Pootle

l10n
#1

Hello I am requesting access to write and review on the Pootle server pt-br

Thanks

Rogerio

#2

Hi Rogerio,

Hello I am requesting access to write and review on the Pootle server pt-br

Olivier will be able to grant you this access, please ask him.
Kind regards
Sophie

#3

Olivier, Can you give the access to Rogerio in the pootle for pt-BR?

Sophie, we can get a second person with admin privileges in the pt-BR pootle? We are trying to ensure free contribution of the Brazilian community in the project.

Thanks,
Claudio

#4

Hi Claudio,

2011.03.03 14:18, Claudio F Filho rašė:

Olivier, Can you give the access to Rogerio in the pootle for pt-BR?

Sophie, we can get a second person with admin privileges in the pt-BR pootle? We are trying to ensure free contribution of the Brazilian community in the project.

I'll answer this one, if you don't mind. The answer is: it's totally up to the team lead (Olivier, in this case). Our (well, at least my) policy is that Pootle administrators grant language admin rights for one person in a team, and leave that person responsible for delegating permissions (including those of a language admin) inside their team. I don't think an approach without such hierarchy would be good...

Hope this helps,
Rimas

#5

Hi Claudio,

2011.03.03 14:18, Claudio F Filho rašė:

Olivier, Can you give the access to Rogerio in the pootle for pt-BR?

Sophie, we can get a second person with admin privileges in the pt-BR
pootle? We are trying to ensure free contribution of the Brazilian community
in the project.

I'll answer this one, if you don't mind. The answer is: it's totally up to
the team lead (Olivier, in this case). Our (well, at least my) policy is
that Pootle administrators grant language admin rights for one person in a
team, and leave that person responsible for delegating permissions
(including those of a language admin) inside their team. I don't think an
approach without such hierarchy would be good...

If you don't mind, I will answer that.

1 - What if that supposed "team lead" become untrusted by the Community? You
are telling us that just one person can decide who is in, or out, of the
Pootle resources, based only in his own interest, despite the community
needs. That doesn't sound good to me...

2 - We, the Brazilian Community, are asking access to the resources for
translating LibreOffce to pt-br, and to colaborate with the project. At this
moment, just one person has access to that resources, and that person is not
answering to the community requests and needs, despite the fact he is a TDF
member and should do so. We do not recognize that person as a "team lead"
and it is publicly expressed in many places over the web. We have granted
access to almost all the other resources, like wiki, PT-BR website, mailing
lists, and so on, but not to Pootle, yet. We want Claudio F. Filho, who is
trusted by the Brazilian Community, and also a TDF member, to have the same
rights to approve new contributors to Pootle.

We want, at least, two more contributors added to Pootle, in order to work
on translations and make things transparent for the Brazilian Community:
Rogério and me. Rogério is asking for access for the last two weeks, without
an answer. I am requesting mine right now.

What should we do in Pootle's case?

Hope this helps,

Unfortunately, it didn't.

Rimas

Best regards.

#6

Hi,

Sorry. I do not understand: The LibreOffice should be done only by members
of the TDF or the free software community?

I need to know if I'm working for a software that is truly free or not.

[ ]´

#7

Hi Paulo,

2011.03.03 15:30, Paulo de Souza Lima rašė:

2011.03.03 14:18, Claudio F Filho rašė:

  Olivier, Can you give the access to Rogerio in the pootle for pt-BR?

Sophie, we can get a second person with admin privileges in the pt-BR
pootle? We are trying to ensure free contribution of the Brazilian community
in the project.

I'll answer this one, if you don't mind. The answer is: it's totally up to
the team lead (Olivier, in this case). Our (well, at least my) policy is
that Pootle administrators grant language admin rights for one person in a
team, and leave that person responsible for delegating permissions
(including those of a language admin) inside their team. I don't think an
approach without such hierarchy would be good...

If you don't mind, I will answer that.

1 - What if that supposed "team lead" become untrusted by the Community? You
are telling us that just one person can decide who is in, or out, of the
Pootle resources, based only in his own interest, despite the community
needs. That doesn't sound good to me...

