outline numbering

Virgil_Arrington1 · November 8, 2014, 2:03am

I've used LO and its predecessors for about 15 years now. I recently noticed that the dialog boxes for outline numbering have changed. In the past, under the "position" tab for outline numbering, the numbering position was determined by settings such as "width of numbering" and "minimum space to text." Now the numbering position is determined by settings such as "numbering followed by" and "aligned at." This newer dialog seems to follow the practice of MS Word and will, I think, increase compatibility of LO .doc files.

But, now I have a mishmash in my documents. Older documents have the older dialog boxes and newer documents have the newer, even though I load them into the same instance of LO. I'd like to get all my documents working the same, but I've seen no way of changing the outline numbering in old documents to match the newer dialogs. I've played with some of the "compatibility" settings under "tools/options," but I've found nothing that seems to have any effect.

Once a document has been created with outline numbering, is there a way to make LO change the way it establishes the position of the numbering (i.e., with "numbering followed by" a tab, rather than "width of numbering.") It seems to be an either/or with LO, and I can't figure out how it decides which dialog option to give me.

Virgil

Tom_Davies1 · November 8, 2014, 10:29am

Hi
That sounds truly bizarre!

1. Do you have different versions of LibreOffice installed in parallel?

2. If you open the newer version of LibreOffice and use the
File - Open
dialogue to open one of the old files does that force it to open in the
newer version of LO and give it the correct dialogues?

3. If you open the newer version of LibreOffice and close all open
documents so that you get back to the LO splash-screen then can you
drag&drop the old files into the grey area around the central splash-screen?

When you open an old file normally (ie by double-clicking on it) and then
go up to
Help - About
what version of LibreOffice does it say the file is open in?

Regards from
Tom

Virgil_Arrington1 · November 8, 2014, 2:37pm

No, only one version. I do have a Windows/Ubuntu dual boot with LO 4.1.5 on the Windows side and LO 4.2.7 on the Ubuntu side, but I've seen this behavior long before either of those versions.

I first noticed this behavior several years ago when I was sharing documents between LO and Word. At the time, the two programs did outline numbering differently. LO controlled number spacing with the "width of numbering" method whereas Word always automatically inserted a "tab" character between the outline number and the following text. At the time, I preferred the LO method, but it resulted in some inconsistencies when documents were shared between the two programs. I first noticed the "newer" dialog boxes (with "Numbering followed by" option) when I imported a .DOC document into LO. I'm assuming LO sensed the additional "tab" characters after the numbering that were embedded in the .DOC document file and loaded up the appropriate outline dialog box. But, at the time the default LO dialog box for my .ODT documents still gave the "Width of numbering" option instead of the "Numbering followed by" option. However, now it seems as if the "Numbering followed by" option is the new LO default.

My guess is that LO is sensing that my older documents have numbering positioned with the "width of numbering" method and automatically calls up that dialog box. But, once that method is used in a given document, it appears that it remains with that document. In playing more with it this morning, I've found the following:

1. I can control the outline method at the template level. I took an old LO document and saved it as a template, thereby preserving the old method of outline numbering.

2. If I insert an old LO file (with the "width of numbering" method) into a template that has the "numbering followed by" option, any outline numbering in the file is converted to the latter method.

What's more interesting is that, if I click on the contextual help while in the outline numbering dialog box, the help screen provides an explanation for *all* the possible options of both dialog boxes as if they were all available in one box. But, at any time for any document, one is only given one option, i.e., *either* "Numbering followed by" or "Width of numbering."

Virgil

Mark_Bourne · November 8, 2014, 4:12pm

Virgil Arrington wrote:

I've used LO and its predecessors for about 15 years now. I recently
noticed that the dialog boxes for outline numbering have changed. In the
past, under the "position" tab for outline numbering, the numbering
position was determined by settings such as "width of numbering" and
"minimum space to text." Now the numbering position is determined by
settings such as "numbering followed by" and "aligned at." This newer
dialog seems to follow the practice of MS Word and will, I think,
increase compatibility of LO .doc files.

