Problems with libreoffice.ee

l10n
#1

Dear all,

I am a member of the Free Software Foundation Europe, and I am writing
this e-mail because I wanted to ask an Estonian governmental institution
to recommend LibreOffice to their visitors instead of an outdated
version of OpenOffice. I would happily point them to the Estonian
version of the LibreOffice site, which appears to be
<et.libreoffice.org>, which redirects to <libreoffice.ee>.

However, the content on that site has raised some concerns in me: The
site advertises LibreOffice mainly as "gratis" (tasuta) instead of
"free" (vaba) as in free speech; the site claims that either the site's
or the software's copyright belongs to the Free Software Foundation
("Autoriõigus © 2007, Free Software Foundation, Inc." in the footer),
which I seriously doubt; and the site also includes Facebook social
plug-in, which raises non-free JavaScript and privacy issues.

I am fairly sure that The Document Foundation does not wish to advertise
LibreOffice as "gratis" instead of "free", and it seems to me that many
of the er… more unique aspects of <libreoffice.ee> are likely not
condoned by The Document Foundation.

I am afraid that in its current state I cannot recommend the Estonian
site in good conscience, and unfortunately there seems to be no
Estonian download page listing more than one platform and version of
the software on <libreoffice.org>, and thus a speedy resolution of the
aforementioned issues would be very welcome.

I am looking forward to hearing from you. If I can be of assistance,
please do not hesitate to contact me.

P.S. Please be advised that, as The Document Foundation proudly claims
Richard Stallman and the FSF as their supporters and this issue affects
the image of the FSF, I will be forwarding a copy of this e-mail to them.

Best regards,

#2

Hi,

the official site, maintained by The Document Foundation is the et.libreoffice.org (in this case the community decide to redirect the official page, not to translate it). The libreoffice.ee is the community private site, all content from that site is independent from The Document Foundation.

2013.10.03. 2:27 keltezéssel, Heiki "Repentinus" Ojasild írta:

#3

Hi,

Dear all,

I am a member of the Free Software Foundation Europe, and I am writing
this e-mail because I wanted to ask an Estonian governmental institution
to recommend LibreOffice to their visitors instead of an outdated
version of OpenOffice. I would happily point them to the Estonian
version of the LibreOffice site, which appears to be
<et.libreoffice.org>, which redirects to <libreoffice.ee>.

I am the Estonian translator of LibreOffice and (at least in theory)
manager of et.libreoffice.org. The redirect was my decision, because I
don't have time to maintain et.libreoffice.org myself and no volunteers
have stepped in to do it either. So I saw redirecting it to
libreoffice.ee(which at least gets updated) as a reasonable solution
until I or someone
else would have time to maintain et.libreoffice.org.

However, the content on that site has raised some concerns in me: The

site advertises LibreOffice mainly as "gratis" (tasuta) instead of
"free" (vaba) as in free speech; the site claims that either the site's
or the software's copyright belongs to the Free Software Foundation
("Autoriõigus © 2007, Free Software Foundation, Inc." in the footer),
which I seriously doubt; and the site also includes Facebook social
plug-in, which raises non-free JavaScript and privacy issues.

I am aware of this (except for the FB plugin issues, which I hadn't thought
about until now), thanks to Marc Paré, who wrote to me about it on June 19,
2012. I sent a message to the site maintainers after that, asking them to
fix these issues, but I never got a reply and they haven't corrected their
mistakes either.

I am fairly sure that The Document Foundation does not wish to advertise

LibreOffice as "gratis" instead of "free", and it seems to me that many
of the er… more unique aspects of <libreoffice.ee> are likely not
condoned by The Document Foundation.

I agree.

I am afraid that in its current state I cannot recommend the Estonian

site in good conscience, and unfortunately there seems to be no
Estonian download page listing more than one platform and version of
the software on <libreoffice.org>, and thus a speedy resolution of the
aforementioned issues would be very welcome.

There is et.libreoffice.org/allalaadimine, but the text there is seriously
outdated by now.

Given the (long-lasting) problems with libreoffice.ee, I propose that I end
the redirect, so that it will no longer appear as if TDF approves of the
content of libreoffice.ee; and instead make et.libreoffice.org a very
low-content site where pretty much only the download page is visible and
semi-regularly updated. However, since libreoffice.ee does have useful info
in Estonian for users, I would still like to provide a link to it somewhere
on et.libreoffice.org, although this time with a disclaimer.

Would that resolve a part of the problem here?

I am looking forward to hearing from you. If I can be of assistance,

please do not hesitate to contact me.

P.S. Please be advised that, as The Document Foundation proudly claims
Richard Stallman and the FSF as their supporters and this issue affects
the image of the FSF, I will be forwarding a copy of this e-mail to them.

