[Pootle] Translation help for unit 40270452

[thackert]

Hello @ll,
sorry for bother you again, but in the above mentioned unit
(https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_help/translate.html#unit=40270452)
I found the following text with my parallel installed LO Version:
4.1.0.0.beta2+
Build ID: 5ae6803a21f5e2b6e107ee405e9b3346105c646
TinderBox: Linux-x86_64@31-Release-Configuration-RHEL5-Baseline,
Branch:libreoffice-4-1, under Debian Testing AMD64:

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out there,
users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended mode, that
uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is 'bug-compatible' to older
OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the ODF 1.2 Extended (compat)
mode was introduced.
</quote>

How is that paragraph meant to read? There are several users out
there, who uses old ODF versions (but what does "legacy" mean in
that context?)? I seem to understand it that way, that there are
several users out there, who still use the old ODF file format, so
that the developers have "invented" the ODF 1.2 extended mode
(correct me, if I am wrong ... ), so that these users can use it
with their older files (not sure, what "stuff depreacted" should
exactly means, though ... ). Am I right? Or could someone explain
it in a better way (as well as translate it perhaps ... )?
Sorry for the inconvenience
Thomas.

[timar]

I think Thorsten can answer this, he wrote this sentence.

Thanks,
Andras

[thackert]

Hello Andras, *,

sorry for bother you again, but in the above mentioned unit

(https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_help/translate.html#unit=40270452)

I found the following text with my parallel installed LO Version:
4.1.0.0.beta2+
Build ID: 5ae6803a21f5e2b6e107ee405e9b3346105c646
TinderBox: Linux-x86_64@31-Release-Configuration-RHEL5-Baseline,
Branch:libreoffice-4-1, under Debian Testing AMD64:

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out
there, users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended
mode, that uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is
'bug-compatible' to older OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the
ODF 1.2 Extended (compat) mode was introduced.
</quote>

How is that paragraph meant to read? There are several users out
there, who uses old ODF versions (but what does "legacy" mean in
that context?)? I seem to understand it that way, that there are
several users out there, who still use the old ODF file format,
so that the developers have "invented" the ODF 1.2 extended mode
(correct me, if I am wrong ... ), so that these users can use
it with their older files (not sure, what "stuff depreacted"
should exactly means, though ... ). Am I right? Or could
someone explain it in a better way (as well as translate it
perhaps ... )? Sorry for the inconvenience
Thomas.

I think Thorsten can answer this, he wrote this sentence.

thanks for the information Than I have to wait for Thorsten ...

Have a nice evening
Thomas.

[sophi]

Hi Thomas,

Hello @ll,
sorry for bother you again, but in the above mentioned unit
(https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_help/translate.html#unit=40270452)
I found the following text with my parallel installed LO Version:
4.1.0.0.beta2+
Build ID: 5ae6803a21f5e2b6e107ee405e9b3346105c646
TinderBox: Linux-x86_64@31-Release-Configuration-RHEL5-Baseline,
Branch:libreoffice-4-1, under Debian Testing AMD64:

I had the same questioning yesterday evening, I found the text too
technical/geeky for that kind of explanation.

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out there,
users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended mode, that
uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is 'bug-compatible' to older
OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the ODF 1.2 Extended (compat)
mode was introduced.
</quote>

How is that paragraph meant to read? There are several users out
there, who uses old ODF versions (but what does "legacy" mean in
that context?)? I seem to understand it that way, that there are
several users out there, who still use the old ODF file format, so
that the developers have "invented" the ODF 1.2 extended mode
(correct me, if I am wrong ... ), so that these users can use it
with their older files (not sure, what "stuff depreacted" should
exactly means, though ... ). Am I right? Or could someone explain
it in a better way (as well as translate it perhaps ... )?

I left out the words [consumer], [stuff] and [bug-compatible], I
translated it something like that:
There is still some pre-ODF12 and ODF1.2 only in use out there, where
our users want a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended mode, that
uses deprecated functions in 1.2, and/or is compatible to older OOo
version. Therefore the ODF 1.2 Extended (compat) mode was introduced.

But as you, I'm still not really convinced by my translation.

Cheers
Sophie

[thackert]

Hello Sophie, *,

sorry for bother you again, but in the above mentioned unit

(https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_help/translate.html#unit=40270452)

I found the following text with my parallel installed LO Version:
4.1.0.0.beta2+
Build ID: 5ae6803a21f5e2b6e107ee405e9b3346105c646
TinderBox: Linux-x86_64@31-Release-Configuration-RHEL5-Baseline,
Branch:libreoffice-4-1, under Debian Testing AMD64:

I had the same questioning yesterday evening, I found the text too
technical/geeky for that kind of explanation.

