Replying to users

Hi :slight_smile:
Thanks Alex!  I guess we would rather have devs working on more widely used stuff.  It's always possible to put these ideas forwards possibly for Extensions and just see if that sparks a new dev into working on LibreOffice.  I was wondering if there was already an Extension for OpenOffice or something lurking around some long forgotten corner of the internet but i guess the original poster would have already tried googling for that sort of thing.

I found the link that i keep losing
http://blog.freedomsponsors.org/about/
but if Apple are no longer supporting their own formats then i doubt anyone else will be keen to!
Regard from
Tom :slight_smile:

I did some initial research on this. It seems that .pages ect formats
work in the same way as ODF formats in the fact they are some form of
compressed archive. I was able to explore them through a archive such as
7zip.

________________________________

<snip>

Now, Pages/Numbers/Keynote support might interest more people, but for
that you would need a Mac developer with some serious time on his/her
hands and at the moment there aren't many floating around in this project.

FWIW, all three will Save As in MS Office formats, for those that need to share a file with someone else. In addition, OS X allows you to save that file as a PDF file from the Save/Save As print dialog.

The downside of saving as MS Office format, I think you are l likely to lose some formatting the OS X are capable of that MS formats are not. I know this is true for Keynote to PowerPoint files.

As for the other two... I never liked Pages, just a personal preference, so don't use it. But, our club newsletter creator has created quite the results with Pages. I'm not sure I'd want to tackle it in MS Word. As for Numbers, never used it, as to me all the spreadsheets may as well be identical. I use a spreadsheet for simple number crunching, not a graphing program, or database program.

To my knowledge, not even other apps on OSX can open the
Pages/Numbers/Keynote files.

I have to say, some will, but you have to understand the results might not be what you want. That's a problem with importing any file created by any program, in either direction, as I noted with Keynote files above.

One would have thought that if the problem
of interoperability with these formats was that acute, then some bright
Mac spark would have developed an app that could do just that, convert
them to something more useful.

I don't have the time to test, but possibly saving as a PDF, and then importing into another program may work.

Hi :slight_smile:
If you need to clear a bit of space then try the standard
1.  Empty the trash can in your emailing system.  With more than 1 account you might need to do each one separately

2.  In your web-browser (safari?) empty all the temp files, caches, password stores, cookies err anything like that if you can find out how to easily
3.  Uninstall any programs/games you don't enjoy or use anymore
4.  Empty your OSes temp files and stuff if you can find out how to easily
5.  Empty the rubbish bin

You might be amazed how often people have several Gigabytes of stuff in their trash cans and are completely unaware that the stuff in there is still easy to recover.  In your case it probably wont create enough room to install LibreOffice and even if it does it's still better to leave that until after your holiday so that you have room for a photo or 2.

If you are really keen to move away from those older word-processors then you might like to use AbiWord temporarily.  It's very light but still quite powerful although their Mac version is a little old now
https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/11511/abiword
http://www.abisource.com/download/
http://abiword.en.softonic.com/mac

I found it awkward because last time i used it i could not get it to use MS formats by default.  Nowadays using ODF is less problematic because so many more people can read/write it.  So, Abiword is probably a lot easier now as it's default formats are the ones LibreOffice uses by default too.

However, i think i would keep using the word-processors you are using at the moment and leave all this until you get back.

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
Errr, having said all that i couldn't open any of the test files sent off-list (at least not in Ubuntu even after changing from utf8 to Apple encoding) so i think it probably IS important to clear some space and install the light-weight Abiword for word-processing.  If you really need a spreadsheet program (on holiday??) then Gnumeric is the spreadsheet program that goes with it.

However, how many long documents are you likely to write on holiday?  It might still be worth sticking with what you have and then copy&paste those letters and things into LibreOffice when you get back. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

________________________________
From: Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
To: McBride <dcmcb@xtra.co.nz>; "users@global.libreoffice.org" <users@global.libreoffice.org>
Sent: Friday, 24 May 2013, 8:25
Subject: Re: appleworks tests

Hi :slight_smile:
If you need to clear a bit of space then try the standard
1.  Empty the trash can in your emailing system.  With more than 1 account you might need to do each one separately

2.  In your web-browser (safari?) empty all the temp files, caches, password stores, cookies err anything like that if you can find out how to easily
3.  Uninstall any programs/games you don't enjoy or use anymore
4.  Empty your OSes temp files and stuff if you can find out how to easily
5.  Empty the rubbish bin

You might be amazed how often people have several Gigabytes of stuff in their trash cans and are completely unaware that the stuff in there is still easy to recover.  In your case it probably wont create enough room to install LibreOffice and even if it does it's still better to leave that until after your holiday so that you have room for a photo or 2.

