Mac people

users
#21

Ernest Kurtz wrote:

Thank you, Alex. Is there any possibility of having an LO Mac list? This
list is deluging my mailbox with queries foreign to my needs and
experience.

The OpenOffice.org community forum does have a
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=17 Mac-specific
section as well as a
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=101 LibreOffice
section , and we welcome queries from Mac people and LibO people.

I recently started a thread about having
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Side-by-side-install-of-LibO-and-OOo-tp3078835p3078835.html
LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org coexist on a computer. I am hearing
conflicting stories about this, some people say they have both with no
trouble, others talk about serious interference between the two.

I believe this situation should be addressed very soon, as it is
unacceptable for one program to demand that you uninstall another first,
which is the advice given in the LibreOffice 3.3.3 Release Notes. Any
suggestions on how to capture developers' attention and convince them of the
seriousness of the matter are welcome!

#22

Hi :slight_smile:

There is no conflicting advice. Everyone is saying exactly the same thing but
perhaps it's not being made clear enough. It is not worth putting the vast
amount of effort required into fixing the trivial issue that almost no-one
experiences and that has a simple work-around anyway.

There is a guide on how to install multiple versions of LibreOffice and
OpenOffice and possibly other products developed from the original StarOffice
over the last decade or so.
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Installing_in_parallel

The guide is a work-around because a careless, straight install of both
occasionally causes intermittent clashes on some machines in certain
situations. However, the problems are RARE and only seen in a tiny percentage
of systems that have multiple instances installed.

At worst the problems do not cause any harm to data or security (except to
cause one of the programs to close unexpectedly). They don't open any
vulnerabilities in the programs nor in other programs nor in the Operating
System. Fixing it requires a major re-write of the code that has been
developed over the last 10years or so and if done hastily without proper and
considerable planning could cause major breakages. It's not something to rush
and is not something that can be sorted over-night!!

LibreOffice devs are working at the first step in the process towards sorting
it. The work was not supported in OpenOffice although Sun had begun the
planning process. So far that first step, being done by LibreOffice devs, has
taken an average of over 100 devs over 6 months. Various other benefits have
been gained from that, such as tighter, faster, more secure (more stable) code.
Code and functionality from other forks have been integrated into the main
branch. Other functionality and developments added. Ancient bug-reports have
been and are being solved along with newer issues. The program size has been
drastically reduced with benefits in download size, install times and general
efficiency.

So it's NOT trivial, it IS being worked on and there is a simple work-around
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Installing_in_parallel
to prevent the RARE instances of a non-harmful problem which occasionally arises
under circumstances that the vast majority of users would NOT experience.

If people do ignore all the advice and then fail to read the simple guide that
keeps on being pointed to for the very tiny number of people that want to try
running both at the same time then there is a high chance they still wont
encounter any problems. IF they do (and that is a big IF) then usually turning
off the Quick Start in OpenOffice (not LibreOffice) and not opening both at the
same time is enough to make sure the minor issue doesn't happen again.

It is not worth putting the vast amount of effort required into fixing the
trivial issue that almost no-one experiences and that has a simple and
reasonably well-publicised work-around anyway.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#23

Tom, I will ignore the hostile tone in your reply and the unsupported
assertions ("rare", etc.) and simply note that the link you gave applies to
installing different versions of LibreOffice on the same computer, not to
having both OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice installed.

Do you have any useful advice on how to remove the warning from the LibO
3.3.3 Release Notes (uninstall OpenOffice.org before installing
LibreOffice)?

If there is no real problem, then the warning should not be there. If there
is a problem, then it needs to be addressed ASAP in my opinion.

#24

Hi :slight_smile:
The useful advice i have is
1) use the work-arounds so that you never have to worry about it
2) It is being worked on so stop worrying
3) become a dev yourself and help fix it
The warning is there to prevent people from stumbling into a known-issue.

Problems are not always able to be instantly fixed. In some cases there may be
no point in fixing something trivial if fixing it causes major problems. In
other cases the problem might have a simple work-around but would require vast
expenditure of limited resources to fix. That does not mean the problem doesn't
exist. IT DOES exist BUT its RARE.

Should we hide the existance of the problem and pretend it doesn't exist?
Perhaps we could blame the user as certain other products do? Or should we give
fair warning that there might be issues if simple work-arounds are not
followed?

Again you are not reading to understand. You are again reading to impose your
idea without regard to, nor consideration of, realities. Most people read to
widen their understanding. Try it. It's more interesting that way.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#25

Tom

I think in view of the comments below, could you please, (if you have one compiled), a complete list of LO links to find LO info; is there a list of frequent questions?

This is not sent when you first sign up to [Libreoffice-users] . I notice that links do creep in on a kind of need to know basis and some are starting to re-occur from the same / similar questions.

This would seem to indicate the need for such a list from the very start.

I have to say that for the "Document Foundation" - Documents do seem woefully short - but this might not be the case > if only I knew where to find them.

IMHO what might be trivial to the experts (and in fact may prove globally trivial) or even what might be considered a mega hurdle in programming, I might interpret as a mini bug or an annoyance which can be simply resolved by either a bit of knowledge or a work around.

I would hate an email such as this! - but I do understand if you are giving out the same advice, time after time.

oh.... and for us newbies to LO > tutorials (the help files are ....well... lets say basic and need updating).

regards

John B

#26

Thanks, aqualung: I am looking into the two OOo fora to which you link.
ek

#27

Hi :slight_smile:
I am sorry about both those 2 previous emails.

There is some (limited) documentation at
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/documentation/
or
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation
The documentation team would greatly appreciate any help and they are a very
helpful team. It's a great way to learn a lot and to learn it fast.

The documentation is mostly already written but needs a substiantial re-working
from the old OpenOffice guides before it can be put on the website i just gave a
link to. Partly this is due to extra functionality that has been developed by
LibreOffice devs but also the screen-shots need updating and some that was
work-in-progress anyway. The first release has only been completed for Writer
and Calc and the Starter Guide. Base is the one that needs the most work as a
lot of it needs to be pulled together from scratch or scattered blogs and bits
of training programs. People are actively working on Draw, Impress and i think
Math so more guides should appear over the next few weeks.

Lulu are publishing proper books that can be bought
http://stores.lulu.com/opendocument
with a good percentage of the profit going to TDF.

The wiki is a good place to hunt for things that are works-in-progress from the
various different teams
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Main_Page

I couldn't find the FAQ page because there seemed to be different ones for each
different app (Writer, Calc, Impress etc) and in a lot of different languages.
I think the release notes for whichever version you are using might be more
useful because each release seems to cure more issues and has more
functionality. Development is fast-paced even in the stable 3.3.x branch.

Similar questions do arise from new people all the time and that is fine.
Different people have different tehnical backgrounds but may be noobs at certain
other areas so it's not always easy to guess whether someone might be insulted
by a non-technical answer or feel hopelessly overwhelmed by one that is too
technical. Usually the best way is to keep asking questions and perhaps give an
indication of your own background.

Yday in a different forum in a question about getting a printer to work the
person had been a web-designer for 20 years but had apparently never needed to
trouble-shoot a printer! Asking them to "ping the printer" was the nudge they
needed and they were then able to 'guess' the new ip-address for the new printer
and their Network Admin was able to take that and fix the Dhcp server to
re-issue the old ip-address to the new printer. Errr and an early stage had
been someone hadn't plugged the network cable in! So the early answer of "check
the leads" helped! None of them could solve the entire problem on their own but
together they got it done with just a gentle couple of nudges that a different
bunch of people might not have understood and would have had to solve
differently.

Giving the same advice to different people time-after-time is not a problem. As
you pointed out Faqs and Documentation can often help and need to be updated
even after they are done first time. Copy&paste can also help but usually
questions introduce new slants or bring in different side-issues.

The person from earlier needs to take the advice given earlier in other threads
where that person has asked the same question; of talking to the devs mailing
list, or post a bug-report or check to see if they still have a problem after
using the work-arounds. If they had asked the question under a different name
or if a different person had asked the question then i would have given a
shorter, and more polite, possibly even friendly answer combining some of those
ways of moving forwards.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#28

Tom,

With your latest insulting missive you have simply underscored what I
suspected: you are not someone to be taken seriously and I shall henceforth
ignore you.

#29

Hi :slight_smile:
You are an excellent person except on this particular question. All the other
points, ideas, answers, positive influence etc are superb but this one issue is
driving me nuts
Apols and regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#30

Dear Tom

Thank you so much

/but may be noobs at certain other areas/

I think when it comes to LO, I qualify for ALL areas, hoping to become "Noob the lesser"

regards

John

#31

aqualung wrote (24-06-11 15:05)

Tom,

With your latest insulting missive you have simply underscored what I
suspected: you are not someone to be taken seriously and I shall henceforth
ignore you.

good catch!