"G"

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out
there, users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended
mode, that uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is
'bug-compatible' to older OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the
ODF 1.2 Extended (compat) mode was introduced.
</quote>

How is that paragraph meant to read? There are several users out
there, who uses old ODF versions (but what does "legacy" mean in
that context?)? I seem to understand it that way, that there are
several users out there, who still use the old ODF file format,
so that the developers have "invented" the ODF 1.2 extended mode
(correct me, if I am wrong ... ), so that these users can use
it with their older files (not sure, what "stuff depreacted"
should exactly means, though ... ). Am I right? Or could
someone explain it in a better way (as well as translate it
perhaps ... )?

I left out the words [consumer], [stuff] and [bug-compatible], I
translated it something like that:
There is still some pre-ODF12 and ODF1.2 only in use out there,
where our users want a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended
mode, that uses deprecated functions in 1.2, and/or is compatible
to older OOo version. Therefore the ODF 1.2 Extended (compat) mode
was introduced.

Ah, O.K.

But as you, I'm still not really convinced by my translation.

But it is much better understandable than Thorsten's original ...
Thanks a lot
Thomas.

[Tom_Davies]

Hi
The quote is a real mess.  It looks like some contortion i might write on a bad day.  How about going for a total re-write?  Something like

"ODF 1.2 (Extended)(compat) is written to be more compatible with ODF 1.0 and 1.1 files, as well as with files that use plain ODF 1.2 without the Extended features."

and just leave out the excuses about why the new format got written.

Regards from 
Tom

[Christian_Lohmaier]

Hi *,

Hello @ll,
sorry for bother you again, but in the above mentioned unit

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out there,
users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended mode, that
uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is 'bug-compatible' to older
OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the ODF 1.2 Extended (compat)
mode was introduced.
</quote>

How is that paragraph meant to read? There are several users out
there, who uses old ODF versions (but what does "legacy" mean in
that context?)?

legacy means old/end-of-life/outdated.

The meaning is that there on the one hand there a still quite a lot of
people who use software that doesn't really support ODF 1.2 (legacy
pre-ODF1.2 consumers), but on the other hand there is software that
only reads ODF 1.2 documents (ODF1.2-only consumers).

To bring those two together, a "compatible" mode has been added, that
uses deprecated stuff (you should no longer use that stuff in ODF-1.2,
but it does so nevertheless to allow pre-ODF1.2 software to read the
file as intended by the author of the document), but as it is still
ODF1.2 (although not a "clean" one), also the "ODF1.2-only" software
is happy.

I seem to understand it that way, that there are
several users out there, who still use the old ODF file format, so
that the developers have "invented" the ODF 1.2 extended mode
(correct me, if I am wrong ... ), so that these users can use it
with their older files (not sure, what "stuff depreacted" should
exactly means, though ... ).

No it is about allowing old software to read newly created (or
re-saved :-)) ODF 1.2 documents

Old files are not affected at all. You need to open and save in the
"ODF1.2 compat" format to change the document.

So if you're only using current versions of LibreOffice, you don't
need that compatibility format. But when you exchange/process
documents with non-LibreOffice (and non-OpenOffice, or just ancient
versions) software that doesn't understand ODF 1.2 format, then this
format will (probably) help.

ciao
Christian

[thackert]

Good morning Christian, *,

sorry for bother you again, but in the above mentioned unit

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out
there, users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended
mode, that uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is
'bug-compatible' to older OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the
ODF 1.2 Extended (compat) mode was introduced.
</quote>

How is that paragraph meant to read? There are several users out
there, who uses old ODF versions (but what does "legacy" mean in
that context?)?

legacy means old/end-of-life/outdated.

hm. But is it not doubled by the "pre" suffix?

The meaning is that there on the one hand there a still quite a
lot of people who use software that doesn't really support ODF 1.2
(legacy pre-ODF1.2 consumers), but on the other hand there is
software that only reads ODF 1.2 documents (ODF1.2-only
consumers).

O.K.

To bring those two together, a "compatible" mode has been added,
that uses deprecated stuff (you should no longer use that stuff in
ODF-1.2, but it does so nevertheless to allow pre-ODF1.2 software
to read the file as intended by the author of the document), but
as it is still ODF1.2 (although not a "clean" one), also the
"ODF1.2-only" software is happy.

O.K:

I seem to understand it that way, that there are
several users out there, who still use the old ODF file format,
so that the developers have "invented" the ODF 1.2 extended mode
(correct me, if I am wrong ... ), so that these users can use
it with their older files (not sure, what "stuff depreacted"
should exactly means, though ... ).

No it is about allowing old software to read newly created (or
re-saved :-)) ODF 1.2 documents

Ah, O.K: Than I have interpreted this section completely wrong ... :
(

Old files are not affected at all. You need to open and save in
the "ODF1.2 compat" format to change the document.

So if you're only using current versions of LibreOffice, you don't
need that compatibility format. But when you exchange/process
documents with non-LibreOffice (and non-OpenOffice, or just
ancient versions) software that doesn't understand ODF 1.2 format,
then this format will (probably) help.