If you are really keen to move away from those older word-processors then you might like to use AbiWord temporarily.  It's very light but still quite powerful although their Mac version is a little old now
https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/11511/abiword
http://www.abisource.com/download/
http://abiword.en.softonic.com/mac

I found it awkward because last time i used it i could not get it to use MS formats by default.  Nowadays using ODF is less problematic because so many more people can read/write it.  So, Abiword is probably a lot easier now as it's default formats are the ones LibreOffice uses by default too.

However, i think i would keep using the word-processors you are using at the moment and leave all this until you get back.

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

________________________________
From: McBride <dcmcb@xtra.co.nz>
To: laurent alonso <alonso.laurent@gmail.com>
Cc: Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>; Alexander Thurgood <alex.thurgood@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 23 May 2013, 23:39
Subject: appleworks tests

Thanks to all for looking into my issue so carefully.
Actually I don't have libre office, my enquiry was to make sure I can 
one way or other convert my appleworks.
Got an old Mac OS x 10.5.8 and was going to get an airbook or so to go 
overseas,

but if i can't convert my files, it won't be a holiday

anymore...
I'll have to change it one day though..I can't just download 
libreoffice for testing as I don't have much more space on my old Mac...
Here are some tests if you like:

Thanks. Turquoisegrece

Hello,
a quick answer as I just see your emails ...

My question was Can libre office read pages/appleworks/
clarissworks? Thanks. Turquoisegrece

In fact, in some near future,
a filter for Appleworks/Clarisworks text (word processing) files 
might be included in LibreOffice
based on libmwaw ( http://sourceforge.net/p/libmwaw/wiki/Home/ ), 
see for instance http://docs.libreoffice.org/ .
It will not be perfect but it may retrieve the text, most graphics, 
tables, text-boxes, basic layout, ... .

For Pages and for other kinds of Appleworks/Clarisworks documents 
(spreadsheet, database, ...), I do not know.

Note:
if you have a Mac with OSX >= 10.6, you can find in http://sourceforge.net/projects/libmwaw/files/
  a compiled version
of libmwaw and mwaw2odt with a <<crude>> AppleScript interface: 
mwawOSX.zip, it takes a supported format file
( and so Appleworks/ClarisWorks files ) and converts it in a .odt 
files ... Let me know if you try it and find some

bugs...

Hi :slight_smile:
Just in case anyone thought i was sounding unusually knowledgeable (and about Macs!) all my stuff was in the snipped out bit.  It was all Alex and Ken there.

I have just had a few days (1hour/day) on a Macbook but it's the first time i have used Mac in about a decade.  Wow though!  It was really nice and smooth!  It had some features that i really like Gnu&Linux for, such as multiple workspaces/virtual screens.  Some things were a bit upside down.  When you want to move a page up the screen to go on to the next page the gesture is to slide your fingers up.  Hmmm, now i write that it seems more logical than the Windows way!  I'm not likely to buy one but it's really nice to use. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

I didn't see the earlier posts so not sure what exactly the question was, but I have AppleWorks 6 and it can save to .rtf which can then be opened in LO. My version also uses MacLinkPlus (a library of file converters) to save to M$Word format. Note that I haven't installed MacLinkPlus separately so wonder if it's packaged with AppleWorks 6.

Can't any docs be saved that way and re-opened in LO or just about anything else? With a quick test on an AW text document fomatted to print envelopes, the conversion worked quite well, keeping page settings intact.

Hi :slight_smile:
Just in case anyone thought i was sounding unusually knowledgeable (and
about Macs!) all my stuff was in the snipped out bit. It was all Alex and
Ken there.

I have just had a few days (1hour/day) on a Macbook but it's the first
time i have used Mac in about a decade. Wow though! It was really nice
and smooth! It had some features that i really like Gnu&Linux for, such as
multiple workspaces/virtual screens.

