Old Hat "Top or Bottom Posting"!

users
#1

Hello,

It is time for action, those that can't follow the rules of the road need to
have their license taken away. If the rules state you should drive on the
right side of the road to prevent a head-on-collision than that is what you
are to do "PERIOD", not what one feels like doing to be different.

Set up the filter(s) on the mail system and trash all incoming mails from those
that can't or in this case won't follow the rules. Once they see that their
posts are not showing up on the list, then and only then will they get the
message as to what is expected behavior on this list.

Great job to all of you that have and continue to give "us the user community"
a very good and useful "FREE" product, hats off and thank-you!

Tommy-two

#2

What rules??? :slight_smile: Please, do no regard that as a sarcastic reply, simply a statement of fact unless things have changed.

I access this list via the gmane.org and were it not for that option, I wouldn't be subscribed.

I now follow 4 open source newsgroups (I'm calling the LO mailing list a newsgroup for this message, as that is how the gmane system formats the emails), and I sadly have to say all 4 are really poor and unfriendly systems to new users.

Not from the perspective of the majority of the people who try to help, but from the perspective of how the organizations have set up their websites when it comes to finding help if you are a new user to the product and/or a new user of newsgroups and mailing lists. Sort of like taking your car to the dealer, and no one is at the desk to schedule your repair. :slight_smile:

Sticking just to "the rules"...

When I first subscribed to this list, I got into a discussion with another user about netiquette, and just what the proper "rules" were. That prompted me to do a little poking around the web for netiquette rules.

To keep it short, some places tell you to top post, some bottom post, some say interspersed.

LO says .................*NOTHING!* I've not been able to find a page from TDF about netiquette. Until TDF actually develops a netiquette type of rules page or guidelines, then there is no right or wrong way. Just different ways. And those that say A is right and B, C, D, etc. is wrong are applying rules from a different organization to this organization.

Personally, I would prefer interspersed, it keeps the reply near the topic being replied to.

#3

+1

#4

Is in the footer of every message posted to the list Ken.

#5

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 10:39:31 +0200, "Thomas HInd II"
<t.m.hind2@t-online.de> wrote Re [libreoffice-users] Old Hat "Top or
Bottom Posting"!:

Hello,

It is time for action, those that can't follow the rules of the road need to
have their license taken away. If the rules state you should drive on the
right side of the road to prevent a head-on-collision than that is what you
are to do "PERIOD", not what one feels like doing to be different.

+1 on that.

#6

On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 07:36:47 -0400, Tanstaafl
<tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Old
Hat "Top or Bottom Posting"!:

Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

Is in the footer of every message posted to the list Ken.

Good link

#7

Hi, Tanstaafl,

Well... Please don't take this personally, but I'm sitting here laughing!

I'd never noticed that netiquette link at the bottom of the page. Maybe that's not the best way for TDF to get info out. After all, is the reader of new messages going to read the sig files for each and every message to see if there is new information? It might be a major assumption to think a lot of readers even read the sig file in the first place.

I've become a perfect example! LOL!

I don't want to take this conversation way off topic, I doubt most of the readers would be that interested, but for now I'll stand by my comment that the websites/newsgroups I follow don't make it easy for "newbies" to get the information. This may not even be the best mailing list for such a discussion, but I am open to having a discussion on how I think things could be improved for new users.

Thanks for the tip, I'm off to read the pages.

#8

Well... Please don't take this personally, but I'm sitting here laughing!

Not at all, I've been laughing at this ridiculous discussion for days
now... :wink:

I'd never noticed that netiquette link at the bottom of the page. Maybe
that's not the best way for TDF to get info out. After all, is the
reader of new messages going to read the sig files for each and every
message to see if there is new information? It might be a major
assumption to think a lot of readers even read the sig file in the first
place.

That is the problem - most people/users simply don't read...

My only question is - whose fault is that?

#9

Hi,

I'd never noticed that netiquette link at the bottom of the page. Maybe
that's not the best way for TDF to get info out. After all, is the
reader of new messages going to read the sig files for each and every
message to see if there is new information? It might be a major
assumption to think a lot of readers even read the sig file in the first
place.

That is the problem - most people/users simply don't read...

My only question is - whose fault is that?

Too much TV radiation as a kid?

:smiley:

Stefan

#10

Well... Please don't take this personally, but I'm sitting here laughing!

Not at all, I've been laughing at this ridiculous discussion for days
now... :wink:

Good. I learned within two weeks of being online, so many years ago, how easy it is to misunderstand the written word, I try to be careful and write as clearly as I can, yet fail every now and again! :slight_smile:

I'd never noticed that netiquette link at the bottom of the page. Maybe
that's not the best way for TDF to get info out. After all, is the
reader of new messages going to read the sig files for each and every
message to see if there is new information? It might be a major
assumption to think a lot of readers even read the sig file in the first
place.