Thanks for your explanation Now I only need to get it to a good
translation in Pootle ...
Read you
Thomas.

[thackert]

Hello Tom, *;

The quote is a real mess. It looks like some contortion i might
write on a bad day. How about going for a total re-write?

I think, Thorsten should decide it ...

Something like

"ODF 1.2 (Extended)(compat) is written to be more compatible with
ODF 1.0 and 1.1 files, as well as with files that use plain ODF
1.2 without the Extended features."

Sounds much better ...

and just leave out the excuses about why the new format got
written.

Well, I think we should describe "ODF 1.2 (Extended)" in the OLH, as
I for myself, was wondering in the past, what this should be for ...

Thanks for the answer
Thomas.

[Christian_Lohmaier]

Hi Thomas, *,

Hello Tom, *;

"ODF 1.2 (Extended)(compat) is written to be more compatible with
ODF 1.0 and 1.1 files, as well as with files that use plain ODF
1.2 without the Extended features."

Sounds much better ...

No, not better, since "files" are not compatible to each other. It is
software compatibility that is the focus. To be able to load the
compat-1.2 documents with old/legacy software that doesn't properly
support ODF 1.2

But as most people won't read help anyway .. ;->

ciao
Christian

[Tom_Davies]

Hi
Yes, i think that was the same thing that i missed from the original quote.  Actually i think my most recent suggestion still misses the point that this 1 single format is usable by programs that only understand any 1 of the 3 older formats.  So, it is a big a big improvement on having 3 different possible choices and then trying to work out which is needed for a given case.  I wish i had seen this email before i wrote my last post to the l10n list!

Regards from

Tom

[thackert]

Hello Christian, *,

"ODF 1.2 (Extended)(compat) is written to be more compatible
with ODF 1.0 and 1.1 files, as well as with files that use plain
ODF 1.2 without the Extended features."

Sounds much better ...

No, not better, since "files" are not compatible to each other. It
is software compatibility that is the focus. To be able to load
the compat-1.2 documents with old/legacy software that doesn't
properly support ODF 1.2

but how would you rewrite the section to be more understandable to
"normal" lusers ;? And translate it?

But as most people won't read help anyway .. ;->

But then we could stop writing/translating the OLH ...
Have fun
Thomas.

[thb]

Hi Thomas, list,

sorry for being late to the show -

Thomas Hackert wrote:

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out there,
users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended mode, that
uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is 'bug-compatible' to older
OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the ODF 1.2 Extended (compat)
mode was introduced.
</quote>

Happy to have this text thrown out the window, torn to pieces &
rewritten - technically, what happens are two things when 1.2 extended
compat is chosen:

- we fallback to older, pre-1.2 encryption and signature algorithms,
   that were deprecated in ODF 1.2
- be bug-compatible to OOo and AOO for writing svg:d paths (that is
   used for polygons, e.g. on freeform curves or custom shapes in
   Impress)
- plus future additions to this set

All of this, as others outlined, to get slightly better interop with
older / less conformant ODF consumers. We don't default to that
option, since it would knowingly create substandard ODF files - we
rather encourage other applications to fix their bugs.

Since this is likely to be used for additional things found to cause
problems, or if/when we fix additional bugs in our ODF export, simply
listing the above items appeared not ideal to me. Usually it is
forgotten to update help, better use a generic text.

Hope that explains a bit, cheers,

-- Thorsten

[thackert]

Hello Thorsten, *,

sorry for being late to the show -

this could happen ...

Thomas Hackert wrote:

<quote>
With several legacy pre-ODF1.2 and ODF1.2-only consumers out
there, users wanted a more backward-compatible ODF 1.2 extended
mode, that uses stuff deprecated in 1.2, and/or is
'bug-compatible' to older OpenOffice.org versions. Therefore the
ODF 1.2 Extended (compat) mode was introduced.
</quote>

Happy to have this text thrown out the window, torn to pieces &
rewritten - technically, what happens are two things when 1.2
extended compat is chosen:

Does it mean, that this is available in Pootle to translate?

- we fallback to older, pre-1.2 encryption and signature
algorithms, that were deprecated in ODF 1.2
- be bug-compatible to OOo and AOO for writing svg:d paths (that
is used for polygons, e.g. on freeform curves or custom shapes in
Impress)
- plus future additions to this set

O.K.

All of this, as others outlined, to get slightly better interop
with older / less conformant ODF consumers. We don't default to
that option, since it would knowingly create substandard ODF files
- we rather encourage other applications to fix their bugs.

O.K.

Since this is likely to be used for additional things found to
cause problems, or if/when we fix additional bugs in our ODF
export, simply listing the above items appeared not ideal to me.
Usually it is forgotten to update help, better use a generic text.

O.K.

Hope that explains a bit, cheers,

It does
Thank you for your answer
Thomas.