Click on Mission Control, move cursor to the right of the top of the
screen, click the "+" sign. Voila - new virtual screen/workspace.

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, i didn't need to create new workspaces.  I just liked that i
seemed to be able to navigate to existing ones using an easy key
combination.  Something like;
Ctrl/Apple-key/Alt and keyboard arrows

I
hadn't previously realised Apple even had the workspaces idea
built-in.  About a decade ago i wouldn't have recognised it nor realised
how useful it is.  Now that i have used non-Windows OSes i did recognise
it.

Hmmm, that just led me to trying similar combinations on
Ubuntu and i just found that pressing the 'Windows' key and holding it
down brought up an overlay/pop-up that shows "Keyboard Shortcuts".  Is that just in Unity?  So i have just learned i can switch workspaces by pressing;

Ctrl Alt arrow-keys
and that deals with 1 of the problems i've had with Unity.

'Obviously' in Unity if you just tap the 'Windows' key it brings up the "Dash Home" which shows thumbnails of recently used apps and recently used files (potentially embarrassing if you have been working on confidential files or some such).  To get the elegant looking pop-up/overlay i held down the button for a while.

I wonder

1.  Why Ubuntu keyboards still use the MS logo on their 'Windows' key
2.  If the police (or some such) will burst into my home and arrest me for scratching that logo out and painting a penguin on.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
Nicely found and thanks for sharing that.  Rtf is a reasonably good middle-step.  Even better if it can be done in headless mode to allow a large number of files to be converted all at the same time to avoid having to open each one and then re-save it and close.

I'm not entirely certain i understand what is going on but it seems like just waiting for the next branch of LibreOffice, the 4.1.x, means that middle step could be avoided and the full conversion done in LibreOffice in headless mode.

I wonder if such filters would be better as Extensions rather than being in the main branch but that's a discussion i'm fairly sure has already happened on the devs lists.  There are probably good reasons for making exceptions in specific cases even if it is a rule or something. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, i didn't need to create new workspaces. I just liked that i
seemed to be able to navigate to existing ones using an easy key
combination. Something like;
Ctrl/Apple-key/Alt and keyboard arrows

Apple calls Workspaces spaces. To find out how to go from one space to
another via tha keyboard just look at the Help Center, which shows:
Do any of these:

   - Swipe left or right with three fingers to scroll through your spaces.
   - Enter Mission Control, and then click the space you want to use.
   - Press the Control key and the number key for the space you want. For
   example, press Control-3 to go to Desktop 3.
   - Press the Control key and an arrow key to scroll through the spaces.

That seems to be about as easy as in Linux.

Hi :
I do like the way this list helps people with various different issues on different OSes.  Even with problems that are not directly related to LibreOffice.

LibreOffice is cross-platform and using it is a good step in the process of migrating from 1 platform to another.  That way you have familiar tools on the new platform and some idea of how to keep working without needing so much "time out" for re-training.

Many thanks to Jomali
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

We try our best to help as much as we can, but sometimes those of us who are reading these lists do not have an answer.

Yes, we "talk" about other issues than LibreOffice on some of these lists, but it should not be the main reasons to "come and read them".

For the past few weeks, the questions I see are not something I could help with. At least I was not sure of an answer and let others put in "their two cents worth".

Yes, having cross-platform packages really are nice. I run Ubuntu Linux most of the time, but I do need to use Windows once in a while due some non-cross-platform packages. So, when I am using Windows on a laptop [not my main desktop since it is Ubuntu only] then I do not need to have a different package for my "office suite needs". That is really one of the best features of using LibreOffice - the cross-platform usability.

Yes, LibreOffice is not like many packages, since it is was designed to be used on many different platforms, and not just the ones listed. Our developers are working hard to make LibreOffice work on as many platforms as they can. They are working on making tablet versions, other than Windows OS tablet-like, touch screen, laptop devices. An Android version is being worked on, but due to the limits of program space and other limitations, that LibreOffice will not be as fully functional as the Windows, Mac OS X, and various other Linux-based systems. Also, there are tools to help make our office suite work "better" with certain platforms. I use a 4 core Ubuntu desktop. It was a "better than middle of the road" system when I bought it. Right now, there is a emerging market for LibreOffice using the Raspberry Pi system that has some different Linux OS options. That system's developers seem to have ported LibreOffice to work the best they can to their system. The figures I have heard from a "web cast" is they have reached the million unit mark. Sure, not all of these usints will be running LibreOffice, but are being used for so many other options than a traditional computer, but the whole idea was that LibreOffice currently the only office suite that was ported to Raspberry Pi. People are able to get LibreOffice to work on many more systems than is listed on our download site.

