New language localization

l10n
#1

N'ko is a right to left language with its own digits. For more information
see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N'Ko_alphabet
Unicode range : U+07C0–U+07FF

I want to start the localization of libre office in N'ko language.
Unfortunately, this language is not yet supported. Some information about
te language :
ISO 639-2 : nqo
English Name : N'ko
ISO 3166-1 : not available (standard language)
Microsoft ID : not available
Unicode range : U+07C0–U+07FF
right to left : yes
own digits : yes
Wiki page :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N'Ko_alphabet

#2

Hi Kairaba,

Welcome to LibreOffice. I'm sure someone else will set it up for you but I think we just need to make sure we get the right language code - reading through the articles on Wikipedia, N'ko is a writing system but it is actually used for several languages, including Manding, Dioula and Bambara. I'm guessing you will be translating into Manding using the N'ko writing system (which, since it's in Unicode shouldn't be a problem I think) but better to be sure I think.

Will you be translating into Manding?

Best regards,

Michael

04/05/2013 13:37, sgrìobh Kaïraba Cissé:

#3

Ok I've talked to Kairaba off list and the solution is this: N'ko is the name both for a writing system AND a macro-language covering Manding, Dioula etc so the ISO code needed for setting up the language on LO is "man".

Plural rules are (as per CLDR): other → everything

Cheers,

Michael

04/05/2013 13:37, sgrìobh Kaïraba Cissé:

#4

This probably isn't the right solution. "man" is a macrolanguage
called "Mandingo" but it doesn't include all of the Manding languages;
in fact it doesn't include Dioula or even the N'ko language (nqo):

http://www.ethnologue.com/language/man

Plus, some of the languages under "man" are written in Latin script.

Why not nqo?

http://www.ethnologue.com/language/nqo

Kevin

#5

Different sources vary on this but I've asked Kairaba this very question and he says it *is* indeed a macro-language they're translating into in which Manding, Dioula, Bambara and a few others are considered variants of N'ko.

It basically seems to cover both the Eastern and Western branch of Manding as covered here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manding_languages

So I think we're ok with "man".

Michael

05/05/2013 13:39, sgrìobh Kevin Scannell:

#6

Ah I misclicked and read the same page twice. Have now read *both*, I agree that nqo is the right, more specific ISO code for N'ko

Michael

05/05/2013 13:39, sgrìobh Kevin Scannell:

#7

Hi Kaïraba,

N'ko is a right to left language with its own digits. For more information
see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N'Ko_alphabet
Unicode range : U+07C0–U+07FF

I want to start the localization of libre office in N'ko language.
Unfortunately, this language is not yet supported.

Please see
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_Localization_Guide/Adding_a_New_Language_or_Locale
and submit an RFE as stated under "Request a new language/locale to be
added".

ISO 3166-1 : not available (standard language)

According to the Ethnologue http://www.ethnologue.com/language/nqo that
would be 'GN' Guinea, we need a default country assignment for locale
data.

  Eike

#8

A question in general - that list is *really* scary unless you have several years of l10n under your belt already and I'm certain it will be putting off a lot of potential localizers. Could we not stick a big note on that page that says "If none of this makes sense to you and you want to add a new language, please email [either this list or a dedicated new list] and we'll help you".

It actually ties in with the community liaison issue I would say, to a newbie that page looks like we're trying to put off folk.

In actual fact, when I moved from OO, I don't think the process was as technical as that. When did it get so confusing?

Michael

06/05/2013 12:25, sgrìobh Eike Rathke:

#9

I personally don't but others might feel there should be another list. As I have no preference, I simply listed the two options that seemed logical to me :slight_smile:

Michael

06/05/2013 12:59, sgrìobh Jonathan Aquilina:

#10

The issue with creating another list is that it means we just have
something else to moderate in terms of unregistered users.

#11

Jonathan Aquilina wrote (06-05-13 13:59)

Can you explain why another list would be needed instead of this one?

Didn't Michael just refer to the list of items that needs to be done for a new localization?

#12

No, I did refer to (potentially) a new list. But please, lets not fixate on that bit, we seem to be agreed a new list is not needed. That wasn't the main thrust of that post though, it was about the scariness of the "New localization page"

Michael

06/05/2013 13:38, sgrìobh Cor Nouws:

#13

my apologies for misunderstanding might be good to get your suggestion on
the website list as well.

#14

Hi,

A question in general - that list is *really* scary unless you have several
years of l10n under your belt already and I'm certain it will be putting off
a lot of potential localizers. Could we not stick a big note on that page
that says "If none of this makes sense to you and you want to add a new
language, please email [either this list or a dedicated new list] and we'll
help you".

It actually ties in with the community liaison issue I would say, to a
newbie that page looks like we're trying to put off folk.

In actual fact, when I moved from OO, I don't think the process was as
technical as that. When did it get so confusing?

I'm sorry, there must be a misunderstanding. Eike has just asked for a
bug filed in bugzilla, not more. New localizers do not need to
understand all details of LibreOffice Localization Guide. We collected
the knowledge there for developers, so it is a documentation for l10n
developers, although some parts of it might be interesting for
translators, too.

Best regards,
Andras

#15

Hi,

my apologies for misunderstanding might be good to get your suggestion on
the website list as well.

It is a wiki page that anyone can edit.