Yes, that is a possibility. However, you should understand that most of us don't speak your language or know your situation. The only case of focibly "demoting" a language lead that I can easily imagine is if that lead would not only be inactive him/herself, but would also prevent others from contributing. While Olivier's actions could perhaps be seen as the latter (though AFAIK he does allow translation suggestions, which he then moderates himself), the statistics on Pootle prove that former is not the case – LibreOffice UI is 99% translated, and help is 100% translated into pt-BR, so he is active.

2 - We, the Brazilian Community, are asking access to the resources for
translating LibreOffce to pt-br, and to colaborate with the project. At this
moment, just one person has access to that resources, and that person is not
answering to the community requests and needs, despite the fact he is a TDF
member and should do so. We do not recognize that person as a "team lead"
and it is publicly expressed in many places over the web. We have granted
access to almost all the other resources, like wiki, PT-BR website, mailing
lists, and so on, but not to Pootle, yet. We want Claudio F. Filho, who is
trusted by the Brazilian Community, and also a TDF member, to have the same
rights to approve new contributors to Pootle.

I think this should be sorted out within your team/community. I don't think there is an official process inside TDF to resolve such conflicts. It would be nice to have one though, maybe the TDF officials could craft a fair policy for such cases?

In any case, I think that outsiders (from your team's PoV) should not generally act as judges for the reasons stated above. They may simply not be informed well enough.

We want, at least, two more contributors added to Pootle, in order to work
on translations and make things transparent for the Brazilian Community:
Rogério and me. Rogério is asking for access for the last two weeks, without
an answer. I am requesting mine right now.

What should we do in Pootle's case?

Honestly, I don't know... I can see a few options though. The civilzed way is to engage into a dialog with Olivier and sort out your conflicts internally. The modern way is to post an online petition and get a bunch of signatures. Also, you could try to initiate crafting of an official policy for such cases in LibO/TDF, because while not too common, cases like yours do arise from time to time.

By the way, I've recently learned that free software projects are not democratic – they are meritocratic. It's quite disappointing at times (e.g. when you disagree with a decision that has been made, and you can't reverse it – I know that feeling), but once you think more about it, it does make some sense. And as far as I know, Olivier's merit score is quite high in this community.

Rimas

#8

Hi Eduardo,

2011.03.03 16:15, Eduardo Alexandre rašė:

Sorry. I do not understand: The LibreOffice should be done only by members
of the TDF or the free software community?

I need to know if I'm working for a software that is truly free or not.

I believe that TDF are proponents of free software and freedom. That doesn't mean there will be no hierarchy of management within TDF or its projects.

I'm not a member of TDF myself, BTW.

Rimas

#9

Hi Paulo,

2011.03.03 15:30, Paulo de Souza Lima rašė:

2011.03.03 14:18, Claudio F Filho rašė:

Olivier, Can you give the access to Rogerio in the pootle for pt-BR?

Sophie, we can get a second person with admin privileges in the pt-BR
pootle? We are trying to ensure free contribution of the Brazilian
community
in the project.

I'll answer this one, if you don't mind. The answer is: it's totally up
to
the team lead (Olivier, in this case). Our (well, at least my) policy is
that Pootle administrators grant language admin rights for one person in
a
team, and leave that person responsible for delegating permissions
(including those of a language admin) inside their team. I don't think an
approach without such hierarchy would be good...

If you don't mind, I will answer that.

1 - What if that supposed "team lead" become untrusted by the Community?
You
are telling us that just one person can decide who is in, or out, of the
Pootle resources, based only in his own interest, despite the community
needs. That doesn't sound good to me...

Yes, that is a possibility. However, you should understand that most of us
don't speak your language or know your situation. The only case of focibly
"demoting" a language lead that I can easily imagine is if that lead would
not only be inactive him/herself, but would also prevent others from
contributing. While Olivier's actions could perhaps be seen as the latter
(though AFAIK he does allow translation suggestions, which he then moderates
himself), the statistics on Pootle prove that former is not the case –
LibreOffice UI is 99% translated, and help is 100% translated into pt-BR, so
he is active.

Many of our statements are translated to English at
https://librecommunity.wordpress.com/, our Community's blog. Other way is
using Google Translate to translate them to any language. So, not speaking
my language is not a fair motive, I guess. We are not asking for "demoting"
anybody. We are asking for the same rights that someone we don't trust has.
We are not saying that Pootle is "abandoned". We are saying that we don't
agree to the fact that one person we do not trust, have the only right to
deal with it.

