Localization page on the site

l10n
#1

Hi,

For information, I've reverted again (just the 4th time) information concerning localization to what they should be: information about localization.

Could it be possible now that this page, that should be useful for localization teams, stay useful for localization teams and do not contain considerations about marketing, documentation or whatever else.

Localization is a *very important* part of the project, it brings the product UI and Help directly in the language of the user. Could it be possible that the information necessary to the localization of the product stay straightforward for the localizer on the localization page of the site?
It's not about marketing, documentation or site content, it is about localization.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Kind regards
Sophie

#2

Hi Sophie, :slight_smile:

Please do not just revert content without contacting me to discuss it.
I would remind you of the Steering Committee decision to put me in
charge of written content on the site for an interim period.

If you're not happy with that situation, it would probably be best to
take the issue up at the next Steering Committee meeting - I'll almost
certainly be there to present my thoughts on the subject.

But until then, please do respect the committee's decision.

I will be reverting your changes, but am perfectly willing to discuss
the content with you and make any changes that result from our
discussion.

Can we please discuss the page constructively together? Thank you if so. :wink:

David Nelson

#3

Hi David,

Hi Sophie, :slight_smile:

Please do not just revert content without contacting me to discuss it.
I would remind you of the Steering Committee decision to put me in
charge of written content on the site for an interim period.

Remember Sophie is member of SC and SC has right to veto.

Also respect her experience in this area.

ciao
Christian

#4

That doesn't allow you to write wrong things on the page.

For how long have you been localizing our product? What do you know about this work in our project? Why don't you respect the information needed by our teams? Do you think being responsible of product localization is the same as writing a page on a website? Do you think you engage the same skills? the same responsibility?

You have no idea of all that, but instead of trying to understand, you put the staff you think is good for you, and whatever experienced people can say, you don't care.

I've explained numerous time on this list the importance of localization teams, if you don't read or believe what I say, I don't see what is left to discuss, sorry.

Sophie

#5

Hi Christian, Sophie, :slight_smile:

Please remember the Steering Committee decision to give me
responsibility for content on the site for an interim period. We can
perhaps discuss this at the next steering committee meeting?

Meantime, I'll be happy to chat with Sophie on IRC or Skype to talk
about the content.

I do believe firmly in public information and transparency, as the
project does, and the info on the page places the project in a very
positive light, not to mention providing encouraging information to
potential localizers.

Sophie should not be doing this without talking to me. Or do Steering
Committee decisions have no value?

David Nelson

#6

David,

> Hi Sophie, :slight_smile:
>
> Please do not just revert content without contacting me to discuss
> it. I would remind you of the Steering Committee decision to put me
> in charge of written content on the site for an interim period.

That doesn't allow you to write wrong things on the page.

For how long have you been localizing our product? What do you know
about this work in our project? Why don't you respect the information
needed by our teams? Do you think being responsible of product
localization is the same as writing a page on a website? Do you think
you engage the same skills? the same responsibility?

You have no idea of all that, but instead of trying to understand,
you put the staff you think is good for you, and whatever experienced
people can say, you don't care.

I've explained numerous time on this list the importance of
localization teams, if you don't read or believe what I say, I don't
see what is left to discuss, sorry.

Sophie

We are aware of the decision by the Steering Committee, and are as well
aware of the need for discernment, especially when it's about long time
localizers who are supposed to know what they are doing... :slight_smile:

Best,

#7

Hi, :slight_smile:

We are aware of the decision by the Steering Committee, and are as well
aware of the need for discernment, especially when it's about long time
localizers who are supposed to know what they are doing... :slight_smile:

But, Charles, perhaps that kind of peremptory action of undoing a
contributor's work with no attempt whatsoever to discuss the matter in
a rational manner should not be encouraged - not even from an SC
member, if the project's governance is to have any credibility.

Please may I ask that the page be left as I published it, to give
others the chance to read the information and appreciate its merits,
until the next SC meeting, at which time we could discuss the matter
together?

