Presentation conversion to/from Powerpoint - layout

Roger_Sawkins · February 28, 2012, 12:10am

I have Powerpoint on one machine and LibreOffice on another. I want to be
able to edit and save PowerPoints on either machine. However, when loading
Ppt in Presentation it does not always convert font and layout properly.
Occasional tabs or spaces are missing or duplicated; occasional text boxes
have text outside the slide, etc.

Then when I then save the presentation as ppt it changes the font, for
example, from bold to basic and shows tabs or spaces (see above) as missing.

Is there some way of ensuring that the conversions are consistent and
presentations can be switched back and forth?

As a separate issue, in some cases Presentation show jpg's as "sqeezed" in
the slide listing on the left, although they are OK when I click on the
slide or when I do the show.

Roger

Tom_Davies · February 28, 2012, 1:05pm

Hi
It might be better to convert to Odp and then it should look the same on both machines.

According to Microsoft you can expect differences in the way documents are displayed between their different operating systems. A file produced in MS Office 2010 on Xp might well look different if it's displayed in MS Office 2010 on Win7 even if they use the same printer and all settings are as close as they can be. Odp tends to look the same.

Usually the older formats tend to work better, Ppt rather than PptX or Odp 1.1 rather than the default Odp 1.2 (Extended). If you really need things to look exactly the same then an uneditable format such as Pdf would be better.

Regards from
Tom

e-letter · February 28, 2012, 4:43pm

I have Powerpoint on one machine and LibreOffice on another. I want to be
able to edit and save PowerPoints on either machine. However, when loading
Ppt in Presentation it does not always convert font and layout properly.
Occasional tabs or spaces are missing or duplicated; occasional text boxes
have text outside the slide, etc.

Your are wasting your time. Make a cost-benefit analysis and decide
whether to use either LO or m$; do not bother trying to use both.

Then when I then save the presentation as ppt it changes the font, for
example, from bold to basic and shows tabs or spaces (see above) as missing.

This is because m$ has no desire to use odf. To prove the point,
create an odp (two versions, one odf11, another odf12) document using
LO. Open the odp document using m$. Send details of the changes to the
odp file that m$ causes, to m$ technical support. Tell us the results
of your contact with m$.

Is there some way of ensuring that the conversions are consistent and
presentations can be switched back and forth?

Never in a million years.

e-letter · February 28, 2012, 4:51pm

I have Powerpoint on one machine and LibreOffice on another. I want to be
able to edit and save PowerPoints on either machine. However, when
loading
Ppt in Presentation it does not always convert font and layout properly.
Occasional tabs or spaces are missing or duplicated; occasional text
boxes
have text outside the slide, etc.

Your are wasting your time. Make a cost-benefit analysis and decide
whether to use either LO or m$; do not bother trying to use both.

Sorry for the terrible English; should read: "You are..."

Tom_Davies · February 28, 2012, 6:31pm

Hi
We successfully use MS Office alongside LibreOffice and it works out quite well.

We tend to keep each document in one or the other rather than trying to convert the documents to-and-fro. So, for out newsletter we use LO because it's better with graphics and seems happier with larger (byte-wise) documents. Clients occasionally send us things in odf format. Unfortunately we have a couple of crucial documents with macros that were written for MSO 2010. Also people are wowed by the ribbon-bar and think that if something was that expensive and that much of a hassle to install then it must be great.

So, we stick to having both because they each provide something useful that the other doesn't.

If you are having troubles in getting permissions to install LibreOffice on the other machine then perhaps try it as a portable app on a usb-stick
http://www.libreoffice.org/download/portable/
This allows you to customise LibreOffice and then just plug the usb-stick into any machine to use your customisations.

Regards from
Tom

Dag_Wieers · March 1, 2012, 2:20pm

Are we being rude today ?

The case Roger describes is something we all encounter when exporting/importing PPT documents. And while we do not control how (various) Microsoft products behave when using ODF, we can undoubtedly do a better job at making sure the import from and export to PPT (and PPTX) is smoother.

If in this case some problems are related to font issues, maybe the import filter can warn about lacking the right fonts (maybe even indicate which ones these are) and the rendering problems this may cause.

And if this is something Roger wants to help (waste time?) on, who are we to decide whether that is useful or not. Instead of providing no hope to users, I would prefer if we would clarify how users can help developers improve our product.

In this case creating simple and straight-forward examples that go wrong during import or export, and creating bugs for each looks like an easy way for users to spend their time helping developers find use-cases to improve. And I can attest that this has worked well for me in the past.

So can we be a bit more polite next time and provide hope, rather than despair ?

Thanks!

Villeroy · March 1, 2012, 3:33pm

Am 01.03.2012 15:20, Dag Wieers wrote:

I have Powerpoint on one machine and LibreOffice on another. I want
to be
able to edit and save PowerPoints on either machine. However, when
loading
Ppt in Presentation it does not always convert font and layout properly.
Occasional tabs or spaces are missing or duplicated; occasional text
boxes
have text outside the slide, etc.

Your are wasting your time. Make a cost-benefit analysis and decide
whether to use either LO or m$; do not bother trying to use both.

Are we being rude today ?

The case Roger describes is something we all encounter when
exporting/importing PPT documents. And while we do not control how
(various) Microsoft products behave when using ODF, we can undoubtedly
do a better job at making sure the import from and export to PPT (and
PPTX) is smoother.

Really? Can we realistically do a better job when millions of users want another set of MS features each and every day?
When downloading the Microsoft *viewers* for WinWord, Excel and Powerpoint, these three *viewers* cover the file formats doc(x), rtf, xls(x) and ppt(x). Their download size is close to the download size of OpenOffice.org (single language, no extensions but including additional components, 4 macro languages and read-write access to dozends of file formats).
How much coding does it take if you are aiming to 100% compatibility with their proprietary file formats?
What does it mean that the specification of OOXML weighs 8 times more print pages than the specification of ODF?

For further reference (just scratching the surface):
http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/de/elan/_docs/wp_doc-interop_en_09.pdf

e-letter · March 1, 2012, 10:00pm

I have Powerpoint on one machine and LibreOffice on another. I want to be
able to edit and save PowerPoints on either machine. However, when
loading
Ppt in Presentation it does not always convert font and layout properly.
Occasional tabs or spaces are missing or duplicated; occasional text
boxes
have text outside the slide, etc.

Your are wasting your time. Make a cost-benefit analysis and decide
whether to use either LO or m$; do not bother trying to use both.

Are we being rude today ?

No we are asking a sensible, direct question.

The case Roger describes is something we all encounter when
exporting/importing PPT documents. And while we do not control how
(various) Microsoft products behave when using ODF, we can undoubtedly do
a better job at making sure the import from and export to PPT (and PPTX)
is smoother.

No thank you, instead m$ can do a better job interpreting odf12.

And if this is something Roger wants to help (waste time?) on, who are we
to decide whether that is useful or not. Instead of providing no hope to
users, I would prefer if we would clarify how users can help
developers improve our product.

Improving the native odf behaviour is more important than m$ formats.
You want m$ output? Buy a legal copy of m$o.

So can we be a bit more polite next time and provide hope, rather than
despair ?

Polite for odf, yes, but helping m$ remain dominant? No.

Dag_Wieers · March 2, 2012, 12:49am

Why are you so defensive ?

Open Source thrives on people that are interested in a certain subject, and one of those subjects could be improving the PPT import and export filters. Even if you personally are not affected by such improvements, why would you go against any such progress ? Why can users that experience a problem not report this to the benefit for those who would like to see this fixed ?

Why are you concerned with what other people are willing to spend their free time (or maybe even paid time) on ?

It's one thing to have a personal preference over what *other* people do, it's a completely different subject if one is being condescending to users who have different expectations or use-cases than yourself.

Dag_Wieers · March 2, 2012, 12:55am

There is nothing sensible in spelling Microsoft as 'm$', being condescending to users and force your opinions on others.

We all like to have ODF as _the_ standard, and preferably everyone in the world is using LibreOffice (and for compatibility _only_ LibreOffice), but here is a reality check: the world is not nearly there...