The re-training aspect is the one key aspect for moving from MSO to LibreOffice. For that, many people I have talked to do not want to switch. They will keep on using other packages they are "use to using" instead of taking the short amount of time to see how easy LibreOffice is in "getting use to". I switched to Linux as my main system in 2009, before LO came in to being, so I had only one choice, OpenOffice.org. Since LibreOffice is the best fork of that older package, I was able to easily switch. Yes, I am guilty of the "suing the same package that I am use to using" issue/excuse. I have a preferred "paid for" graphics package that has not ported to any other system. It is a Win-only package. Yes, I am learning GIMP for my Linux-based systems, but after using a package for over 10 to 15 years, it is "hard to switch" and re-trin myself to be able to use a different package as well as the one I prefer to use.

I stopped getting MSO at the 2003 mark. One reason was the fact that MSO "changed everything" to my view back them when MSO '07 came out. I kept using it till I had a real big push to start using a different package. Now, I "struggle" with someone else's system when they only have MSO '07 'or '10 installed. I am now use to using LibreOffice now.

As for the "multi-workplace" option[s] in a Linux based system [yes OS X is sort of Linux based], I do not really use them. I do know of others who really need to use them. I know of a few Windows user who would love to be able to have that option.

So to answer the "question" of "no answers to my question", like I stated before, sometimes we do not have a solution to the issue and we just do not reply to the question and say that. That seems to be a fact of life, in the technology world. YET, sometimes we might have enough idea[s] to try to work with the user and figure out were the problem comes from and solve it in the trial-and-error method. Sometimes that is the only way.

I had an issue with duplex printing on Ubuntu with some printers. The solution was not obvious to see. The check box solution was not even a part of the Window's version of Tools > Option > LibreOffice > General dialog box. I needed to check the "Use LibreOffice dialogs" in the "Print dialogs" section. That was not an option available with the Windows version. Why did that simple check box option make the issue[s] go away on the printers that would not duplex directly from LibreOffice's printing system, no one knows. It is just something that corrected the problem using the "lets see what that does" trial-and-error method of figuring out a solution. That was many month ago for me, so the underlying issue[s] may have been "fixed" in the newest version of our great package. I just have checked that out, since that printer is at its "end of life" and is kept around just for its stand-alone FAX option.

So, in my "long winded" "talk" here, I hope that people will try LibreOffice and help others with "working around" any issues that might come up untill our fine developers - volunteers - have fixed the issues.

Hi :slight_smile:
Not all our devs are volunteers.  Some are paid by various companies, notably SUSE but also Redhat and others to work on LibreOffice.  Such companies might normally attempt to create their own "in house" product but instead choose to collaborate on creating something shared.

Macs are based on Bsd, which in turn is unix-based.  Gnu&Linux are also unix-based.  So Bsd and Gnu&Linux share the same parent but do have differences.

Apparently a lot of Raspberry Pis are used to play around with hardware experimentation such as control's for various types of robots.  One chap put quite a few together to create a super-server.  So significant numbers are not being used as desktop machines at all.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :slight_smile:
Not all our devs are volunteers. Some are paid by various companies, notably SUSE but also Redhat and others to work on LibreOffice. Such companies might normally attempt to create their own "in house" product but instead choose to collaborate on creating something shared.

Macs are based on Bsd, which in turn is unix-based. Gnu&Linux are also unix-based. So Bsd and Gnu&Linux share the same parent but do have differences.
  

Just to keep the record straight, on Linux day #1, Linus Torvalds based his Linux on Minix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX , which in turn was based on Unix. I do believe the Minix disk filesystem is still included with today's Linux. Yes, I just checked and it is (man mkfs.minix). Then GNU had a bunch of *nix utilities, such as ls, tar, gcc, etc. which Linus merged into Linux. Linux grew from that grafting ever since. That is why Linux is referred to as GNU/Linux. To be accurate, the term Linux only refers to the kernel operating system, not the GNU tools. GNU/Linux is not Unix, but it is very close and the philosophy is very similar. BSD and GNU/Linux are two branches of the same Unix tree. Although a bit dated (the Linux kernel is now up to 3.x), here is a nice chart I just found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history.svg

Clearing the air...
Girvin Herr

Apparently a lot of Raspberry Pis are used to play around with hardware experimentation such as control's for various types of robots. One chap put quite a few together to create a super-server. So significant numbers are not being used as desktop machines at all.