David Nelson

#8

Hi David,

David Nelson wrote (25-01-11 16:53)

Please do not just revert content without contacting me to discuss it.
[...]

How much I appreciate all the good things you do, I would think it is more logic for this page/information, if you make contact with Sophie _before_ publishing, to discuss possible edits.
I think this also better reflects the short discussion you two had yesterday (? iirc).

Kind regards,
Cor

#9

I have asked this question before, and was not able to be pointed to
the bylaw that states that individual SC members have universal veto
rights.
Maybe you can shed some light on this.

IMHO this is meant to be a collaborative process, but we do have
members such as David who have put their heart and soul into this with
some help from a small group of people with the expectation that a
review process will happen shortly.

The reversion without discussion of any well meaning contribution in
my mind is irresponsible whilst building a community.

Mike Wheatland

#10

Hi,

2011.01.25 18:38, David Nelson rašė:

We are aware of the decision by the Steering Committee, and are as well
aware of the need for discernment, especially when it's about long time
localizers who are supposed to know what they are doing... :slight_smile:

But, Charles, perhaps that kind of peremptory action of undoing a
contributor's work with no attempt whatsoever to discuss the matter in
a rational manner should not be encouraged - not even from an SC
member, if the project's governance is to have any credibility.

Please may I ask that the page be left as I published it, to give
others the chance to read the information and appreciate its merits,
until the next SC meeting, at which time we could discuss the matter
together?

I've just read the current version of http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers/ . It's perhaps a bit weird and vague (lots of talk, little info), but on the other hand, I think this page targets those who only want to become localizers, or maybe even have no idea what localization is. For those of us, who already are localizers, I think our wiki would be the right place to put (technical) info and seek for it.

Disclamer: I haven't seen Sophie's version, so this opinion is probably a bit skewed.

Best regards,
Rimas

#11

Regarding this discussion:
I just witnessed some very similar things: on the OOo PR mailing list Oracle
pressing to small changes in the PR statement for the 3.3 release and here
steering committee assignee forcing his rights as far as website content is
concerned, even if it does not correspond to the true needs of what that
page needs to state (as far as I can tell so far).

Are LO and OOo really that different? Will LO/TDF and its formal structure
become constringent like OOo (and Oracle)? I know it is not alarming as this
but... it can happen.

Lp, m.

#12

Hi Sophie, :slight_smile:

I'll be looking at how to rewrite this page over the next few days.
There's information that could go in a dedicated localization section
of the FAQs, for instance. I'll give you a heads-up at that time, and
then I hope you'll agree to a chat on IRC to make sure that the
content is OK from both your viewpoint and mine.

But I do want to remind you of the SC decision to make me responsible
for the libreoffice.org site content for an interim period - which you
yourself voted in favor of, IIRC. As such, it is not your domain to
make arbitrarily remove site content, without even attempting to
consult me, and to consign my hard work to the garbage can and then
instruct me that I'm not to make any further changes. I put in hard
work and thought writing that content, and my work deserves more
respect.

For me, the premise that you were a long-standing OOo community member
and are now an SC member does not give you the right to lay down the
law in the LibreOffice community. What's more, this recurring notion
that old OOo people somehow have precedence over other LibreOffice
contributors is an undesirable mindset. May I please remind you again
that the community bylaws lay down the principle of equality of
membership within the community?

May I also put forward a guiding principle that has been stated to me
by other SC members, namely, "Those that do the work get to influence
the direction of that work"? In my case, I put a lot of work into the
website, and it was a voted SC decision to give me a remit to manage
the site content.

The website cannot be managed properly if people just jump in
arbitrarily and make sweeping changes without discussing with me
first.

Could you also please bear in mind that I've been working on other
content on the site in preparation for the release, and that I only
have 24 hours in my day, like everyone else?

Like I said above, I'll contact you in a few days, and - as I've
previously invited you to do - we can work together to figure out
content for the localizers page in the "Get Involved" section of the
site.

HTH and TIA.

David Nelson

#13

Þann þri 25.jan 2011 19:54, skrifaði Rimas Kudelis:

Hi,

2011.01.25 18:38, David Nelson rašė:

We are aware of the decision by the Steering Committee,
and are as well
aware of the need for discernment, especially when it's
about long time
localizers who are supposed to know what they are
doing... :slight_smile:

But, Charles, perhaps that kind of peremptory action of
undoing a
contributor's work with no attempt whatsoever to discuss
the matter in
a rational manner should not be encouraged - not even from
an SC
member, if the project's governance is to have any
credibility.

Please may I ask that the page be left as I published it,
to give
others the chance to read the information and appreciate
its merits,
until the next SC meeting, at which time we could discuss
the matter
together?

I've just read the current version of
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers/ . It's
perhaps a bit weird and vague (lots of talk, little info),
but on the other hand, I think this page targets those who
only want to become localizers, or maybe even have no idea
what localization is. For those of us, who already are
localizers, I think our wiki would be the right place to put
(technical) info and seek for it.

Disclamer: I haven't seen Sophie's version, so this opinion
is probably a bit skewed.

Best regards,
Rimas

Agree with Rimas, maybe it's the layout or the general presentation but I'm not sure if the main points get through. And the overall language gives me the feeling that I got lost on the web; "Wait, is this l10n or what...?".
A bit wague, silky tone that gives the creeps to the kind of people I know who are doing l10n work. Maybe it can bring a new type of clients...

For example, IMHO the "Only in marketing..." paragraph is either displaced or simply unnecessary in this context. And maybe the tools mentioned in the second paragraph should be emphasized by presenting them in a table along with a bit more info.

But I think David may have a point; this page is a sort of a broad overview on reasons and general structure of localisation. And there should be another page (the wiki intro http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:L10n ?) which should be more of a howto.

Still I think it needs more "What can you do ?" kind of approach.

Disclamer #1: I haven't seen Sophie's version, so this opinion is only about the page as-is-now.
Disclamer #2: I'm not a native english speaker, so there may be subtilities in the text I simply don't get.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli

#14

Hi,

2011.01.25 21:54, Rimas Kudelis rašė:

2011.01.25 18:38, David Nelson rašė:

We are aware of the decision by the Steering Committee, and are as well
aware of the need for discernment, especially when it's about long time
localizers who are supposed to know what they are doing... :slight_smile:

But, Charles, perhaps that kind of peremptory action of undoing a
contributor's work with no attempt whatsoever to discuss the matter in
a rational manner should not be encouraged - not even from an SC
member, if the project's governance is to have any credibility.

Please may I ask that the page be left as I published it, to give
others the chance to read the information and appreciate its merits,
until the next SC meeting, at which time we could discuss the matter
together?

I've just read the current version of http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers/ . It's perhaps a bit weird and vague (lots of talk, little info), but on the other hand, I think this page targets those who only want to become localizers, or maybe even have no idea what localization is. For those of us, who already are localizers, I think our wiki would be the right place to put (technical) info and seek for it.

Disclamer: I haven't seen Sophie's version, so this opinion is probably a bit skewed.

I've just read Sophie's version of the page on http://pastie.org/1500466 . Basically, I think both pages convey the same ideas, but while I think Nelson's version has a bit more info, it allso seems to have a much lower signal/noise ratio. Indeed, I think that this particular page could be shortened at least twice, without losing much (any?) important information.

Rimas

#15

Hi Sophie, l10n people, :slight_smile:

I've just posted a revised draft of the Localizers page [1] that
hopefully takes account of the comments on the previous draft.

While reading, please remember that this information primarily targets
newcomers to the project, who may have little or no previous knowledge
of localization within an OS project, or the LibreOffice project's
policies in that respect.

But I have cut-out some text that can usefully go in a dedicated
localization FAQ on the site. (If the rest of the page has your basic
approval then we can create the said FAQ and add a link to it in the
page.)

However, all the key links needed by existing localizers are provided
in list form at the top of the page (please give me a heads-up if I
missed any important ones).