Villeroy · March 2, 2012, 8:42am

Am 02.03.2012 01:49, Dag Wieers wrote:

Why are you so defensive ?

Open Source thrives on people that are interested in a certain subject,
and one of those subjects could be improving the PPT import and export
filters. Even if you personally are not affected by such improvements,
why would you go against any such progress ? Why can users that
experience a problem not report this to the benefit for those who would
like to see this fixed ?

Why are you concerned with what other people are willing to spend their
free time (or maybe even paid time) on ?

It's one thing to have a personal preference over what *other* people
do, it's a completely different subject if one is being condescending to
users who have different expectations or use-cases than yourself.

OK, can open source make my car fly and swim if I only wish hard enough?
There are limitations in software development just like there are limitations in the physical technology.
MS has the big truck and refuses to carry the comparatively small ODF payload. Instead they do nothing and watch how "we" spend a lot of time struggling with their huge payload on a comparatively small truck. Finally, LibreOffice 5 will be an alternative OOXML suite with ODF as legacy file format to be dropped in version 6.

Villeroy · March 2, 2012, 8:51am

Am 02.03.2012 09:41, Andreas Säger wrote:

OK, can open source make my car fly and swim if I only wish hard enough?
There are limitations in software development just like there are
limitations in the physical technology.
MS has the big truck and refuses to carry the comparatively small ODF
payload. Instead they do nothing and watch how "we" spend a lot of time
struggling with their huge payload on a comparatively small truck.

Forgot something: MS is well aware of the psychological impact. To the innocent users our project looks silly in its ongoing struggle with an ever growing MS payload, whereas they do not expose any weakness simply doing nothing.

Finally, LibreOffice 6 will be an alternative OOXML suite with ODF as
legacy file format to be dropped in version 7.

That will be the point when MS intruduces the next shit.

Dag_Wieers · March 2, 2012, 11:33am

Am 02.03.2012 01:49, Dag Wieers wrote:

Why are you so defensive ?

Open Source thrives on people that are interested in a certain subject,
and one of those subjects could be improving the PPT import and export
filters. Even if you personally are not affected by such improvements,
why would you go against any such progress ? Why can users that
experience a problem not report this to the benefit for those who would
like to see this fixed ?

Why are you concerned with what other people are willing to spend their
free time (or maybe even paid time) on ?

It's one thing to have a personal preference over what *other* people
do, it's a completely different subject if one is being condescending to
users who have different expectations or use-cases than yourself.

OK, can open source make my car fly and swim if I only wish hard enough?

What does flying/swimming cars have to do with improving the existing PPT import and export filter ?

There are limitations in software development just like there are limitations in the physical technology.

I am not denying there are limitations, but I refuse to believe we have come to the point we have reached any such limitation.

MS has the big truck and refuses to carry the comparatively small ODF payload. Instead they do nothing and watch how "we" spend a lot of time struggling with their huge payload on a comparatively small truck. Finally, LibreOffice 5 will be an alternative OOXML suite with ODF as legacy file format to be dropped in version 6.

It's a fallacy to think that the number of developers in LibreOffice is a constant, and that the only way to improve (what you deem) important is to focus. The success of Open Source is that it enables people to get involved in what interests *them*, and your reaction, both in style and body, actively demotivates people to get involved in anything other than what *you* think is important.

If more people engage (and you seem to be afraid of having _new_ people become engaged in areas you are not interested in) we enlarge the development community, or at least make it easier to track known issues and potential improvements.

I don't know what you are afraid of, but fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate...

Dag_Wieers · March 2, 2012, 11:40am

If anything looks silly to the innocent users, it's your plea to not improve an import/export filter. One that is useful to get people to switch to LibreOffice in the first place.

If you tell people to stick with MS Office if they need PPT compatibility, how does that help in getting more people to ODF ? Not everyone is fighting a religious war, some people just want to get work done.

