Reply settings on this list have changed

users
#61

       
I find deleting to be slightly easier than copy & paste in order to include the original sender. Further, what difference does it make to you how many copies the original sender receives? If I happen to receive two copies of a response to me, I delete one - actually I delete both once I'm done with it.

  exactly;
            this requires having to delete the extraneous e-addresses :wink:

Time is not the issue. The issue is, what does the RFC say? RFC's determine how things work, and how things will operate together. The primary problem as I now see it, is that there is apparently no companion RFC (or at least nobody has mentioned it) that specifies that email clients need to include a "Reply to List" button. That's an oversight. Someone with the skill and knowledge to amend RFC's needs to make that correction so that the next versions of all email clients include the button.

        Therefore, I'd like to know what is the time savings in this vs.
having the reply go to the list ???

That's something I agree with, is one of my pet peeves and you've stated the case perfectly.

#62

Thunderbird has the option. I don't know what other clients have it, if any.

#63

(1) I'm not referring to the sender vs. the list ... I"m referring
to all the others' which are placed in the cc;
           by clicking on 'reply all', all the e-addresses are picked up -
therefore, I have to be sure that the 'to' has the sender's e-address and
the 'cc' has the list e-address.

       (2) Just what - or who - is RFC ???

       (3) Thank you for standing up against these list-members who respond
at the bottom !

#64

        (1) I'm not referring to the sender vs. the list ... I"m referring
to all the others' which are placed in the cc;
            by clicking on 'reply all', all the e-addresses are picked up -
therefore, I have to be sure that the 'to' has the sender's e-address and
the 'cc' has the list e-address.

        (2) Just what - or who - is RFC ???

Request for comments

        (3) Thank you for standing up against these list-members who respond
at the bottom !

Actually there are two different philosophies. Top posting works best when only a few people are actively involved in the conversation and all are actively following the thread. For most exchanges this works very well because it mimics a verbal conversation.

Bottom posting is done on lists because someone may not have seen the initial post and the context of the answers and other follow up posts. The idea is that the thread can be followed with the oldest post on top to latest on the bottom as if you are reading a report.

Inline posting is sometimes done when it is easier to answer each issue raised.

I did a combination of inline and bottom posting

Also snip is used to indicate that part of the original has been deleted by the poster

<snip>

#65

Hi Anne and Jay,

(3) Thank you for standing up against these list-members who respond
at the bottom !

Actually there are two different philosophies. Top posting works best
when only a few people are actively involved in the conversation and all
are actively following the thread. For most exchanges this works very
well because it mimics a verbal conversation.

Bottom posting is done on lists because someone may not have seen the
initial post and the context of the answers and other follow up posts.
The idea is that the thread can be followed with the oldest post on top
to latest on the bottom as if you are reading a report.

Inline posting is sometimes done when it is easier to answer each issue
raised.

I did a combination of inline and bottom posting

Also snip is used to indicate that part of the original has been deleted
by the poster

<snip>

Please review http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette#Top-Posting_vs_Bottom-Posting for more information on posting.

This topic has been covered several times on this list. FYI, we recommend bottom posting if possible along with inline posting, in order to preserve the flow of discussion for all.

It just makes it easier for everyone to work on the lists if we adopt the same way of responding to email.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,

Marc

#66

Thunderbird has the option. I don't know what other clients have it, if any.

Opera have that option too.
But it still doesn't make the idea of making the From: the default To: address for replies any better.
It is like if the default on a forum would be that you reply with a PM instead of to the thread.

Opera automatically detects/filters mailing lists, and whenever I get a mail with both my email and the list address in the To: field it removes the list 'duplicate' and leaves the other one in the Inbox instead of in the list 'folder', which causes the context/thread to be lost.
Makes it messy to follow!
I believe this is the standard if you use 'Reply to all'? At least that's the way it works if I use that option in Opera.
The way anne-ology does it works better, as the second address is placed in the Cc: field instead of 2 addresses in the To: field.

#67

Hi :slight_smile:
Bottom posting is a good way to alienate most of the target
market-shares that LO needs to break into.  Many new people are
completely unaware that there is any other way of posting other than
top-posting because top posting is so widespread.

Also there
are a ridiculous number of rules, such as how and when to snip, that
makes it more time consuming and difficult for new people that have
only joined the list to deal with one or 2 specific questions, not to
change their entire life-style.

How about we 1st get the world using LibreOffice and THEN start opening people to new ways of doing things?

Oh and this new way of having to use "Reply to all" instead of "Reply" is brilliant!  It makes it more difficult to keep things on-list and more difficult for new arrivals to the list.  Perfect!!
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#68

Hi :slight_smile:
One event in 2 years is not worth creating a big fuss over.  It got fixed through some excellent work by Florian (as usual) and i think someone else.  The vast majority of people seem to realise that anything can go very public and perhaps even "go viral" very fast.

We seldom seem to run into the problem of people not realise how to unsubscribe anymore either so perhaps people are just becoming more familiar with the problems of modern times and typical work-arounds (such as giving info in the sig at the bottom).

While most email-client may have an easy way to "reply to list" the ones that are used by most people do not have the functionality and i can't imagine Microsoft adding it just to make things easier for TDF.  If we are aiming at avoiding converting or migrating MS Office users then making things difficult for them is fine.

Most replies are really aimed at the list.  If they go elsewhere then that becomes confusing.  If people do want to respond off-list then it's fairly easy to copy&paste an appropriate address into the "To" field.

I thought the guide was interesting but it looked old and unaware of the problems that TDF faces.  The writer uses a very non-standard (NOT the smae as complying with ISO standards!) email-client and doesn't seem to give a hoot about anyone else.

