Outline Numbering

users
#1

I've got some strange behavior with outline numbering. I've created a combination of paragraph styles and an outline number schemes to come up with the following hierarchy. The numbering is governed through the Outline Numbering dialog and the names are my paragraphs styles that I have associated with each outline level.

1. Heading 1 (Outline Level 1)
1.1 Heading 2 (Outline Level 2)
1.1.1 Heading 3 (Outline Level 3)
1.1.1.1 Heading 4 (Outline Level 4)
1.1.1.1.1 Heading 5 (Outline Level 5)
1. Outline 1 (Outline Level 6)
     A. Outline 2 (Outline Level 7)
         1) Outline 3 (Outline Level 8)
             a. Outline 4 (Outline Level 9)
                 i. Outline 5 (Outline Level 10)

Generally it works really well and I have used it often. However, I've noticed that, if I insert a subordinate Outline style in between my Heading styles, then subordinate Heading style numbering can get off. An example:

1. Heading 1
     1. Outline 1
     2. Outline 1
2. Heading 1
     1. Outline 1
2.2 Heading 2

This instance of "Heading 2" should be numbered 2.1, not 2.2. Now, if I place it immediately after the second Heading 1, it is properly numbered, e.g.

1. Heading 1
     1. Outline 1
     2. Outline 1
2. Heading 1
2.1 Heading 2

But, by inserting a subordinate level, the Heading 2 is numbered 2.2 rather than 2.1.

Anybody else notice this behavior? Is it a bug? Or just weird?

Virgil

#2

Virgil Arrington wrote:

I've got some strange behavior with outline numbering. I've created a
combination of paragraph styles and an outline number schemes to come up
with the following hierarchy. The numbering is governed through the
Outline Numbering dialog and the names are my paragraphs styles that I
have associated with each outline level.

1. Heading 1 (Outline Level 1)
1.1 Heading 2 (Outline Level 2)
1.1.1 Heading 3 (Outline Level 3)
1.1.1.1 Heading 4 (Outline Level 4)
1.1.1.1.1 Heading 5 (Outline Level 5)
1. Outline 1 (Outline Level 6)
     A. Outline 2 (Outline Level 7)
         1) Outline 3 (Outline Level 8)
             a. Outline 4 (Outline Level 9)
                 i. Outline 5 (Outline Level 10)

Generally it works really well and I have used it often. However, I've
noticed that, if I insert a subordinate Outline style in between my
Heading styles, then subordinate Heading style numbering can get off. An
example:

1. Heading 1
     1. Outline 1
     2. Outline 1
2. Heading 1
     1. Outline 1
2.2 Heading 2

This instance of "Heading 2" should be numbered 2.1, not 2.2. Now, if I
place it immediately after the second Heading 1, it is properly
numbered, e.g.

1. Heading 1
     1. Outline 1
     2. Outline 1
2. Heading 1
2.1 Heading 2

But, by inserting a subordinate level, the Heading 2 is numbered 2.2
rather than 2.1.

Anybody else notice this behavior? Is it a bug? Or just weird?

I think skipping outline numbering levels, in this case from level 1 (Heading 1) to level 6 (Outline 1) implicitly inserts the intermediate levels for numbering purposes. It's more obvious with styles which show all the numbering levels. e.g. if you were to insert a Heading 5 after the Heading 1, it is numbered 2.1.1.1.1, as if there were a 2.1, 2.1.1 and 2.1.1.1 in between. Thus the next Heading 2 inserted is 2.2:
   1. Heading 1
        1.1.1.1.1 Heading 5
        1.1.1.1.2 Heading 5
   2. Heading 1
        2.1.1.1.1 Heading 5
   2.2 Heading 2

Mark.

#3

Thanks. That makes sense. So my problem was trying to combine heading and outline styles in a single series of 10 outline levels. My outline styles essentially became subordinate heading styles.

Virgil

#4

I think I was too easily persuaded on this matter. As I think about it further, I think LO is treating the outline numbering wrongly. I've compared LO with LaTeX and LaTeX treats the heading numbering differently.

Let's keep it simple for my illustration. In LO, let's say I have three heading styles (Heading 1, Heading 2, and Heading 3). If I put them in order, I get (properly):

1. Heading 1
1.1 Heading 2
1.1.1 Heading 3

This corresponds to LaTeX's Section, Subsection, and Subsubsection environments, which appear as follows (again properly):

1. Section
1.1 Subsection
1.1.1 Subsubsection

But, if I switch the second and third headings, LO and LaTeX provide different results. In LO, I get

1. Heading 1
1.1.1 Heading 3
1.2 Heading 2

but, with LaTeX, I get,

1. Section
1.0.1 Subsubsection
1.1 Subsection

I think LaTeX's treatment is mathematically more correct. Until I actual use the second heading, it's value should remain "0", which is reflected in LaTeX's second example. But, LO gives it a value of "1" even though I've not yet used it. Thus, in LO, my first use of the second Heading is given a value of "2" as in 1.2, whereas in LaTeX, my first use of the second heading is given a value of 1 as in 1.1.

I think LaTeX has it right.

I tried changing the starting value of Heading 2 to "0", but that messes things up when I use the levels in order, so that's not the solution.

Funny thing is that I've just noticed this behavior. I don't recall seeing this happen in earlier versions of LO. I'm currently using 4.4.5.2.

In fact, I just loaded two LO documents, one an old one where the numbering acts like LaTeX, and a newer one, where the numbering acts like the current LO. My outline numbering settings are the same and my styles are similar (with different names). For the life of me I can find no setting between the two documents that is different that could explain the different style of outline numbering. I'll keep looking, but for now, it's just weird.

I've noticed other strange behavior with LO's outline numbering. Sometimes, the "Position" settings are in terms of the "width of the numbering." At other times, it is in terms of what is placed after the number, a space, tab, or nothing.

curiouser and curiouser.

Virgil

#5

I'm beginning to think there is a definite bug here.

I just renamed my user profile, and opened a brand new document using the default template. I then experimented with the following steps.

Step 1: I setup three outline styles. I then typed the name of the styles and applied the appropriate outline level to each line:

1 Heading 1
1.1 Heading 2
1.1.1 Heading 3

So far so good.

Step 2: I then demoted the second line to outline level three and promoted the third line to outline level two (without changing text on each line) and got the following:

1 Heading 1
1.1.1 Heading 2 [actually Heading 3 paragraph style]
1.2 Heading 3 [actually Heading 2 paragraph style]

Step 3: Then, out of curiosity, I applied the "Default Style" to the second line and got the following:

1 Heading 1
Heading 2 [actually "Default Style"]
1.1 Heading 3

Step 4: I then reapplied Heading 3 to the second line and got the following:

1 Heading 1
1.1.1 Heading 2 [actually Heading 3 paragraph style]
1.1 Heading 3 [actually Heading 2 paragraph style]

Notice that the third line did *not* change to 1.2 as it did in the second step. It remained 1.1

Step 5: I then hit Ctrl-z (undo) several times to get back to Step 3, and when I got there, I got the following:

1 Heading 1
Heading 2 [actually "Default Style"]
1.2 Heading 3

Notice that the third line is now 1.2 instead of 1.1 as it was in Step 3. (I noticed I could get the same result if, after Step 4, I promoted the second line to outline level 2 and then immediately demoted it again to outline level 3.

LO definitely doesn't like it when one applies outline levels out of order, but that is not uncommon in writing. I often use outlines like the following:

1. Heading 1

     A. Normal text (outline level 6)

         i. Normal text (outline level 7)

1.x Heading 2

     A. Normal text (outline level 6)

         i. Normal text (outline level 7)

In short, I think LO is confused on outline numbering. Or else, I'm confused in how to set them up and use them.

The only way I know to setup an outline hierarchy is through "Tools" "Outline Numbering" which only allows one outline hierarchy at a time. So I have to set up both my Headings and Normal text outline levels in one place. But, this requires that I use them out of order as I mix headings and normal text together.

Virgil

#6

Virgil Arrington wrote:

I'm beginning to think there is a definite bug here.

I just renamed my user profile, and opened a brand new document using
the default template. I then experimented with the following steps.

Step 1: I setup three outline styles. I then typed the name of the
styles and applied the appropriate outline level to each line:

1 Heading 1
1.1 Heading 2
1.1.1 Heading 3

So far so good.

Step 2: I then demoted the second line to outline level three and
promoted the third line to outline level two (without changing text on
each line) and got the following:

1 Heading 1
1.1.1 Heading 2 [actually Heading 3 paragraph style]
1.2 Heading 3 [actually Heading 2 paragraph style]

Step 3: Then, out of curiosity, I applied the "Default Style" to the
second line and got the following:

1 Heading 1
Heading 2 [actually "Default Style"]
1.1 Heading 3

Step 4: I then reapplied Heading 3 to the second line and got the
following:

1 Heading 1
1.1.1 Heading 2 [actually Heading 3 paragraph style]
1.1 Heading 3 [actually Heading 2 paragraph style]

Notice that the third line did *not* change to 1.2 as it did in the
second step. It remained 1.1

That does seem inconsistent with Step 2. Worth checking if it happens with the latest version and then filing a bug report I think, if it's not already reported.