But, now I have a mishmash in my documents. Older documents have the
older dialog boxes and newer documents have the newer, even though I
load them into the same instance of LO. I'd like to get all my documents
working the same, but I've seen no way of changing the outline numbering
in old documents to match the newer dialogs. I've played with some of
the "compatibility" settings under "tools/options," but I've found
nothing that seems to have any effect.

Once a document has been created with outline numbering, is there a way
to make LO change the way it establishes the position of the numbering
(i.e., with "numbering followed by" a tab, rather than "width of
numbering.") It seems to be an either/or with LO, and I can't figure out
how it decides which dialog option to give me.

Virgil

Are all the documents (old and new) in ODF Text (.odt) format? Or are the older ones in Word (.doc) or OpenOffice 1.0 (.sxw) format? I'm wondering if the options shown depend on the format of the document.

Perhaps try opening one of the older documents and use File > Save As... to give it a new name, ensuring ODF Text Document is selected for the file type. Then close, and open the newly saved document. Does it now have the new options?

May be worth trying even if the original document is ODF, since it might be an older version of ODF. I'm not sure though whether using save as would save the new file in the same ODF version as the original or whether the new version would be converted to ODF 1.2.

If there's nothing confidential in them, are you able to post examples of an older and a newer document, showing each set of options? I'm not likely to have much time to look into them myself for a few weeks, but perhaps others might spot some difference.

Mark.

Virgil_Arrington1 · November 8, 2014, 6:22pm

Are all the documents (old and new) in ODF Text (.odt) format? Or are the older ones in Word (.doc) or OpenOffice 1.0 (.sxw) format? I'm wondering if the options shown depend on the format of the document.

Both are (and were originally created as) .ODT files. The old one was originally created on OpenOffice.org (I think 3.2) about 7 years ago.

Perhaps try opening one of the older documents and use File > Save As... to give it a new name, ensuring ODF Text Document is selected for the file type. Then close, and open the newly saved document. Does it now have the new options?

No change in the old file.

By looking at the contextual help, it's apparent that there are different options available based on the original file. .DOC files and newer .ODT files seem to get the new option ("numbering followed by") while older .ODT files have the older options ("width of numbering").

But, once a file gets saved with a given outlining method, it seems to to keep that method forever. The only way it seems to change it is to insert the file into a empty document based on a template having the desired method.

May be worth trying even if the original document is ODF, since it might be an older version of ODF. I'm not sure though whether using save as would save the new file in the same ODF version as the original or whether the new version would be converted to ODF 1.2.

If there's nothing confidential in them, are you able to post examples of an older and a newer document, showing each set of options? I'm not likely to have much time to look into them myself for a few weeks, but perhaps others might spot some difference.

I'll try to put something together to post to demonstrate the issues.

btw, does this list accept screen shots in emails? If so, I can just send an email showing the different dialog boxes.

Virgil

elderdanlewis · November 8, 2014, 6:28pm

Comment inline

Are all the documents (old and new) in ODF Text (.odt) format? Or are the older ones in Word (.doc) or OpenOffice 1.0 (.sxw) format? I'm wondering if the options shown depend on the format of the document.

Both are (and were originally created as) .ODT files. The old one was originally created on OpenOffice.org (I think 3.2) about 7 years ago.

Perhaps try opening one of the older documents and use File > Save As... to give it a new name, ensuring ODF Text Document is selected for the file type. Then close, and open the newly saved document. Does it now have the new options?

No change in the old file.

By looking at the contextual help, it's apparent that there are different options available based on the original file. .DOC files and newer .ODT files seem to get the new option ("numbering followed by") while older .ODT files have the older options ("width of numbering").

But, once a file gets saved with a given outlining method, it seems to to keep that method forever. The only way it seems to change it is to insert the file into a empty document based on a template having the desired method.

There is an extension you can install for LibreOffice that will permit you change the template of a document. Could you create the template you want that has the newer outlining method and then assign this new template as the template for an older file. Would this change the outlining method in the older file. I have not tried it yet myself. It might work.