HTH,
Andras

#16

Yes and no. Let me start again before I create more confusion:

1) I realise Eike only asked for a bug to be filed (that in itself is hurdle #1 as it requires knowledge of what a bug is and how to file one by the way)
2) Eike referred to the Wiki page (presumably to give Kairaba additional information on requesting new languages)
3) I went and read said Wiki page and it struck me how confusing this seems to me and how scary it must be to someone who is new to localization and primarily a new translator and who googles "localizing LibreOffice" and comes across said page without knowing about this l10n mailing list, so that's hurdle #2
4) I then posted whether that page should not have a big sign slapped across it saying "if this confuses you, just send us an email" (and foolishly in the same sentence suggested this *might* require a new list. That's clearly a lead balloon so let's not bring that up again)

I just googled "translating LibreOffice" and actually this page https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers/ (which is a lot more readable... I'd be tempted to add a small diagram though) does come out on top so perhaps it was just an unfortunate misunderstanding on my behlaf that, having followed Eike's link, I assume that was the main landing page for potential localizers.

So I guess it narrows my concerns down to a) is that a good reference page to give to new people whose IT skills are an unknown and b) if bugfiling should really be done by the newbie?

Michael

06/05/2013 14:06, sgrìobh Andras Timar:

#17

Hi,

So I guess it narrows my concerns down to a) is that a good reference page
to give to new people whose IT skills are an unknown and b) if bugfiling
should really be done by the newbie?

How could a person without basic IT skills localize a product like
LibreOffice? I don't think that it is possible.
Filing a bug is basically clicking on a URL (the page says "submit an
issue for Enhancement to Product LibreOffice Component Localisation
marked for i18n by using this URL"), some fields are prefilled. Well,
registration is needed.

Nevertheless, feel free to edit the wiki page, and thanks for offering
your help in guiding newbies in this mailing list.

Thanks,
Andras

#18

Yes and no. Let me start again before I create more confusion:

1) I realise Eike only asked for a bug to be filed (that in itself is
hurdle #1 as it requires knowledge of what a bug is and how to file one
by the way)
2) Eike referred to the Wiki page (presumably to give Kairaba additional
information on requesting new languages)
3) I went and read said Wiki page and it struck me how confusing this
seems to me and how scary it must be to someone who is new to
localization and primarily a new translator and who googles "localizing
LibreOffice" and comes across said page without knowing about this l10n
mailing list, so that's hurdle #2
4) I then posted whether that page should not have a big sign slapped
across it saying "if this confuses you, just send us an email" (and
foolishly in the same sentence suggested this *might* require a new
list. That's clearly a lead balloon so let's not bring that up again)

Normally you should be sent here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Translating_LibreOffice (however
this page should be completed/updated)
but unfortunately I've never been able to add the good content to the
site by the past.

I just googled "translating LibreOffice" and actually this page
https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/localizers/ (which is a lot
more readable... I'd be tempted to add a small diagram though) does come
out on top so perhaps it was just an unfortunate misunderstanding on my
behlaf that, having followed Eike's link, I assume that was the main
landing page for potential localizers.

This page is partly wrong because it addresses also NLPs where the work
is completely different.

So I guess it narrows my concerns down to a) is that a good reference
page to give to new people whose IT skills are an unknown and b) if
bugfiling should really be done by the newbie?

For the a) part, I guess we have to work on the wiki page and the
website page. I've rights on the site page, I can modify it based on the
suggestion the group will make. For the wiki page anybody is able to add
and update the page.
For b) I think it's necessary for Eike to work on the code side, but
that doesn't mean we (our group) can't help to fill the bug.

The missing part in Eike mail was 'and if you need help don't hesitate
to ask', sometimes we forget about that when writing too fast :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Sophie

#19

Hi,

So I guess it narrows my concerns down to a) is that a good reference page
to give to new people whose IT skills are an unknown and b) if bugfiling
should really be done by the newbie?

How could a person without basic IT skills localize a product like
LibreOffice? I don't think that it is possible.

I think that should be possible because there is enough experienced
people here to help to get the basics.

Filing a bug is basically clicking on a URL (the page says "submit an
issue for Enhancement to Product LibreOffice Component Localisation
marked for i18n by using this URL"), some fields are prefilled. Well,
registration is needed.

Because you do it every day :wink: A localizer is often more a linguist than
a technical person, but again, we can help with this. Just need to say it.

Nevertheless, feel free to edit the wiki page, and thanks for offering
your help in guiding newbies in this mailing list.

yes, lets not make that an issue, we are here to help each other too :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Sophie

#20

I beg to differ. All one requires to localize something like LO are translation skills and a good understanding of how a UI works. Sure, you need to learn what a placeholder is but that aside, the translation itself requires much less in the way of IT skills than most projects assume.

You can take me as an example - I couldn't program a dot running across the screen if my life depended on it. In actual fact, if Kevin Scannell hadn't chaperoned me through the process of doing (back then) OO and Firefox, I would have never gotten anywhere. I can translate extremely well and at breakneck speed, that's what I do for a living after all, and I understand how UI work but in terms of my IT skills, I've very much at the basic end of the spectrum, even though it's what, 5 years, since my first completed l10n project. I still sweat blood when I have to commit Thunderbird via a bunch of Unix commands cause I still have almost no clue what they actually mean. Yes, this isn't Mozilla, but it's the principle.

I had, in fact, tried to join OO/Mozilla on my own previsouly but I don't think people who have been doing this a long time or who do this profesionally realise how unnecessarily high the hurdles are for "just translators". You ("we" by now I guess) are all very friendly and helpful, I'm not suggesting the opposite for a second - but when you're so wound up in something it's easy to forget what it's like for someone outside the bubble.

Anyway, I'll have a go at the wiki and see what can be done.

Michael

06/05/2013 14:47, sgrìobh Andras Timar: