Shortcut change to display data source browser in Calc

users
#1

Hi all Base users,

It seems the design team have taken it upon themselves to change the
shortcut for displaying the data source browser in Calc, you can read up
on the issue here :

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59418

and comment on it as you deem fit.

Needless to say, this change makes Writer and Calc have two different
shortcuts.

Calc (quote from design irc) : "it has been changed already, it is now
CTRL+SHIFT+F4 in calc"

Writer : F4

so much for application suite consistency, and documentation, and what
the hell...

#2

Thank you Alex for bringing up the topic of shortcut changes.

I guess there is no gate keeper WRT shortcut assignments in LO.

I am not a user of Base but I am a frequent user of Calc. Shortcut changes are extremely disruptive for users. My least favorite (most detested!!) such change occurred in version 4.4 of Calc when Alt+E,I was assigned to a brand new menu item in place of "Fill."

PLEASE, developers, think about the impact your change will have on existing users. Then if you deem the change IMPORTANT enough to be warranted make certain that A) any replaced usage of the shortcut is assigned a new SUITABLE replacement, B) the changed shortcut is applied universally wherever the functionality exists in any module of LO, and most importantly C) the changed shortcut is PROMINENTLY advertised, preferably several months in advance, with comments solicited and carefully considered. The longer a shortcut has existed the more attention should be given should be given to the impact of changing it with shortcuts that have existed for more than one full major release being ALMOST cast in granite. Developers should not operate in a tyrannical manner. They are talented and greatly appreciated but they are not omniscient gods.

#3

James E. Lang wrote:

I am not a user of Base but I am a frequent user of Calc. Shortcut
changes are extremely disruptive for users. My least favorite (most
detested!!) such change occurred in version 4.4 of Calc when Alt+E,I
was assigned to a brand new menu item in place of "Fill."

That one has caught me out a few times in Calc; I've even lost work because of it a few times. Alt+E, I, D used to fill down. Now it reopens the file in read-only edit mode, without saving changes (it does prompt, but the final D selects "Don't Save") Yes, I know there's also Ctrl+D to fill down, but for some reason I'm used to Alt+E, I, D and automatically type that.

If they wanted to use Alt+E, I for Edit Mode, I don't really see why it couldn't have been done the same as in other menus where several options share the same letter. e.g. in Calc Alt+I brings up the insert menu, then H selects between "Hyperlink" and "Headers and Footers" and you have to press Enter on the one you want.

For what it's worth, the problem of changing shortcuts is not unique to LibreOffice. In MS Outlook 2003, Ctrl+S saved a draft of an email, while in Outlook 2007 Ctrl+S sent it without any further confirmation. Fortunately I never accidentally sent anything more embarrassing than a half-finished response as a result (at least, I don't think I did...)

Mark.

#4

James E. Lang wrote:

I am not a user of Base but I am a frequent user of Calc. Shortcut changes are extremely disruptive for users. My least favorite (most detested!!) such change occurred in version 4.4 of Calc when Alt+E,I was assigned to a brand new menu item in place of "Fill."

That one has caught me out a few times in Calc; I've even lost work because of it a few times. Alt+E, I, D used to fill down. Now it reopens the file in read-only edit mode,

[I also used to use Alt+E, I, R; Alt+E, I, L; or Alt+E, I, U to fill right, left, or up respectively. Read-only edit mode sounds to me like a self contradictory phrase and having it activated instead of fill is certainly disruptive. -- jl]

without saving changes (it does prompt, but the final D selects "Don't Save") Yes, I know there's also Ctrl+D to fill down, but for some reason I'm used to Alt+E, I, D and automatically type that.

If they wanted to use Alt+E, I for Edit Mode, I don't really see why it couldn't have been done the same as in other menus where several options share the same letter. e.g. in Calc Alt+I brings up the insert menu, then H selects between "Hyperlink" and "Headers and Footers" and you have to press Enter on the one you want.

[That seems like a reasonable suggestion. -- jl]

For what it's worth, the problem of changing shortcuts is not unique to LibreOffice. In MS Outlook 2003, Ctrl+S saved a draft of an email, while in Outlook 2007 Ctrl+S sent it without any further confirmation. Fortunately I never accidentally sent anything more embarrassing than a half-finished response as a result (at least, I don't think I did...)

[I repeat that changing shortcuts disrupts user productivity regardless who does it: MS or LO. I hope developers are taking notice. I don't know whether any of them lurk (or even actively participate) on this users list. If not then I hope someone harvests ideas from this list and summarizes them for the developers. I think a bug report might be overkill but maybe not. Does anyone care to weigh in on this? -- jl]

Mark.

#5

James E Lang wrote:

libreoffice-ml.mbourne@spamgourmet.com To:
users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 6:40 Subject: Re:
[libreoffice-users] Shortcut changes

James E. Lang wrote:

I am not a user of Base but I am a frequent user of Calc. Shortcut
changes are extremely disruptive for users. My least favorite (most
detested!!) such change occurred in version 4.4 of Calc when
Alt+E,I was assigned to a brand new menu item in place of "Fill."

That one has caught me out a few times in Calc; I've even lost work
because of it a few times. Alt+E, I, D used to fill down. Now it
reopens the file in read-only edit mode,

[I also used to use Alt+E, I, R; Alt+E, I, L; or Alt+E, I, U to fill
right, left, or up respectively. Read-only edit mode sounds to me
like a self contradictory phrase -- jl]

That's probably just my bad phrasing, in attempting to keep it short. The action is actually to toggle "Edit Mode", where turning off "Edit Mode" reloads the file read-only.

[and having it activated instead of
fill is certainly disruptive. -- jl]

without saving changes (it does prompt, but the final D selects
"Don't Save") Yes, I know there's also Ctrl+D to fill down, but for
some reason I'm used to Alt+E, I, D and automatically type that.

If they wanted to use Alt+E, I for Edit Mode, I don't really see why
it couldn't have been done the same as in other menus where several
options share the same letter. e.g. in Calc Alt+I brings up the
insert menu, then H selects between "Hyperlink" and "Headers and
Footers" and you have to press Enter on the one you want.

[That seems like a reasonable suggestion. -- jl]

For what it's worth, the problem of changing shortcuts is not unique
to LibreOffice. In MS Outlook 2003, Ctrl+S saved a draft of an email,
while in Outlook 2007 Ctrl+S sent it without any further
confirmation. Fortunately I never accidentally sent anything more
embarrassing than a half-finished response as a result (at least, I
don't think I did...)

[I repeat that changing shortcuts disrupts user productivity
regardless who does it: MS or LO. -- jl]

I agree. Particularly when the new action can be destructive (reloading without saving) and/or irreversible (sending an email).

[I hope developers are taking
notice. I don't know whether any of them lurk (or even actively
participate) on this users list. If not then I hope someone harvests
ideas from this list and summarizes them for the developers. I think
a bug report might be overkill but maybe not. Does anyone care to
weigh in on this? -- jl]

Ah, according to bug 93326 comment 8:
   https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93326#c8
and comment 10:
   https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93326#c10
Alt+E, I was changed back to Fill in versions 4.4.6 and 5.0.1, with Alt+E, D for Edit Mode.

Can anyone confirm that? I'm still on 4.4.2; must upgrade sometime...

Mark.

#6

Thank you Mark,

#7

The customize work around is valid. I have modified Fill to be F~ill and Ed~it Mode to be E~dit Mode. This makes 4.4.5.2 equivalent to 4.4.6.x in this regard. Note that existing accelerators do not appear in the Customize Menu Content Entries pane (a part of the Tools menu structure).

#8

As Ctrl-Shift-F4 is pre-assigned to switching between open windows in a
desktop workspace on OSX, there is now (in master) no easy way to
display the data source browser.

Alex

#9

This particular change from F4 to Ctrl-Shift_F4 for data source in Calc but not in Writer is a massive problem. The F4 shortcut has been around for YEARS.

I now have to re-write my tutorials and workshop examples.
I now have to go back to the hundreds of users that have been using F4 for YEARS and try to explain why there is a difference between Calc & Writer.

A large number of the people (I have trained ) that use LibreOffice use F4 for mail merge in Writer and Pivot Tables in Calc.
Because the usual source is a MySQL database where data is being updated on a regular basis, the mail merge and pivot tables need updating regularly.

Why was this change made?
As far as I can see (from the bugzilla history) it was requested in 2013 because 1 or 2 people, that are changing from Lotus 123 to Calc could not make the change from F4 to Shift-F4 for the "Absolute cell reference shortcut".

I don't remember any of "my" users having ever found it necessary to change the cell reference from absolute to relative once they have formatted a cell.

So I agree with James Lang & Alexander Thurgood when they decry this change.
Who made the change 2 years after it was requested, without discussing it with the people on this list?

Developers, please do NOT make changes to existing menu options and shortcuts without FULLY consulting the "professional" users of LibreOffice.
Thank you.

Tony Bray

#10

+1
Agree.

#11

Better to comment on the bug report itself, rather than here, as most
developers don't read the user mailing list regularly - too much noise.

Alex

#12

In truth it's better to join the UX mailing list and get involved with the
project as that's where this kind of discussion belongs and where a
resolution might be found. "Screaming" from the sidelines usually won't
accomplish much.

Best,
Joel

#13

The only problem is that it wasn't actually discussed on the UX mailing
list, but only came up in the bug reference, which was copied to the UX
mailing list.

Additionally, this bug initially concerned absolute file referencing in
Calc, so would have passed under the radar of most people concerned by
Base UX issues even if there had been a discussion (which there wasn't,
at least not on the mailing list).

Alex

#14

The only problem is that it wasn't actually discussed on the UX mailing
list, but only came up in the bug reference, which was copied to the UX
mailing list.

Additionally, this bug initially concerned absolute file referencing in
Calc, so would have passed under the radar of most people concerned by
Base UX issues even if there had been a discussion (which there wasn't,
at least not on the mailing list).

Sure - I'm not saying they catch everything or discuss everything, as that
would be very difficult to do. All I'm saying is that such a discussion
(even if done after the fact) can improve discussions for the future and
lead to a better product. The user mailing list typically isn't a good
place for discussing improvements (if the goal is to reach out to
contributors), nor is commenting with caps lock on as this just irritates
contributors (from my experience over the years) and adds nothing to the
fruitful and positive attitude in the project.

Just my two cents. I know all of the people on the UX team and they are all
fantastic people who are always open to bringing in new voices and
incorporating lots of ideas moving forward.

Best,
Joel

#15

Sorry but my ignorance is showing. What is the "UX mailing list?" Please explain.