Dan

Brian_Barker · November 8, 2014, 6:45pm

I've used LO and its predecessors for about 15 years now. I recently noticed that the dialog boxes for outline numbering have changed. In the past, under the "position" tab for outline numbering, the numbering position was determined by settings such as "width of numbering" and "minimum space to text." Now the numbering position is determined by settings such as "numbering followed by" and "aligned at." This newer dialog seems to follow the practice of MS Word and will, I think, increase compatibility of LO .doc files.

But, now I have a mishmash in my documents. Older documents have the older dialog boxes and newer documents have the newer, even though I load them into the same instance of LO. I'd like to get all my documents working the same, but I've seen no way of changing the outline numbering in old documents to match the newer dialogs. I've played with some of the "compatibility" settings under "tools/options," but I've found nothing that seems to have any effect.

This change was evidently inherited from OpenOffice.org. The current OpenOffice help text explains:
'The Position tab page looks different for documents using the new position and spacing attributes introduced with OpenOffice.org 3.0, or documents using the old attributes from versions before 3.0. The new version of this tab page shows the controls "Numbering followed by", "Numbering alignment", "Aligned at", and "Indent at". The old version of this tab page that can be seen in an old numbered or bulleted list shows the controls "Indent", "Width of numbering", "Minimum space numbering <-> text", and "Numbering alignment".'

Once a document has been created with outline numbering, is there a way to make LO change the way it establishes the position of the numbering (i.e., with "numbering followed by" a tab, rather than "width of numbering.") It seems to be an either/or with LO, and I can't figure out how it decides which dialog option to give me.

It appears that it decides on the basis of how any existing numbering is already represented in the document. Presumably the only way to change existing documents would be somehow to remove all traces of the older technique. What happens if you remove all outline numbering from the document, save it, reopen it, and attempt to reapply the numbering? You could try this on a copy.

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker

Mark_Bourne · November 11, 2014, 10:21pm

Virgil Arrington wrote:

Are all the documents (old and new) in ODF Text (.odt) format? Or are
the older ones in Word (.doc) or OpenOffice 1.0 (.sxw) format? I'm
wondering if the options shown depend on the format of the document.

Both are (and were originally created as) .ODT files. The old one was
originally created on OpenOffice.org (I think 3.2) about 7 years ago.

Perhaps try opening one of the older documents and use File > Save
As... to give it a new name, ensuring ODF Text Document is selected
for the file type. Then close, and open the newly saved document. Does
it now have the new options?

No change in the old file.

I'm not surprised, if they were all .ODT from the start.

By looking at the contextual help, it's apparent that there are
different options available based on the original file. .DOC files and
newer .ODT files seem to get the new option ("numbering followed by")
while older .ODT files have the older options ("width of numbering").

But, once a file gets saved with a given outlining method, it seems to
to keep that method forever. The only way it seems to change it is to
insert the file into a empty document based on a template having the
desired method.

Yes, it does sound like there are different ways the indenting can be saved within the ODT format, with older versions of LibreOffice / OpenOffice.org using one way and new versions using another way for new files (but still supporting the old, triggering different options in the dialog and saving back in the same way).

May be worth trying even if the original document is ODF, since it
might be an older version of ODF. I'm not sure though whether using
save as would save the new file in the same ODF version as the
original or whether the new version would be converted to ODF 1.2.

If there's nothing confidential in them, are you able to post examples
of an older and a newer document, showing each set of options? I'm not
likely to have much time to look into them myself for a few weeks, but
perhaps others might spot some difference.

I'll try to put something together to post to demonstrate the issues.

btw, does this list accept screen shots in emails? If so, I can just
send an email showing the different dialog boxes.

I don't think the list allows any attachments of any type, although I gather the Nabble interface can upload them somewhere and automatically include a link in the email. I don't recall noticing the two different sets of options, but think I understand what you mean about them. It would be the actual files I'm thinking might be useful, not just screenshots of the dialogs, to see what difference there is within the files to trigger the different dialogs. Might give some clue as to how to convert them.

Mark.