a single space. To get double spaces I have to add "&nbsp;": <p>Period. &nbsp;Full stop</p>. Therefore, I think, you hardly find a web side using double spacing in a text.

More than one line (gap) between paragraphs is easier.

You prefer Writer. So do I and the local printing works we are using.

And yes, there is a difference writing e-mails and books.

And I agree with you in that this list is fantastic. I am not qualified to say anything about the quality of English used here, but the helpers who is proofreading my documents found lots of errors in my English. Some misunderstandings, some grammatical errors, misprints, and other errors. better ways to say it. (The lover part -> the lower part or count -> count). And of course often better wordings.

Kolbjørn

Den 06.12.2015 15:51, Tom Davies skreiv:

Hi :slight_smile:
Yes, i agree that some things are not so easy to do in other languages
or on other keyboards so that is another good reason for people to
adapt any rules to fit with whatever is easier imo. Rules should
really be just "guidelines" imo.

As for html and anything else that corrupts layout a bit, again there
are clearly limits on how much extra work is worth putting in just to
try to get closer to rules when there are so many people out there who
either ignore the rules or work to a different rule-book anyway. I
sometimes use search&replace to make sure that there is a "&nbsp;"
between full-stops, and exclamation marks, and questions marks and so
on. I only do that if i'm editing the html in a text-editor, and only
if i have time, and only if i remember, and only if i can be bothered
= so i don't do it often either! :wink: Double-spaces in my coding help
me edit the code later, but i don't always put them in there anyway.
I think it's important for people to have their own style. Rules are
only useful nowadays if people are allowed to ignore them because it
so often happens that rules that work well in one place really don't
help at all, or are even a severe and useless hindrance in another =
as you point out.

Many people who have been brought up to speak English and use it all
the time and probably don't know any other language still make a lot
more mistakes with it than i've seen on this mailing list. Everyone
makes mistakes. Often it's the harshest critics who make the most
appalling mistakes themselves - sometimes it's because they struggle
to understand things however carefully it's been written. My emails
are far from perfect. I try not to but i often make mistakes.

It is wise to get someone to proof-read documentation. It's what the
Documentation Team here do, even the professional or experienced or
just talented writers in there. Even if it is full of errors people
still find it useful so it's worth publishing even if you are certain
it's full of errors. People are likely to point out errors anyway,
which helps the writer edit it to be better even though the way most
people criticise is quite hurtful. Asking people here to proof-read
was brilliant and nicely done! :))

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

I'd like to comment on the 2 typographic rules mentioned for English.

(1) Many typographers believe that there should not be 2 spaces after the period at the end of a sentence. See
http://audilab.bme.mcgill.ca/~funnell/InforMed/Bacon/WP/space.html

frankly most of these 'rules' are basically arbitrary, that is, not driven by any logical necessity and open to varying aesthetic preferences.

(it's fun reading the history of the prohibition against using 'they' as a gender-neutral form as in "if anyone parks their car in the lot, _they_ should check with security." wikipedia (sit venia verbo!) has a good piece on the "singular 'they'". or the nonsense about having to say, "it is I" -- guess anyone can write a grammar book, and they used to!)

anyway I don't insert two spaces - waste of space (unless required by editors, etc.).

(2) I don't think it's correct to say that double quotes are used for one thing and single quotes for another. The rule that I'm familiar with is that you consistently use whichever you prefer (or whichever your publisher requires) and then switch to the other style if they're nested. For example, you might write 'He said "She said 'I did it'"'.

I agree and note only that in one area I'm acquainted with the singular quote is often used to designate a technical term.

f.

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
That was really well said. Very succinct! :slight_smile:
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

No problem. Feel free to adapt it if necessary to fit with your style, or clarify anything you think should be clearer.

Mark.

Kolbjørn Stuestøl wrote:

Den 10.12.2015 22:38, libreoffice-ml.mbourne@spamgourmet.com skreiv:

No problem. Feel free to adapt it if necessary to fit with your style, or clarify anything you think should be clearer.

Thank you.
I will incorporate it when I get some time to do it.
Kolbjørn