We are a *Community* and we want the right to *contribute* to that just like
any other local community in the world.

2 - We, the Brazilian Community, are asking access to the resources for

translating LibreOffce to pt-br, and to colaborate with the project. At
this
moment, just one person has access to that resources, and that person is
not
answering to the community requests and needs, despite the fact he is a
TDF
member and should do so. We do not recognize that person as a "team lead"
and it is publicly expressed in many places over the web. We have granted
access to almost all the other resources, like wiki, PT-BR website,
mailing
lists, and so on, but not to Pootle, yet. We want Claudio F. Filho, who is
trusted by the Brazilian Community, and also a TDF member, to have the
same
rights to approve new contributors to Pootle.

I think this should be sorted out within your team/community. I don't think
there is an official process inside TDF to resolve such conflicts. It would
be nice to have one though, maybe the TDF officials could craft a fair
policy for such cases?

In any case, I think that outsiders (from your team's PoV) should not
generally act as judges for the reasons stated above. They may simply not be
informed well enough.

This issue has been well discussed in our community and we have a document,
with almost 1000 signatures on it, showing, the community's position on this
matter (It's public and can be accessed at
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=pt-BR&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http://www.peticaopublica.com.br/PeticaoListaSignatarios.aspx%3Fpi%3DBrOffice
already
translated by Google).

Maybe you could tell us who are those TDF officials you told above, once the
only TDF official we trust in Brazil is Claudio F Filho and he has no
rights to admin access on Pootle as well.

We want, at least, two more contributors added to Pootle, in order to work

on translations and make things transparent for the Brazilian Community:
Rogério and me. Rogério is asking for access for the last two weeks,
without
an answer. I am requesting mine right now.

What should we do in Pootle's case?

Honestly, I don't know... I can see a few options though. The civilzed way
is to engage into a dialog with Olivier and sort out your conflicts
internally. The modern way is to post an online petition and get a bunch of
signatures. Also, you could try to initiate crafting of an official policy
for such cases in LibO/TDF, because while not too common, cases like yours
do arise from time to time.

Olivier has already shown no intention to help us, in a reasonable way. So,
the "civilized way" you told is out of questions at this moment, not for our
wishes, but you could see that in the message Claudio received from him and
posted to this list. We are solving our conflicts internally, but some
issues we simply cannot deal internally. One of them is that one we are
asking you. We already have a public online petition with almost 1000
signatures, as I told you above. Again, we are not trying to "demove"
anybody. We are trying to give to someone trustable the same rights Olivier
has.

By the way, I've recently learned that free software projects are not
democratic – they are meritocratic. It's quite disappointing at times (e.g.
when you disagree with a decision that has been made, and you can't reverse
it – I know that feeling), but once you think more about it, it does make
some sense. And as far as I know, Olivier's merit score is quite high in
this community.

All right! We are not questioning the FOSS way. Indeed, we are trying to
make it real, and not simply words. That's why we don't want only one person
acting as a "judge" in Pootle. Meritocratic ways are not disapointing to us,
but that's what we are fighting for. I don't want to involve you or anyone
else in our internal problems, but there are things we need to solve as soon
as possible, in order to do the right thing.
Olivier has his score and we are not questioning that. What we are
questioning is the fact that he has too much power concentrated in his hands
for a person the community don't trust. There are several people as many
reputable as him who could have the same rights, and the community can trust
as well. Claudio F Filho is one of them.

Maybe you could tell us who to explain our case.

Rimas

Best regards.

#10

Hi all,

Rimas Kudelis wrote (03-03-11 15:20)

I think this should be sorted out within your team/community. I don't
think there is an official process inside TDF to resolve such conflicts.
It would be nice to have one though, maybe the TDF officials could craft
a fair policy for such cases?

I tend to think that it is pretty OK to give a second person the rights for pt-BR, the same possibilities as Olivier, just as asked.
There have been some contacts in the Steering Committee on the issue. Since for the moment (unresponsiveness ..) that does not resolve any conflict, I guess it would be best, if the people in Brazil, that cannot (anyway not for the moment) cooperate fine, have the same possibilities working for LibreOffice.

On the other side, if giving same rights to both parties, introduces the danger that people start fighting each other on that area, that would not be fine. People having conflicts on translations, dividing the work, whom should do what...
So isn't it that granting these rights, in a certain sense would force you to cooperate, while that is considered impossible at the same moment?

Wrt a policy for such cases: conflicts are often unique, and sorting things out is difficult. More work for each case specifically, then something that can be covered by a policy, I am afraid.

Best regards,
Cor

#11

Hi all,

Rimas Kudelis wrote (03-03-11 15:20)

I think this should be sorted out within your team/community. I don't

think there is an official process inside TDF to resolve such conflicts.
It would be nice to have one though, maybe the TDF officials could craft
a fair policy for such cases?

I tend to think that it is pretty OK to give a second person the rights for
pt-BR, the same possibilities as Olivier, just as asked.
There have been some contacts in the Steering Committee on the issue. Since
for the moment (unresponsiveness ..) that does not resolve any conflict, I
guess it would be best, if the people in Brazil, that cannot (anyway not for
the moment) cooperate fine, have the same possibilities working for
LibreOffice.

Many thanks for understanding our point. That's exactly what we want.

On the other side, if giving same rights to both parties, introduces the
danger that people start fighting each other on that area, that would not be
fine. People having conflicts on translations, dividing the work, whom
should do what...
So isn't it that granting these rights, in a certain sense would force you
to cooperate, while that is considered impossible at the same moment?

I also think our problems must be solved at home. For that, we, the
Brazilian Community, are compromized not to begin a fight in "sacred
ground", as we consider TDF resources. Many things are happening here so
fast, and we not only want, but we have to solve our ploblems asap.

Wrt a policy for such cases: conflicts are often unique, and sorting things
out is difficult. More work for each case specifically, then something that
can be covered by a policy, I am afraid.

+1

Best regards,
Cor

Best regards.

#12

Cor, is exactly this: one more admin access. We wish continue the work and dot.

The problems of privation of access already happened here and we wish that haven't more this same problem inside of LibO community.

But i think that is fair they, Paulo and Rogério, start the work and see how is the response of Olivier. If we find problems, i think that all are free to ask/report here, and find the solution.

Bests,
Claudio

#13

[ ]´

#14

Hi Claudio,

Claudio F Filho wrote (03-03-11 17:44)

I tend to think that it is pretty OK to give a second person the rights
for pt-BR, the same possibilities as Olivier, just as asked.
There have been some contacts in the Steering Committee on the issue.
Since for the moment (unresponsiveness ..) that does not resolve any
conflict, I guess it would be best, if the people in Brazil, that cannot
(anyway not for the moment) cooperate fine, have the same possibilities
working for LibreOffice.

Cor, is exactly this: one more admin access. We wish continue the work
and dot.

The problems of privation of access already happened here and we wish
that haven't more this same problem inside of LibO community.

But i think that is fair they, Paulo and Rogério, start the work and see
how is the response of Olivier. If we find problems, i think that all
are free to ask/report here, and find the solution.

OK, that sounds very good to me too.

Thanks for your reply,
Cor

#15

Hi Paulo,

Paulo de Souza Lima wrote (03-03-11 17:29)

Rimas Kudelis wrote (03-03-11 15:20)
  I think this should be sorted out within your team/community. I don't

think there is an official process inside TDF to resolve such conflicts.
It would be nice to have one though, maybe the TDF officials could craft
a fair policy for such cases?

I tend to think that it is pretty OK to give a second person the rights for
pt-BR, the same possibilities as Olivier, just as asked.
There have been some contacts in the Steering Committee on the issue. Since
for the moment (unresponsiveness ..) that does not resolve any conflict, I
guess it would be best, if the people in Brazil, that cannot (anyway not for
the moment) cooperate fine, have the same possibilities working for
LibreOffice.

Many thanks for understanding our point. That's exactly what we want.

Thanks for confirming. (Well, it was pretty straight forward of course what you asked).

On the other side, if giving same rights to both parties, introduces the
danger that people start fighting each other on that area, that would not be
fine. People having conflicts on translations, dividing the work, whom
should do what...
So isn't it that granting these rights, in a certain sense would force you
to cooperate, while that is considered impossible at the same moment?

I also think our problems must be solved at home. For that, we, the
Brazilian Community, are compromized not to begin a fight in "sacred
ground", as we consider TDF resources. Many things are happening here so
fast, and we not only want, but we have to solve our ploblems asap.