To those of you who may feel that the content I've written is "text,
text, text", please remember that the entire site needs the loving
attention of people from the Design team, as regards providing
graphics, prettying-up the presentation with nice text boxes, etc.
Then it will all look less boring. So the same goes for this page,
too. What I've done is very much a "version 1.0" of the site, and it's
all up for further development - but at least the site *does exist*
now, which wasn't the case before...

If you want changes to the draft, give me a heads-up and I'll apply
them, or else use your account on the site (or ask me or others for
one) and jump in and have a go yourself. :wink:

HTH.

David Nelson

#16

Hi Jean-Baptiste,

just an assumption, but according to the change mails I get, this is the
latest version of the localizers page:
https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers/?stage=live

David, is this correct?

Cheers,
Christoph

#17

Hi Christoph, :slight_smile:

just an assumption, but according to the change mails I get, this is the
latest version of the localizers page:
https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers/?stage=live

David, is this correct?

Erm, yes.... Why? Is it that bad? :smiley:

Try this then: [1]

[1] https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers

David Nelson

#18

Hi David,

a few notes on the L10n page:

1) I find it a bit awkward that the LibO localization is pushed to the last paragraph, and is preceded by the L10n of documentation, website, and marketing material. IMO, localization of the application should be the first and foremost thing in that list.
2) Is a construction "as regards something" actually used in English? I've never seen or heard such construction before, so it looks to me like someone's imperfect English. IMO, the two occurences of this could be replaced by simply a word "regarding" or something like that.
3) I'm not sure if "the language teams section of our wiki" link is needed, provided that it's one of the pages in the L10n category, which is also linked to from that list. On the other hand though, one link doesn't hurt...

Regards,
Rimas

#19

Hi Rimas, :slight_smile:

1) I find it a bit awkward that the LibO localization is pushed to the last
paragraph, and is preceded by the L10n of documentation, website, and
marketing material. IMO, localization of the application should be the first
and foremost thing in that list.

OK, fixed. Take a look now. :wink:

2) Is a construction "as regards something" actually used in English? I've
never seen or heard such construction before, so it looks to me like
someone's imperfect English. IMO, the two occurences of this could be
replaced by simply a word "regarding" or something like that.

Yes, "as regards something" is fine. I'm happy to have just broadened
your English. :wink:

3) I'm not sure if "the language teams section of our wiki" link is needed,
provided that it's one of the pages in the L10n category, which is also
linked to from that list. On the other hand though, one link doesn't hurt...

It's one of the resource links that Sophie includes in her
introductory email to new localizers, apparently, and was included
from information that she sent me some time ago and that I'd
bookmarked for reference when I was drafting the page. :wink:

David Nelson

#20

Hi David!

2011.01.29 12:21, David Nelson rašė:

1) I find it a bit awkward that the LibO localization is pushed to the last
paragraph, and is preceded by the L10n of documentation, website, and
marketing material. IMO, localization of the application should be the first
and foremost thing in that list.

OK, fixed. Take a look now. :wink:

Looks better, you missed the fact that "NL teams" abbreviation now appears before it's being explained. :slight_smile: Also, I think the two paragraphs could probably be merged, but that's not really necessary. :slight_smile: I also don't see MY favourite offline translation tool (Virtaal) mentioned, but you surely can't please everyone. :))

2) Is a construction "as regards something" actually used in English? I've
never seen or heard such construction before, so it looks to me like
someone's imperfect English. IMO, the two occurences of this could be
replaced by simply a word "regarding" or something like that.

Yes, "as regards something" is fine. I'm happy to have just broadened
your English. :wink:

Hehe, thanks for broadening it. :slight_smile: Though I still can't get used to "as regards sth"...

By the way, here's a totally unrelated quote from today's IRC:
Mabian: irc://freenode.net/documentfoundation does not connect using chatzilla
Mabian: irc://chat.freenode.net/documentfoundation does

you may want to fix this. :wink:

Best regards,
Rimas