Pootle enhancements

l10n
#1

Hi all,

I've seen some remarks on Pootle search or handling, would it be
possible that you (Kharagoth for example :slight_smile: open a page on the wiki,
under the l10n category to collect these requests? That will help if we
want to have them implemented in the future. Thanks in advance.
Sophie

#2

Hi everyone

Could someone please explain how and where to upload the User Guides ODT and PDF files for languages other than English? How is it that the files at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications have paths such as this:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d8/GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt

while the code has: [[Media:GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt|ODT]] or  ?

The documentation using_odfauthors.odt only talks about the English version. I want to know what the localization teams do.

Regards
Donald

#3

Hi Donald,

Hi everyone

Could someone please explain how and where to upload the User Guides ODT
and PDF files for languages other than English? How is it that the files
at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications have
paths such as this:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d8/GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt

while the code has: [[Media:GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt|ODT]]
or  ?

The documentation using_odfauthors.odt only talks about the English
version. I want to know what the localization teams do.

You can build a wiki area in your language and place the documentation
there. This is what we have done for the FR documentation (see
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides_utilisateur_officiels)
At the top of most of the pages on the wiki, you have a language code:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation and don't forget to
create a Category for your language.

Kind regards
Sophie

#4

Hi :slight_smile:
Please could people avoid using spaces and _ in those wiki addresses?  It's not really relevant to Sophie's example because the # and after is a heading within a page rather than part of the page's address.

Underscores vanish in the default automatic formatting in emails and documents so it makes it difficult to trouble-shoot when someone has a problem reaching the page.  For example these 2 addresses look the same but 1 works and the other doesn't;
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides utilisateur officiels
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides_utilisateur_officiels
If you look really closely you might be lucky enough to see the slight bulges in the 2nd link but is the one with the bulges always the right one to click?

Spaces often get replaced by %20 which non-geeks find difficult to read and that makes them avoid reading any of the rest of the url so they end up clicking on blatantly dodgy links in other places and then being reluctant to click on our legitimate ones. 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides%20utilisateur%20officiels
Over the past couple of weeks we have had a few problems with the % being replaced by something like %24 which makes the line increasingly complicated
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides%2420utilisateur%2420officiels

"CamelCase" is better because it doesn't get so badly messed up so easily.  At first you will find it a little awkward to read but even non-geeks manage it and are not scared off by it.  The example would be

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#GuidesUtilisateurOfficiels

Of course that link wont really work but is just given as an example of how a wiki address might be written.  The French page is really just simply

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr

Which looks really simple and elegant to me. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#5

Hi :slight_smile:
I think i missed the point.

In the original posting it gave some coding of which the important part was;
Media:GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt

I don't know how to upload files to the wiki!  The wiki is different from the ODFAuthors site.  The ODFAuthors site is used during editing and proofreading so that only members of the team can access the chapters of the guides.  Once the chapters are ready they get uploaded to the wiki.  Almost anyone can read them or download them from the wiki.

Eventually (usually a week or 2 after all the chapters of a guide have been done and the whole guide put together) the official LibreOffice website puts up links to the chapters and guide that are on the wiki.  Around the same time the guides are given to the Lulu bookstore to sell.  Jean Weber of the Documentation Team sorts out everything in this paragraph but it would be good for other people to learn how to do all this or even just parts of it.

Getting back to the code on the wiki;
1. 
  = a space (same as in html  and sometimes other bits of html works too but mostly the wiki language tries to 'simplify')
Sometimes if you try to put a space at the end of a line it gets lost.  Also if you have 2 or more spaces together the wiki reduces it to just 1 space so if you wanted 3 spaces you could break it up by using the " " thing in the middle, such as "   ".  For 5 spaces "     ".  It is the same in html and just makes the whole thing look a lot more confusing than it really is.

2. 
The [[ and ]] marks are to tell the wiki that there is a link in the middle.  Inside the first part is the address you want people to go to when they click on the link.  The bit after the | is what shows on the page.  So people only see the "ODT" part but when they click on it they go to
Media:GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt

3. 
The full address in the example is really
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d8/GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt
but because it's within the LibreOffice wiki rather than an external link you can choose to use the shortened form
Media:GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt

4. 
I have a bad feeling that if you do want to use the full address and try to access the chapter as though it was external then you might have to switch to single [  ] marks instead of the double ones [[  ]].  Also you might need to remove the | and just use a space instead and it's possible you might need to switch around the 1st and 2nd parts, ie to make it
[[ODT https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d8/GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt]]
instead of
[[Media:GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt|ODT]]

5. 
I was just trying to get the page to read
ODT or PDF
with just the "ODT" and the "PDF" parts being clickable and with things neatly lined up under each other but it became a bit of a nightmare and the coding is a lot less elegant than i would have liked.  I tried to make it as easy as possible for documenters to be able to work out where to put their links and things but i am not brilliant at wiki-mark-up.