Regards from Tom :slight_smile:

<snip>

Yes, there are those companies that help with the FOSS packages like LibreOffice. Their help is very important to projects like LibreOffice.

I think having in-house versions are not good for many reasons, but the two are: 1] they are judged negatively by it for the issues brought up, even if they did not create the coding that was the trigger for the issue, 2] the good marketing potential to be a part of the open source movement by supporting and contributing to an open-source project.

The Raspberry Pi systems were developed for the educational market as a really low costing system for the school budgets. The only office suite package ported to their version of Linux is LibreOffice. Yes, RPi was designed to a cheap costing Linux-based computer to control other electronics, making things like media servers, robotics, and to control any number of other electronics from an adapter/daughter board. Yes, I have stated about the "mini super computer" running Linux [about $2000 USD for all the hardware and such]. Another cheap "paperback book size" system has done that as well. If the students had a bad day and fried the RPi, it was much cheaper to replace it than a more traditional computer system. It was designed for the low "replacement costs" if a bad day happened.

But the thing is that RPi was developed for the educational market and every one that is being used for that market, hardware or software experimentation, will be exposed in some degree to LibreOffice. Either that it has been ported/compiled to be hardware optimized or actually using it on a RPi.

For Macs, yes I should have gone back the one more step to its Unix roots.

The key is that if you have a non-traditional Unix, Linux, or other OS and want to compile it to your specific hardware and OS combination, it is possible. You do not need to stick with Windows, Mac OSX, or the standard .deb or .rpm Linux installs. Just having a package that will work on Windows, Mac and "standard" Gnu&Linux based systems. It is also nice, except for Windows, you have a choice of CPU optimized versions for your system. DEB/RPM - 32-bit or 64-bit. Mac OSX - PPC or Intel/x86. Of course there is a Windows based portable version instead of the "default" Windows one, but it has its pros/cons over the standard/default installed Windows version.

The cross-platform option is one of the better concepts for marketing, besides the MSO file format compatibility. You will not need to learn a different office package whether you are using Windows, Mac OSX or most Gnu&Linux systems out in the market today. Also the support for an extremely large population base through the different language packs is a very good thing for non-English or multi-language users. I had a lady from Israel tell me that, since she has to type documents up in English, French, Hebrew, and Arabic one in a while. She told me that MSO did not support Hebrew and the other languages in a single install and could not get multiple language support for MSO on one system.

LO, supported and contributed by volunteers and tech companies alike.
LO, supports most computer OSs in the home and business markets - Windows, Mac, Linux.
LO, supports 100+ languages through its language packs, help packs, and some add-on extensions.

I doubt that MSO would ever get as far with all three of these "lines" like LO does. LO "can" support more systems out in the market, but we need to convince more of the home, school, business, and governmental, markets and make our market share rise world wide.

Thanks for the links Girvin.

The whole point is not the specifics of the genealogy of the OSs that can be supported, but it does support them and can be "easily" ported to some others, as long as there are not any hardware issues like tablets. MSO would never support such a diverse market, like LO does and could be ported to.

Hi :) 
Yes, the main points were good.  I was just pointing out a few minor, trivial, mostly irrelevant details that were a little askew.

I like this quote from Linus' posting 1991-08-26 to the usenet group
"Hello everybody out there using minix -
I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)"

Btw the term Gnu/Linux seems to be trying to say "Gnu on top of a Linux kernel" (which makes sense and is pretty accurate) but most people will read that as "Gnu divided by Linux" (which is absurd and meaningless).  I prefer Gnu&Linux because it is both added together that makes the whole system.  Each to their own though! [shrugs]

However all that is an aside from the original tangent which was that i really like the way this list is able to give people help on interesting features of all the major platforms.  Also that it's good to have packages that work on all systems so people can keep using what they are familiar with. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile: