low traffic lately?

users
#1

This is top posted. I apologize but it seems appropriate in this case.

A blind copy (to prevent Reply All from including the address) of this is also going to the list's postmaster.

I'm a 75 year youngster. Over the last few months I've taken to reading and responding to eMail via K-9 Mail on my Android phone.

Reacting to a message involves tapping an arrow icon and selecting one of four items from a menu that appears. Here are the four menu items and their default behavior ON THIS LIST.

• Reply — A reply style message gets addressed to the one who posted the message to which I am replying. My signature is above the quoted text.

• Reply all — A reply style message gets addressed to every Tom, Dick, and Harry (including the list) found in the addressing headers of the message to which I am replying. My signature is above the quoted text.

• Forward — A forward style message without any addressees is created. I don't recall where my signature gets placed.

• Share — A "list" of applications is offered which includes the installed eMail apps. If I select K-9 Mail a reply style message is generated with only the list addressed and with my signature at the bottom.

I think most (all?) eMail clients have "Reply," "Reply All," and "Forward" functionality.

I also think most mailing lists encourage replies to the list by inserting a "Reply-To" header designating the list as the preferred reply address. This lets all on the list to learn from most responses. It also guides people on the list regarding which queries still need a response.

When I started using eMail (using Pegasus Mail) over a dozen years ago it was considered to be rude to arbitrarily use Reply All. One reason is that using it in reply to a rumor that was spewed to a zillion addresses will also spew the reply a zillion ways. As a result my reflex action is to use the simple Reply action.

Seeing others say they have inadvertently sent replies off list tells me that this issue is not unique to me.

And if you use Thunderbird and read the list through gmane you will see
a followup button that replies only to the list. The reply button

replies to the sender.

#2

Hi James,

I also think most mailing lists encourage replies to the list by inserting a "Reply-To" header designating the list as the preferred reply address. This lets all on the list to learn from most responses. It also guides people on the list regarding which queries still need a response.

we had quite a large discussion on that topic a while ago, with advantages and disadvantages for both settings (so called "reply-to mangling"). We have in the end agreed to use the setting as it is now.

Sorry if that causes inconveniences for you, but there's close to little we can do to make everyone happy.

Florian

#3

Hi :slight_smile:

re: top vs bottom posting

Many people using this mailing list are likely to be unfamiliar with
various notions that are in common usage on other mailing lists.
Hopefully this mailing list responds to people in ways they are
familiar with but at the same time prepares them for other
possibilities.

Many office workers have no idea that bottom posting sometimes happens
until after they have been (possibly) rudely "told off" on some other
mailing list. On this list people use all 3 methods so that new users
become aware that top-posters are often responding to something that
was bottom posted. So we do it gently.

Oddly it seems that most other mailing lists for LibreOffice seem to
use top-posting almost exclusively whereas many other Open Source
projects bottom-post. LibreOffice is one of the gateway projects into
the world of Open Source so it makes sense to guide people gently.

re: "Reply to all"

Again it's something that almost all new users are unlikely to have
used before. Quite a few of us keep grumbling about it but in many
cases that is more about making people aware of something that other
mailing-lists take for granted. It makes people more comfortable
about admitting to making mistakes when they realise that many others
do too, especially when it's obviously quite sophisticated users that
also make the same blunder.

Some of us keep making the same blunder or get annoyed by others doing
things differently. Hopefully most of us have learned to be a bit
more forgiving of ourselves and of others.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#4

Whatever value your argument might have had, you destroy it by being abusive and using an ad hominem argument, of course. It is thus surprising that you should choose to do this.

Brian Barker

#5

+1

P

#6

jeez, these days no one knows what an 'ad hominem' argument is!

an 'ad hominem' attempts to prove a point against (or for) X by basing the point on some logically irrelevant aspect of the person claiming X.

e.g. "you only say we should bottom-post because you are a tosser."

(whatever a 'tosser' is, is that a kind of shot putter?)

that wasn't the case here as Peter based his point on a different argument (albeit one I find thoroughly unconvincing but not because I'm a shot putter).

name-calling does not invalidate an argument else, "p implies q, therefore not (p and not-q), you tosser!" would be invalid.

just saying....

F.

#7

I'm not sure, but if you have a pair, aren't they used for salad?

#8

This sent to me off-list.

No further comment required.

Why is, do you think, that people feel the need to apologise on this
very list for bottom-posting? Because of my ad-hominem attacks? It must
be, because all the bottom-posters on this list are angels of
forbearance, while all the top-posters are repeatedly admonishing
bottom-posters to please, please, top-post.

Fellas, look in the mirror.

I will never apologize for proper behavior on mailing lists.

I don't waste time correcting those who top-post.
As Mark Twain said,
"Never try to teach a pig to whistle;
it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Tony

-- Peter West "...and a sword will pierce through your own soul also..."

#9

Hi :slight_smile:
Such attitude is dying out.

Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and
almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the
possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow
users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most
users.

Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such
which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been
a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we
have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity.

Hopefully this mailing list helps people learn that bottom posting is
widely used in Open Source projects and helps them become more
familiar with doing so. Other successful gateway projects also use
top-posting a lot, for example Firefox, Ubuntu and others. Ones that
remain unpopular or have a hard time attracting new people (such as
Evolution) insist on bottom posting and sees almost all enquirers
leave rather than become involved. It is sad but we kinda have to
live with the way things are rather than the way we might prefer them
to be.

Sadly, Open Source is still a minority amongst new users that we are
trying to attract. Happily many of those seem to move on to using
other open source projects.

Errr, just a minor point but if someone posts something like this
off-list then it's a bit rude to throw their post into the lime-light.
If you feel you must do so then please remove or hide their name but
it's better to just point out to them that their view-point is
important even if it might be unpopular.

As you have probably seen many on this mailing-list constantly
disagree with each other about almost everything and anything. It's
something that makes Open Source great imo. We all disagree but that
leads to us offering choices and diversity
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#10

Hi :slight_smile:
Such attitude is dying out.

Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and
almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the
possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow
users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most
users.

That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't learn.

Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such
which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been
a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we
have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity.

I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see
a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun.

Hopefully this mailing list helps people learn that bottom posting is
widely used in Open Source projects and helps them become more
familiar with doing so. Other successful gateway projects also use
top-posting a lot, for example Firefox, Ubuntu and others. Ones that
remain unpopular or have a hard time attracting new people (such as
Evolution) insist on bottom posting and sees almost all enquirers
leave rather than become involved. It is sad but we kinda have to
live with the way things are rather than the way we might prefer them
to be.

That outlook would mean that we (US) would still be under British rule.

Tell it to any country that has overthrown an autocratic ruler.

         .......snip.......

There is a special spot in hell for people who overquote *including
multiple sigs and footers*.

#11

Hi :slight_smile:
Such attitude is dying out.

Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and
almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the
possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow
users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most
users.

That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't learn.

I wholly concur that top-posting is a scourge and especially if the post is not trimmed; sometimes I just skip posts since I cannot figure out what in the long tail of to and fro the poster is referring and replying to, esp top-posted one-liners that make no sense. it's just not worth it.

and Tom's post here is irrelevant to the issue why one _should_ bottom-post, trim and put comments in-line but he provides valuable understanding of the forces against the practice.

I don't see that we all will come to agreement so that cannot be the point of these discussions. I think we could give them some point if the one side would provide a succinct summary of what it considers good reasons for top-, and the other side provides good reasons for bottom-posting.

at least that would or can shed light on the issues and lessen the heat. maybe.

people will make their own judgments, some will change their practices, most won't of course but we'll (or may) get beyond tossing salad or shotputs or whatever.

we could write a page somewhere and give a link to it whenever the topic a-flames again.

(I'm stopping here; maybe this is middle-posting?)

F.

#12

Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such
which office workers really do not have time for.

Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster.
.....

I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see
a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun.

But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted?

#13

That simply demonstrates that it is not beneficial to either the writer, nor the reader.

#14

The idea is to leave the part of the quoted text you're replying to and
yes, the discussion can still be read sequentially.

#15

Hi :slight_smile:
Such attitude is dying out.

Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and
almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the
possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow
users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most
users.

Maybe it is time these so called modern devices got back into line then and forced
bottom posting as standard

Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such
which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been
a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we
have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity.

Errr why does bottom posting require "Loads of extra work ".

Pete

#16

That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't learn.

I wholly concur that top-posting is a scourge and especially if the
post is not trimmed; sometimes I just skip posts since I cannot figure
out what in the long tail of to and fro the poster is referring and
replying to, esp top-posted one-liners that make no sense. it's just
not worth it.

True

and Tom's post here is irrelevant to the issue why one _should_
bottom-post, trim and put comments in-line but he provides valuable
understanding of the forces against the practice.

The majority >90% posts are irrelevant...

I don't see that we all will come to agreement so that cannot be the
point of these discussions. I think we could give them some point if
the one side would provide a succinct summary of what it considers
good reasons for top-, and the other side provides good reasons for
bottom-posting.

at least that would or can shed light on the issues and lessen the
heat. maybe.

You're dreaming; each to their own.

#17

Not really. The un-deniable fact: the English language convention is
to read left-to-right, top-to-bottom.

#18

Hi :slight_smile:
Such attitude is dying out.

Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and
almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the
possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow
users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most
users.

Maybe it is time these so called modern devices got back into line then and
forced
bottom posting as standard

Agree; for example, would love to get a new twitter client (ttytter is
sadly abandoned) with posts in chronological order.

Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such
which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been
a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we
have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity.

Errr why does bottom posting require "Loads of extra work ".

It's amazing how people do not comprehend how to use the 'end' key...