Normally i wouldn't mind trying something new like this for a couple of days but the timing makes it a total pita for me as i have hundreds of emails to get through and 2 clicks instead of 1 is a pita that i wouldn't normally notice so much. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#69

Hi :slight_smile:
+1

Yahoo is set-up to be a pita anyway, i know.  There is a reply button but to do a reply-to-all takes 2 clicks and you have to wait after the 1st click for it's sub-menu (with only 2 items in it) to appear.  Other, proper email-clients, may have tons of options but Yahoo only offers 2 including reply.  Does MS ever comply with RFCs?  Does it even try to or claim it tries to?

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#70

Hi :slight_smile:
Is it possible to set filters to look for items in a subject-line instead of looking at where replies might go to?  Messages from the users list always seem to have [libreoffice-users] in the subject-line but not always in the same place ...
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#71

Hi :slight_smile:
Bottom posting is a good way to alienate most of the target

I strongly dislike bottom posting.... Just saying... If it were obviously the correct and logical choice, then I expect more people would tend towards it naturally.

I usually follow what ever the last person has done so as not to annoy either side.

Oh and this new way of having to use "Reply to all" instead of "Reply" is brilliant! It makes it more difficult to keep things on-list and more difficult for new arrivals to the list. Perfect!!

With reply all, two copies are received by the original poster.

#72

Hi :slight_smile:
Hmmm, over 60% of the worlds top 50 supercomputers use Gnu&Linux and most of the rest use other unix-based platforms.  So anyone using the internet or any email system has probably used Linux.  Google servers run on Gnu&Linux.  Almost all mobile phones used Gnu&Linux although smart phones sometimes use something else.

What people usually mean is they have never used it as a desktop OS. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#73

Hi :slight_smile:
That is very considerate of you!  Typical of you really.  I tried that for a while but in life generally (ie not just in here) i find that whatever i do annoys a large number of people so now i just do whatever is easiest for me to get the job done.

I'm not convinced that whatever most people do is obviously right.  I tend to find the exact opposite.

Just because my boss, his bosses, our management committee, all my colleagues, all the people in all organisations that we do business with including funders, all clients including individuals and everyone i email privately all top-post doesn't mean it's right or the best way.  The only time i ever see bottom or in-line posting is here or other OpenSource projects, usually projects that are losing people faster than gaining them.

The question is not about wrong or right imo, it's about whether we want new people to start using LO and to feel welcome or do we want to discourage all newcomers?

It is a pita that people get duplicates.  Another thing i am seeing is that people break out into "working groups" which may or may not fizzle out but even if they do resolve the problem that answer is unlikely to reach the list.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#74

Thanks for clearing up that acronym.

#75

Hi :slight_smile:
+1

It is good to experiment and play around with things in search of the best answer.  I think the way it was before was the best way i have ever seen from any list.  I was bragging about it on the Ubuntu lists quite recently where they often have problems with the new type of system we have moved to. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#76

yes, I agree with you; and thanks for your kind words.

       For the listers who promote Thunderbird & Opera, the problems, some
of which are noted here, persist ;-(

       BTW - what is PM ? ... Prime Minister doesn't fit into the context
:wink:
                                         post meridian or post mortem :wink:

       BTW 2 - if anyone would care to see my list - I've even written
articles - re. the acronym craze, I'll be glad to send it to you; just ask
:wink:

På Thu, 16 Aug 2012 02:29:24 +0200, skrev Andrew Brager <apb3304@bak.rr.com

#77

Hi :slight_smile:
I am not sure about current usage levels but 2 areas that Sun had problems trying to break into were
1.  Windows users
2.  US and England etc
Europe, Brazil and many other places were quite happy to use a product that wasn't primarily about making huge profits for a certain US company.

There is always a risk, when going for new markets, of losing stable and existing loyal customers.  Would gaining a lot of Windows users annoy the Gnu&Linux users so much they would leave?

(It might be worth noting that the "extremist" group (probably not the way extremist is usually used these days), the "Free Software Foundation" and Richard Stallman backed LO where they would never back OOo (OOo is what AOO used to be called under Sun) so i doubt Gnu&Linux users would leave!  More likely the opposite and tons more would continue to keep joining.)

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#78

brilliantly said.

       And may I add this use of acronyms is silly ... are we supposed to
memorize each new one ???
          here's supposedly a complete listing -
http://www.all-acronyms.com/

       Yes, growing up pre-computers was different from you post-computer
youngsters, but bear in mind that using acronyms confuses the communication
since many of these are duplicates :wink:

Hi :slight_smile:

#79

This is what IMAP is for. I have 20+ accounts set up on 5 different computers, and work with the same mail on all of them, and they all stay in sync because of teh way IMAP works.

IMAP is the only way to do email, especially if you can host your own server.

#80

        brilliantly said.

        And may I add this use of acronyms is silly ... are we supposed to
memorize each new one ???
           here's supposedly a complete listing -
http://www.all-acronyms.com/

        Yes, growing up pre-computers was different from you post-computer
youngsters, but bear in mind that using acronyms confuses the communication
since many of these are duplicates :wink:

I should have noted that RFC and the related RFQ (request for quotation) are very old engineering acronyms (pre PC) used to describe stages in project development. RFC is asking the reviewers to review a draft proposal/design/specifications prior to formally finalizing the design. Reviewers may be any interested party involved in the project. There may not be a formal RFC issued of the complete design/proposal/specifications but various interested parties are often asked to review at least parts of the design. RFQ is formally asking vendors to bid on the finalized specifications.