Perhaps it would help if you, as a representative of FSFE, contacted the
managers of libreoffice.ee, perhaps they are more motivated to reply to
FSFE than to a mere translator.

Best regards,
Mihkel Tõnnov
Estonian translator of LibreOffice

#4

Hi Mihkel, all,

Hi,

Dear all,

I am a member of the Free Software Foundation Europe, and I am writing
this e-mail because I wanted to ask an Estonian governmental institution
to recommend LibreOffice to their visitors instead of an outdated
version of OpenOffice. I would happily point them to the Estonian
version of the LibreOffice site, which appears to be
<et.libreoffice.org>, which redirects to <libreoffice.ee>.

I am the Estonian translator of LibreOffice and (at least in theory)
manager of et.libreoffice.org. The redirect was my decision, because I
don't have time to maintain et.libreoffice.org myself and no volunteers
have stepped in to do it either. So I saw redirecting it to
libreoffice.ee(which at least gets updated) as a reasonable solution
until I or someone
else would have time to maintain et.libreoffice.org.

However, the content on that site has raised some concerns in me: The

site advertises LibreOffice mainly as "gratis" (tasuta) instead of
"free" (vaba) as in free speech; the site claims that either the site's
or the software's copyright belongs to the Free Software Foundation
("Autoriõigus © 2007, Free Software Foundation, Inc." in the footer),
which I seriously doubt; and the site also includes Facebook social
plug-in, which raises non-free JavaScript and privacy issues.

I am aware of this (except for the FB plugin issues, which I hadn't thought
about until now), thanks to Marc Paré, who wrote to me about it on June 19,
2012. I sent a message to the site maintainers after that, asking them to
fix these issues, but I never got a reply and they haven't corrected their
mistakes either.

I am fairly sure that The Document Foundation does not wish to advertise

LibreOffice as "gratis" instead of "free", and it seems to me that many
of the er… more unique aspects of <libreoffice.ee> are likely not
condoned by The Document Foundation.

I agree.

I am afraid that in its current state I cannot recommend the Estonian

site in good conscience, and unfortunately there seems to be no
Estonian download page listing more than one platform and version of
the software on <libreoffice.org>, and thus a speedy resolution of the
aforementioned issues would be very welcome.

There is et.libreoffice.org/allalaadimine, but the text there is seriously
outdated by now.

Given the (long-lasting) problems with libreoffice.ee, I propose that I end
the redirect, so that it will no longer appear as if TDF approves of the
content of libreoffice.ee; and instead make et.libreoffice.org a very
low-content site where pretty much only the download page is visible and
semi-regularly updated. However, since libreoffice.ee does have useful info
in Estonian for users, I would still like to provide a link to it somewhere
on et.libreoffice.org, although this time with a disclaimer.

Would that resolve a part of the problem here?

On a TDF point of view I think so, even if libreoffice.ee don't use the
official logo and, by that, show that they are not affiliated, I think
the redirect is confusing. So even displaying low-content on the
Estonian official website would be better and may appeal some volunteers
to step in and add content to it.

Kind regards
Sophie

#5

Dear all,

I am the Estonian translator of LibreOffice and (at least in theory)
manager of et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org>. The redirect
was my decision, because I don't have time to maintain
et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org> myself and no volunteers
have stepped in to do it either. So I saw redirecting it to
libreoffice.ee <http://libreoffice.ee> (which at least gets updated) as
a reasonable solution until I or someone else would have time to
maintain et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org>.

I am aware of this (except for the FB plugin issues, which I hadn't
thought about until now), thanks to Marc Paré, who wrote to me about it
on June 19, 2012. I sent a message to the site maintainers after that,
asking them to fix these issues, but I never got a reply and they
haven't corrected their mistakes either.

I would like to remark that this is a rather interesting history. If I
may be so bold, I would also like to add that The Document Foundation
might wish to develop a common policy on future redirects to external sites.

Now to the point.

There is et.libreoffice.org/allalaadimine
<http://et.libreoffice.org/allalaadimine>, but the text there is
seriously outdated by now.

I am very happy that et.libreoffice.org does not redirect to
libreoffice.ee anymore. In my personal opinion, the clean and
minimalistic <http://et.libreoffice.org/allalaadimine> is much clearer
and more pleasant than libreoffice.ee, even if the latter did not have
the aforementioned problems. In any case, thank you for the speedy
resolution of the part having direct bearing on The Document Foundation.
I will be sure to let the FSF know that The Document Foundation has no
further to play in the resolution of this issue.

updated. However, since libreoffice.ee <http://libreoffice.ee> does have
useful info in Estonian for users, I would still like to provide a link
to it somewhere on et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org>,
although this time with a disclaimer.

Personally, I would recommend against that. The site can easily be found
using a search engine. Furthermore, in addition to the freedom issues
already presented, there has been a lot of talk in some Estonian free
software circles that the site is not maintained to a level that would
make it useful.