I am really happy with this attitude :slight_smile:
I think also looking at what Claudio wrote, for the moment there is solution any way.

Kind regards,
Cor

#16

Hi Paulo,

Paulo de Souza Lima wrote (03-03-11 17:29)

Rimas Kudelis wrote (03-03-11 15:20)
  I think this should be sorted out within your team/community. I don't

think there is an official process inside TDF to resolve such conflicts.
It would be nice to have one though, maybe the TDF officials could craft
a fair policy for such cases?

I tend to think that it is pretty OK to give a second person the rights for
pt-BR, the same possibilities as Olivier, just as asked.
There have been some contacts in the Steering Committee on the issue. Since
for the moment (unresponsiveness ..) that does not resolve any conflict, I
guess it would be best, if the people in Brazil, that cannot (anyway not for
the moment) cooperate fine, have the same possibilities working for
LibreOffice.

Many thanks for understanding our point. That's exactly what we want.

Thanks for confirming. (Well, it was pretty straight forward of course what you asked).

On the other side, if giving same rights to both parties, introduces the
danger that people start fighting each other on that area, that would not be
fine. People having conflicts on translations, dividing the work, whom
should do what...
So isn't it that granting these rights, in a certain sense would force you
to cooperate, while that is considered impossible at the same moment?

I also think our problems must be solved at home. For that, we, the
Brazilian Community, are compromized not to begin a fight in "sacred
ground", as we consider TDF resources. Many things are happening here so
fast, and we not only want, but we have to solve our ploblems asap.

I am really happy with this attitude :slight_smile:
I think also looking at what Claudio wrote, for the moment there is solution any way.

Kind regards,
Cor

#17

Hi,

Cor, is exactly this: one more admin access. We wish continue the work and dot.

The problems of privation of access already happened here and we wish that haven't more this same problem inside of LibO community.

But i think that is fair they, Paulo and Rogério, start the work and see how is the response of Olivier. If we find problems, i think that all are free to ask/report here, and find the solution.

Just to get it right: "start the work" means Paulo and Rogerio start making suggestions at pootle and then see if these are processed by Olivier (well - I hope some discussion what terms to use etc. will go on at tome mailing list :wink: ). In case Olivier does not process the suggestions (but don't think, this will happen) you ask here again to have a second language admin.

regards,

André

#18

Hi all,

Cor Nouws wrote (03-03-11 18:03)

I think also looking at what Claudio wrote, for the moment there is
solution any way.

Just to prevent any possible confusion: thanks to Rimas et all to for the correct way they handled the request too.
It was just because of the extra info on the issue that I have, that I thought is was useful to jump in. (I should have written this in the my first mail on the subject.)

Regards,
Cor

#19

Hi,

Cor, is exactly this: one more admin access. We wish continue the work and

dot.

The problems of privation of access already happened here and we wish that
haven't more this same problem inside of LibO community.

But i think that is fair they, Paulo and Rogério, start the work and see
how is the response of Olivier. If we find problems, i think that all are
free to ask/report here, and find the solution.

Just to get it right: "start the work" means Paulo and Rogerio start making
suggestions at pootle and then see if these are processed by Olivier (well -
I hope some discussion what terms to use etc. will go on at tome mailing
list :wink: ). In case Olivier does not process the suggestions (but don't
think, this will happen) you ask here again to have a second language admin.

It seems fair to me. Thanks.

#20

2011.03.03 19:32, Paulo de Souza Lima rašė:

Cor, is exactly this: one more admin access. We wish continue the work and

dot.

The problems of privation of access already happened here and we wish that
haven't more this same problem inside of LibO community.

But i think that is fair they, Paulo and Rogério, start the work and see
how is the response of Olivier. If we find problems, i think that all are
free to ask/report here, and find the solution.

Just to get it right: "start the work" means Paulo and Rogerio start making
suggestions at pootle and then see if these are processed by Olivier (well -
I hope some discussion what terms to use etc. will go on at tome mailing
list :wink: ). In case Olivier does not process the suggestions (but don't
think, this will happen) you ask here again to have a second language admin.

It seems fair to me. Thanks.

Cool! Thank you for understanding us too! :wink:

Rimas