Step 5: I then hit Ctrl-z (undo) several times to get back to Step 3,
and when I got there, I got the following:

1 Heading 1
Heading 2 [actually "Default Style"]
1.2 Heading 3

Notice that the third line is now 1.2 instead of 1.1 as it was in Step
3. (I noticed I could get the same result if, after Step 4, I promoted
the second line to outline level 2 and then immediately demoted it again
to outline level 3.

I've noticed undo seems to be a bit flaky lately, in that it doesn't always return everything to how it was. It's as if performing some action triggers other things to happen, and undo reverses the action but not the side-effects. Things like that should probably be reported as bugs.

LO definitely doesn't like it when one applies outline levels out of
order, but that is not uncommon in writing. I often use outlines like
the following:

1. Heading 1

     A. Normal text (outline level 6)

         i. Normal text (outline level 7)

1.x Heading 2

     A. Normal text (outline level 6)

         i. Normal text (outline level 7)

In short, I think LO is confused on outline numbering. Or else, I'm
confused in how to set them up and use them.

I'm not much of an expert, but I suspect that's not how outline numbering is intended to be used. I think it's more like for chapters in a text book, where you wouldn't have a Chapter 3 followed by Chapter 3.x.1 without having a Chapter 3.1 in between. The outline numbering can then be used to create the table of contents (which wouldn't usually include your "Normal text" paragraphs).

The only way I know to setup an outline hierarchy is through "Tools"
"Outline Numbering" which only allows one outline hierarchy at a time.
So I have to set up both my Headings and Normal text outline levels in
one place. But, this requires that I use them out of order as I mix
headings and normal text together.

I think list styles should do what you want for the "normal text" sections. Use the Heading X styles and outline numbering for your headings, and create a list style for applying the A, i numbering to your normal text. On the list style settings, look into the Outline tab, which has preset styles for multi-level lists, pick one which is close to what you want and then tweak it on the Options tab.

#7

I tried list styles, which gave me bullets. I then tried numbering styles for my normal text, and then selected an appropriate outline list from the drop down box. But, then I got the following results:

  1 Heading 1

1. Text

     a. Text

         i. Text

             A. Text

  2 Heading 1

2. Text

3. Text

    2.1 Heading 2

4. Text

5. Text

As you can see, my normal text doesn't start over in numbering after the headings. I think the reason for this is that it is not in the same outline hierarchy as the headings outline. When I checked online for bug reports on outline numbering, I found that many were complaining that the Numbering styles just keep going up in value even with intervening text between the lists. That's what I found here. I couldn't see any setting that would allow me to tell the numbering to start over after each heading, which is what one would want in an outline.

This is why I originally set up my outline in one 10 level list with both heading and normal levels in the same hierarchy. And, until recently, it seemed to work for me.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep playing with it.

(and I, too, love Spam, at least the edible kind)

Virgil

#8

I'm not much of an expert, but I suspect that's not how outline numbering is intended to be used. I think it's more like for chapters in a text book, where you wouldn't have a Chapter 3 followed by Chapter 3.x.1 without having a Chapter 3.1 in between. The outline numbering can then be used to create the table of contents (which wouldn't usually include your "Normal text" paragraphs).

I think list styles should do what you want for the "normal text" sections. Use the Heading X styles and outline numbering for your headings, and create a list style for applying the A, i numbering to your normal text. On the list style settings, look into the Outline tab, which has preset styles for multi-level lists, pick one which is close to what you want and then tweak it on the Options tab.

I tried list styles, which gave me bullets. I then tried numbering styles for my normal text, and then selected an appropriate outline list from the drop down box. But, then I got the following results:

1 Heading 1

1. Text

    a. Text

        i. Text

            A. Text

2 Heading 1

2. Text

3. Text

   2.1 Heading 2

4. Text

5. Text

As you can see, my normal text doesn't start over in numbering after the headings. I think the reason for this is that it is not in the same outline hierarchy as the headings outline. When I checked online for bug reports on outline numbering, I found that many were complaining that the Numbering styles just keep going up in value even with intervening text between the lists. That's what I found here. I couldn't see any setting that would allow me to tell the numbering to start over after each heading, which is what one would want in an outline.

I found if you right click on the TXT numbering and restart numbering I could get numbered lists inside my outline numbering. I do this in my manuals where outline numbering is for chapters and the lists are for step by step procedures.
Steve

#9

Thanks for the tip and it works.

But, I'm sure you'll appreciate that this is defeating one of the purposes of using paragraph styles. Using this method, one has to go into each paragraph following a heading and, using direct formatting, right click and select "restart numbering." And, then if you move paragraphs around, you have to go back and do it all over again. I've worked so hard to do away with direct formatting that this solution seems like a real step backward. There should be a style-level setting of "Restart Numbering after Intervening Paragraph" or something like that. If I recall, there is a bug report/feature request asking for this feature at the style formatting level.

Virgil