Villeroy · March 2, 2012, 4:47pm

Am 02.03.2012 12:40, Dag Wieers wrote:

Am 02.03.2012 09:41, Andreas Säger wrote:

Please read the original posting and my reply. Then try to contribute something helpful and substancial.
This is far from religious war. It is all about a reasonable workflow with this software or with the other one and how to find some way to exchange documents between both office suites when it is really necessary.

Villeroy · March 2, 2012, 5:15pm

Am 02.03.2012 12:33, Dag Wieers wrote:

What does flying/swimming cars have to do with improving the existing
PPT import and export filter ?

It's the economy! Only dreams are free. Of course everybody wants the magic soft to open each and every proprietary file format of computing history.

There are limitations in software development just like there are
limitations in the physical technology.

I am not denying there are limitations, but I refuse to believe we have
come to the point we have reached any such limitation.

Again, why don't you refer to the OP who does not work with a magic future version. His questions are about today's LibreOffice and the same user has MS Office installed on another computer. He can choose between both suites with their respective native file formats but realistically he can not expect too much interoperability for presentation documents, particularly when the font sets differ on both machines.

I don't know what you are afraid of, but fear is the path to the dark
side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate...

All I wish is a little more self confidence regarding the ODF standard. We don't need a third decade where virtually everybody is occupied with MS interfaces, MS documents, MS browsers, MS APIs, MS protocols and extensions of all kinds.

Dag_Wieers · March 2, 2012, 6:19pm

Am 02.03.2012 12:33, Dag Wieers wrote:

What does flying/swimming cars have to do with improving the existing
PPT import and export filter ?

It's the economy! Only dreams are free. Of course everybody wants the magic soft to open each and every proprietary file format of computing history.

Again, a user reports a problem with the PPT import/export filter, and instead of constructive feedback on how to improve the situation we get:

  - Microsoft trashing (or rather, m$ tra$shing)
  - Lectures on ODF
  - Blaming the workflow or the user not choosing either MS Office or LibreOffice

I object to all that because it's not unreasonable to improve the situation and the user can contribute to improving the filters by reporting simple examples showing the issue.

And then you start about flying and swiming cars, dreams, magic and whatnot.

I don't know what you are afraid of, but fear is the path to the dark
side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate...

All I wish is a little more self confidence regarding the ODF standard. We don't need a third decade where virtually everybody is occupied with MS interfaces, MS documents, MS browsers, MS APIs, MS protocols and extensions of all kinds.

Well, you are preaching to the wrong choir, and that's not helpful.

Dag_Wieers · March 2, 2012, 6:25pm

I didn't reply to your post in this thread. I was replying to e-letter's post. Maybe you got lost and assumed I was replying to your post, I don't know.

http://www.mail-archive.com/users@global.libreoffice.org/msg17560.html

Have a nice life !

Tom_Davies · March 2, 2012, 6:27pm

Hi
We might not need or want a third decade of MS dominance but that is exactly what we have been handed. We have to work from where we really are NOT from where we wish we were.

We cannot rely on people starting to use LibreOffice and magically already all their previous documents somehow magically change to ODF. We can't even realistically expect people to immediately switch to always using ODF from the moment they start using LibreOffice. Not if they need other people to be able to read and work with their documents. We certainly can't rely on MS Office's implementation of ODF even for just reading ODF 1.2 (Extemded). People can really only start changing to ODF slowly and only after they have started using LibreOffice (or OpenOffice or the various others).

It's quite arrogant to refuse to help people deal with problems with the MS formats. E-letter is honest about it, telling people not to use LibreOffice at all. That is the only option if we refuse to deal with MS formats, just stop people from using non-MS products.

Oddly the entire rest of the project is completely in support of supporting MS formats as much as possible. It is only this list that even questions it. The other lists are happy to work in the real world while this list has people that have a lot of difficulty with "the truth on the ground". So, again it is only this list that tries to alienate new users and tries to push people away from using LibreOffice in the real world.

Regards from
Tom

Villeroy · March 2, 2012, 9:25pm

So what do you reply to Roger Sawkins? That he can file a bug report hoping that some day in future LibreOffice will fully support the extinct ppt format?