Different wikis do it different ways so you just have to experiment with them a bit sometimes.  Guides about how to write wiki-mark-up are often different from their implementation so they are good to get ideas from but then just have to play around and make use of the "Preview" tab near the top of the editing window.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

________________________________
From: Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Sophie Gautier <gautier.sophie@gmail.com>; "l10n@global.libreoffice.org" <l10n@global.libreoffice.org>
Sent: Monday, 27 May 2013, 9:30
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Uploading LO User Guides

Hi :slight_smile:
Please could people avoid using spaces and _ in those wiki addresses?  It's not really relevant to Sophie's example because the # and after is a heading within a page rather than part of the page's address.

Underscores vanish in the default automatic formatting in emails and documents so it makes it difficult to trouble-shoot when someone has a problem reaching the page.  For example these 2 addresses look the same but 1 works and the other doesn't;
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides utilisateur officiels
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides_utilisateur_officiels
If you look really closely you might be lucky enough to see the slight bulges in the 2nd link but is the one with the bulges always the right one to click?

Spaces often get replaced by %20 which non-geeks find difficult to read and that makes them avoid reading any of the rest of the url so they end up clicking on blatantly dodgy links in other places and then being reluctant to click on our legitimate ones. 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides%20utilisateur%20officiels
Over the past couple of weeks we have had a few problems with the % being replaced by something like %24 which makes the line increasingly complicated
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides%2420utilisateur%2420officiels

"CamelCase" is better because it doesn't get so badly messed up so easily.  At first you will find it a little awkward to read but even non-geeks manage it and are not scared off by it.  The example would

be

#6

Hi :slight_smile:
I think Pootle has it's own range of problems.  I think all of them have their own set of problems.

I used to quite like the Rosetta thing at Ubuntu Launchpad because it showed bar-charts and such to make it easier to see how much had been done and how much left to do and how much was waiting to be reviewed or pushed.  Then different languages could compare and even compete a bit to see who would finish first.  Effectively making it into a video game and everyone enjoys games, surely?  However, breaking it all down into such tiny strings meant a lot of context was lost.

So, is it really a good idea to change systems or is it better to stick with what is being used?

Again it's just a question that i really don't know the answer to.  I have seen a couple of people talking about Pootle here but i don't know what other people think. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#7

Hello Tom,

Hi :slight_smile:
I think Pootle has it's own range of problems. I think all of them have their own set of problems.

I used to quite like the Rosetta thing at Ubuntu Launchpad because it showed bar-charts and such to make it easier to see how much had been done and how much left to do and how much was waiting to be reviewed or pushed. Then different languages could compare and even compete a bit to see who would finish first. Effectively making it into a video game and everyone enjoys games, surely? However, breaking it all down into such tiny strings meant a lot of context was lost.

So, is it really a good idea to change systems or is it better to stick with what is being used?

Again it's just a question that i really don't know the answer to. I have seen a couple of people talking about Pootle here but i don't know what other people think.

So, if you don't really know the answer to that, you should refrain from
posting. Seriously. This is a mailing list for people who *work* and
contribute to LibreOffice, not your local pub.

Thanks,

Charles.

#8

Yes, please Tom, if you don't know, just refrain to give your opinion.
You're not working on localization, so you can't evaluate Pootle and
that was even not the topic of the post. So stay focused on the topic,
make your messages short and post only if you have a real answer.
Thanks!

Kind regards
Sophie

#9

Hi :slight_smile:
Ubuntu translators have had a few problems with Pootle over the last few weeks and i think even had to post bug-reports.

Sorry i bothered to try to warn you off. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#10

Hi, Sophie

Hi Donald,

Hi everyone

Could someone please explain how and where to upload the User Guides ODT
and PDF files for languages other than English? How is it that the files
athttps://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications have
paths such as this:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d8/GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt

while the code has: [[Media:GS4001-IntroducingLibreOffice.odt|ODT]]
or&nbsp; ?

The documentation using_odfauthors.odt only talks about the English
version. I want to know what the localization teams do.

You can build a wiki area in your language and place the documentation
there. This is what we have done for the FR documentation (see
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr#Guides_utilisateur_officiels)
At the top of most of the pages on the wiki, you have a language code:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation and don't forget to
create a Category for your language.

Kind regards
Sophie

Thank you, especially for your comment about creating a category page. I had not done that previously but it is pretty painless to do.
The upload "just worked", and it sorted out those strange paths automagically. I added three pages based on the relevant EN and FR pages:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/eo
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/eo
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:EO

When I uploaded the ODT and PDF files I was asked to choose a copyright type. I chose Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/>, I presume that is okay?
When I uploaded a PDF file the Wiki complained that the file had the same name as the previous ODT file (different extension of course) but I ignored that.

Regards
Donald

#11

Hi Tom

I suggest that the prompt be made more helpful, including that the warning can be ignored if the extensions are different or the user wants to replace the file with a new version. I leave the wording to someone who knows all the ins and outs.

Regards
Donald