That is the problem - most people/users simply don't read...

My only question is - whose fault is that?

I rarely read signature files, usually there's nothing there that is of value to the discussion. Mine is an example of that for this thread. In my case, I list the open source software I'm using in case that information is useful to someone who is trying to help me with a problem. Saves me time and may possibly lead to the solution to the problem.

Even the Netiquette pages acknowledge the issue of people possibly not reading the entire message and/or signature files:

From http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html, Section 2.1, third paragraph:

"It is not uncommon that people do not even read the entire article - who wants to read the entire text *again* in search of something new? "

From http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html, Section 2.2, second paragraph:

"In general, signatures have nothing to do with the context of the article, and usually you are not going to refer to the poster's signature."

So... In a way... Even TDF is putting netiquette information in a portion of the message they acknowledge most people aren't going to read. :slight_smile:

Personally, I did find the pages to be unclear about interspersing a reply as I have done, as opposed to placing the entire reply after the message. And it's noted, I'm reading an English translation of a document written in German.

#11

Sounds like top posting with interlineation as appropriate to me. I
just follow the guidelines and ignore everything else.... You take your
reader as you find him....

#12

When it comes to top posting, the guidelines aren't fond of that. :slight_smile: The basic premise against the top posting is you read the answer and then have to go look for the question. It does feel "backwards" to me to do it that way.

Which I had to do to know which of my comments you were replying to. :slight_smile:

#13

When it comes to top posting, the guidelines aren't fond of that. :slight_smile:

Ahhhhhh....... apparently there is some confusion. This is what I rae:

"Just write a mail, You would like to read from very top to very bottom
line by line."

The basic premise against the top posting is you read the answer and
then have to go look for the question. It does feel "backwards" to me
to do it that way.

Sauce for the goose as it were. Thre isn't a lawyer, doctor or
bureaucrat that has not had to learn how to read from the top down....
but that is not the point. Let the utility of one's style draw the
responses it will.... if you are not happy with what you se or how you
see it, hit the delete button. No worries.

Which I had to do to know which of my comments you were replying to. :slight_smile:

And that is one reason why lists are sometimes less effective than other
means of communication. Conversation requires active listening skills,
as it were. Those too lazy won't read Kant; remind me to let him know he
needs to change up his prose style :wink:

#14

When it comes to top posting, the guidelines aren't fond of that. :slight_smile:

Ahhhhhh....... apparently there is some confusion. This is what I rae:

"Just write a mail, You would like to read from very top to very bottom
line by line."

No real confusion. :slight_smile: In the very small type I see a link to this page, http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html, where I got the info. Since you are linked from this wiki page, I would assume the info is the TDF's position on posts.

And that is one reason why lists are sometimes less effective than other
means of communication. Conversation requires active listening skills,
as it were. Those too lazy won't read Kant; remind me to let him know he
needs to change up his prose style :wink:

How true, as good communication also involves the tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language. All of which are not available via text.

#15

Lol! Funny you should say that... I have said things on email lists that
people who actually knew me personally said they'd have punched me in
the face for saying had they NOT known me, simply because, knowing it
was me, they knew I couldn't have meant it the way it sounded in plain
text, and when they asked me about it and I told them the same thing *in
person*, they laughed and said something like 'I figured that's how you
really meant it, but you really should try to use some emoticons or
something'...

#16

Ken

> Sounds like top posting with interlineation as appropriate to me. I
> just follow the guidelines and ignore everything else.... You take your
> reader as you find him....

When it comes to top posting, the guidelines aren't fond of that. :slight_smile:
The basic premise against the top posting is you read the answer and
then have to go look for the question. It does feel "backwards" to me
to do it that way.

Which I had to do to know which of my comments you were replying to. :slight_smile:

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.7
Firefox 3.6.17
Thunderbird 3.1.10
LibreOffice 3.3.2

I can see the value of both top and bottom posting. Which is better
probably depends on the situation. If you are exchanging emails with one
or two other people then top posting probably makes more sense. That is
more like a normal telephone conversation. When you have many people
answering and involved bottom posting probably makes more sense because
you can at least skim the contents of the other posts before deciding to
reply. As far as legal beagles are concerned I think the key issue is
preserving the record not how it is order in the emails, from the emails
you can reconstruct an accurate record of what was written with when and
to whom and by whom identified.

Personally, I do not really care which way is done as long as it is
consistent.