Mail List Etiquette

Hi,

I have essentially tuned out over the last few days as the debate raged regarding top posting and bottom posting. I went back over the threads today but did nor really discover what is "wanted" or "preferred".

When joining this list I noted in my first email the lack of any real information on posting messages, what the list was about or appropriate etiquette.

Information should be available somewhere, associated with the libreoffice-users list, on what sort of questions the list addresses, subject line format, preferences with top-posting versus bottom-posting, snipping of text, etcetera.

Maybe the list moderator(s) could draft something up, post it on the wiki and provide a link in the footer of future messages. This will go a long way to standardising the email content on the list.

Some people would consider that rude and off-putting to a) newcomers
who don't read the sign-up page that carefully or b) don't know where
the wiki is, or c) people who can't take the trouble to follow
guidelines they don't agree with anyway.

Other than that, it's a perfectly acceptable idea to me since I read
guidelines and abide by them even if I don't agree with them.

But that's just me.

Good suggestion.

Hi Simon,

Information should be available somewhere, associated with the
libreoffice-users list, on what sort of questions the list
addresses, subject line format, preferences with top-posting versus
bottom-posting, snipping of text, etcetera.

Maybe the list moderator(s) could draft something up ...

This already exists in German:
http://www.eschkitai.de/libreoffice/netikette.html
Maybe someone can/wants to translate this.

I don´t know if Google does a good job in translating:
http://translate.google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eschkitai.de%2Flibreoffice%2Fnetikette.html&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Stefan

Hi Stefan:

I find that on the whole, Google has very clear difficulties in translating the German language to English. IMO, it should be translated by someone who can read German.

The etiquette page should be done for the international site.

Maybe we should put in a request to the translation team?

Cheers

Marc

Hi :slight_smile:
Obviously this list feels it more important to make rules to make it more
difficult for first time users, to ask them to post in a way that is completely
opposite to what they use everywhere else with everyone else they might
communicate with in the course of a working day.

When people ask for help this list expects them to stop and read a list of rules
and then re-configure their set-up in order to ask the question and then
re-configure their system again back to the way they need to use it for
everything else they do. If they use MicroSoft Outlook or Yahoo then they will
be told to use a different email client for this list and probably told to
set-up a different email address too.

So we are trying to make ourselves as inaccessible as possible to the vast
majority of people that might need this list.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi Tom:

I don't believe this is the issue. It is more of a mentorship and guiding suggestion for people joining and making use of the list. I don't believe for a second that we would jump on newcomers and demand they follow a list-writing protocol. However, if a member decides to make regular use of the list(s), then, yes, there should be a gentle reminder that we have an accepted use of bottom posting at LibreOffice. Bottom posting has been agreed as our working model to help streamline our responses. Otherwise, our discussions and help lists would become too hard to read.

Imagine being away for a week and reading through your missed posts. If people use various ways of responding to posts, it would take you forever to make it through these posts and more than likely you would give up on many of them.

Newcomers will and should never be dissuaded from joining in. We should always congratulate and thank people for their help. Our help and support channels should be renowned for their welcoming environment.

Cheers

Marc

Hi,

So we are trying to make ourselves as inaccessible as possible to
the vast majority of people that might need this list.

I don't believe this is the issue. It is more of a mentorship and
guiding suggestion for people joining and making use of the list. I
don't believe for a second that we would jump on newcomers and
demand they follow a list-writing protocol. However, if a member
decides to make regular use of the list(s), then, yes, there should
be a gentle reminder that we have an accepted use of bottom posting
at LibreOffice.

Eaxctly. Thanks. :slight_smile:

It would be a great step forward, if the poeple, who regularly post
on the mailing lists, would recognize the basic rules. This
particular list here, is for user support and is somewhat special,
of course. But please also consider the other lists, where community
work is discussed and coordinated. At least these lists should
helpfully be kept in a certain order. :wink:

Stefan

Ahah, whereas i think this list should instead be the most welcoming and
familiar making people feel at home and comfortable.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Yes, however, regular members who make use of this list should bottom post and be positive examples for others to follow. :slight_smile:

Cheers

Marc

+1

Obviously this list feels it more important to make rules to make it
more difficult for first time users, to ask them to post in a way
that is completely opposite to what they use everywhere else with
everyone else they might communicate with in the course of a working
day.

Not at all...

When people ask for help this list expects them to stop and read a
list of rules and then re-configure their set-up in order to ask the
question

Ridiculous...

1. there is no quoted text when someone asks their question initially -
unless they hijack someone else's thread, which is another no-no on
*any* mail list, and

2. there is no need to reconfigure anything, only a need to take an
extra few seconds to position the cursor and delete unwanted/unnecessary
text.

If they use MicroSoft Outlook or Yahoo then they will be told to use
a different email client for this list and probably told to set-up
a different email address too.

More asinine ridiculousness, Tom, and you're being disingenuous to boot..

I had suggested possibly using a *real* mail client when it became clear
that you were using Yahoo's WEBMAIL client, NOT OUTLOOK.

Sorry, Tom, you have lost all credibility on this subject - you have
made it abundantly clear by your words and actions that you are simply
too damn lazy and arrogant to even consider that you should take a few
extra seconds out of your
oh-so-much-more-valuable-time-than-everyone-else's to abide by a simple
and politely worded request.

Bite me.

Whose whom? Comfortable by what definition?

Here again your arrogance shows through - in your mind, *your* home and
*your* comfort are all that matter and to hell with anyone who thinks
different...

Bite me.

:

Hi Tom:

I don't believe this is the issue. It is more of a mentorship and guiding
suggestion for people joining and making use of the list. I don't believe
for a second that we would jump on newcomers and demand they follow a
list-writing protocol. However, if a member decides to make regular use of
the list(s), then, yes, there should be a gentle reminder that we have an
accepted use of bottom posting at LibreOffice. Bottom posting has been
agreed as our working model to help streamline our responses. Otherwise, our
discussions and help lists would become too hard to read.

Well said, but your advice is falling on the deaf ears of a frequent
poster who is often helpful but seems to think that his choice of how
to use other people's/groups' discussion lists trumps common courtesy
and (to anyone else) universally recognized netiquette.

When an email discussion list has posted conventions, it is not hard
to follow them if one wishes to participate in the list. It might be
useful if, as has been said, the conventions were actually posted
somewhere, preferably in all supported languages. If not, there's
this excellent example, which could be incorporated by reference
somewhere on TDF's sites:

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists

with particular attention to the Technical Guidelines section.

(Note: The CentOS discussion list has similar conventions, and on both
of those lists, as well as many others I subscribe to, the regular
contributors are sticklers for following the list conventions like
proper quoting, bottom-posting, etc.)

As I've said before in other wording, if one is going to contribute by
helping others, one needs to give up one's ego about how to do it,
follow the conventions and make sure that they give the *bets* help
possible, not just what is convenient for them at the moment.
Anything else is grossly unprofessional.

:

As I've said before in other wording, if one is going to contribute by
helping others, one needs to give up one's ego about how to do it,
follow the conventions and make sure that they give the *bets* help
possible, not just what is convenient for them at the moment.
Anything else is grossly unprofessional.

Grr - BEST, not bets.

One bloody typo and.... <sigh>

Exactly. I've added him to a kill file so I don't have to look at his
inconsiderate rants.

I am also on lists that are sticklers for following conventions such
as bottom posting, trimming, not sending out-of-office replies to the
list, etc. Violating those conventions after being warned will get you
booted from the list. Typically, these are large lists with large
volume: the rules are there to minimise 'noise' for recipients.

But some people are just flat out lazy and want everyone and
everything to revolve around them. :frowning:

+10e10!

Let's abandon this vindictiveness.

         PLEASE!

This forum is one of our technological assets that should serve as an aid to users.

                                     Let's not squander it.

Glenn

Sorry, Tom, you have lost all credibility on this subject - you have
made it abundantly clear by your words and actions that you are simply
too damn lazy and arrogant to even consider that you should take a few
extra seconds out of your
oh-so-much-more-valuable-time-than-everyone-else's to abide by a simple
and politely worded request.

Bite me.

+10e10!

--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"

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Glenn
glennst01@gmail.com