Would that resolve a part of the problem here?

If I have understood correctly that TDF does not actually play any part
in the maintenance of this site and simply directed people there, and
this redirect has now ended, then I consider the issue, as it relates to
TDF, solved.

Perhaps it would help if you, as a representative of FSFE, contacted the
managers of libreoffice.ee <http://libreoffice.ee>, perhaps they are
more motivated to reply to FSFE than to a mere translator.

First, I would gladly contact the managers of this site. Could you send
_me_ an e-mail with their contact details and a _brief_ overview of the
site's background (who? what? why?).

Second, localisation is of paramount importance, so you are not a mere
translator – you are a translator doing a bunch of great work to make it
possible for more than one million people to use LibreOffice in their
native language, and you are helping to ensure the continuity of
cultural wealth the world knows as languages.

Thank you for your cooperation and speedy resolution of this issue.

Cheers,

#6

Hi,

Dear all,

I am the Estonian translator of LibreOffice and (at least in theory)
manager of et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org>. The redirect
was my decision, because I don't have time to maintain
et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org> myself and no volunteers
have stepped in to do it either. So I saw redirecting it to
libreoffice.ee <http://libreoffice.ee> (which at least gets updated) as
a reasonable solution until I or someone else would have time to
maintain et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org>.

I am aware of this (except for the FB plugin issues, which I hadn't
thought about until now), thanks to Marc Paré, who wrote to me about it
on June 19, 2012. I sent a message to the site maintainers after that,
asking them to fix these issues, but I never got a reply and they
haven't corrected their mistakes either.

I would like to remark that this is a rather interesting history. If I
may be so bold, I would also like to add that The Document Foundation
might wish to develop a common policy on future redirects to external sites.

I'll speak to the board about that policy, I agree that it might avoid
errors in the future.

Kind regards
Sophie

#7

Hi :slight_smile:

It would be great if it was easier for Mihkel (?) to maintain the official site and have all the things there rather than on a 3rd party site.  Perhaps to have the "3rd party" one redirect to the official LO one.

I appreciate it might not be possible.  Or at least, not easily enough to make it worth doing.  So, i think we need to be careful not to legislate ourselves into a position where certain languages seem to cease having any LibreOffice site or no easy way of finding them. 
Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

#8

Hi Tom,

Hi :slight_smile:

It would be great if it was easier for Mihkel (?) to maintain the
official site and have all the things there rather than on a 3rd
party site. Perhaps to have the "3rd party" one redirect to the
official LO one.

That won't solve anything here. Most of the time, and even for larger
communities, a website is difficult to maintain. But the best is to have
only static and official information displayed.

I appreciate it might not be possible. Or at least, not easily
enough to make it worth doing. So, i think we need to be careful not
to legislate ourselves into a position where certain languages seem
to cease having any LibreOffice site or no easy way of finding them.

What does Mihkel is the best solution: working hard and concentrate on
the language of the suite to disseminate LibreOffice usage in his
language and have a static low-content site.

Kind regards
Sophie

#9

[snip]

> updated. However, since libreoffice.ee <http://libreoffice.ee> does have
> useful info in Estonian for users, I would still like to provide a link
> to it somewhere on et.libreoffice.org <http://et.libreoffice.org>,
> although this time with a disclaimer.

Personally, I would recommend against that. The site can easily be found
using a search engine. Furthermore, in addition to the freedom issues
already presented, there has been a lot of talk in some Estonian free
software circles that the site is not maintained to a level that would
make it useful.

Okay, but then wouldn't it be good to make it clear that libreoffice.ee is
not in any way affiliated with TDF? Otherwise the (lack of) relationship
between et.libreoffice.org and libreoffice.ee would be confusing in my
opinion.

Would that resolve a part of the problem here?

If I have understood correctly that TDF does not actually play any part
in the maintenance of this site and simply directed people there, and
this redirect has now ended, then I consider the issue, as it relates to
TDF, solved.

Well, actually TDF did not even direct people there, that was my decision,
as I said, because I thought it would be beneficial for users.
But yes, that site has no connection to TDF (afaik).

Perhaps it would help if you, as a representative of FSFE, contacted the
> managers of libreoffice.ee <http://libreoffice.ee>, perhaps they are
> more motivated to reply to FSFE than to a mere translator.

First, I would gladly contact the managers of this site. Could you send
_me_ an e-mail with their contact details and a _brief_ overview of the
site's background (who? what? why?).

Sure, but I don't really know that much about it.

Second, localisation is of paramount importance, so you are not a mere

translator – you are a translator doing a bunch of great work to make it
possible for more than one million people to use LibreOffice in their
native language, and you are helping to ensure the continuity of
cultural wealth the world knows as languages.

Well, I forgot to add sarcasm tags around "mere translator" :slight_smile:

Best Regards,
Mihkel