spacing after punctuation

users
#21

Hi :slight_smile:
I think John was trying to describe Framemaker and how it differs from Writer.  While Writer can use frames it is not the default way of using it.  Normally people just type straight into a document.  I think John is saying that Framemaker doesn't let people type in outside of frames.

In some ways frames force greater control but that level of control makes things less fluid and flexible.  So while it's great for desktop publishing it makes it difficult for normal word-processing.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#22

Unsurprisingly, I was commenting on what he said (not what someone else thinks he was trying to do) and thinking of its effect on his large audience on this list.

Brian Barker

#23

If it helps, and I doubt it will, as a member of the larger audience, I fully understood what John was describing based on what he had written, which is exactly as Tom represented it.

Virgil

#24

No, they're not, actually. You don't find publishers using MS Word files,
which are simply not up to the job.

I don't know what publishers you are looking at, but all of the
publishers whose submission guidelines I've read, have requested files
in MS Doc file format. (FWIW, I've read over the submission guidelines
of over 100 publishers in the last year.)

I think the avoidance of true small caps and old style numbering has more to

do with the practice of font creators, most of whom omit these features.

That might be true for FLOSS font creators. It is not true for the
foundries whose fonts are in the 4+ digit price range.

jonathon

#25

If it helps, and I doubt it will, ...

Ho, ho! You are so unsure of your own position?

... as a member of the larger audience, I fully understood what John was describing based on what he had written, ...

As did we all, I'm sure. But what he wrote wasn't a fair comparison.

... which is exactly as Tom represented it.

Well, he said "I think John was trying to describe Framemaker and how it differs from Writer". (It happens that this was wrong anyway: the original claim contrasted Writer and Framemaker on the one hand against "page layout applications" on the other.) The original message put Writer in one group, in which "a document consists of a continuous stream of text. If you insert additional text at the beginning, all the text moves down, including the creation of new pages at the end if necessary." No mention of frames. Then there was the other group of page layout software, in which "each page is a container. Everything that goes on a page goes into a graphics or a text frame." Everything is frames.

The impression was clearly given that Writer didn't do frames. The original poster has assured us he knows that Writer can handle frames, so what is left to discuss, please? My concern was not you - I'm confident you know the facts already! - or him, but the thousands of other list subscribers out there who could have been persuaded to believe that Writer wouldn't do linked frames. That would be a pity.

Brian Barker

#26

[cut]

However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux
Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all.
It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version,
4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its "Linux" name,
the font works just as well in Windows.)

http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent
companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G)

Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font
name, such as "Linux Libertine G:onum=1" to use old style numbers.
Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (&). It can be a
little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at:

www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf

The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier.

http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo

This looks very useful, but I note that it hasn't been updated since
2010 and OOo (LO?) 3.4. Is it known to function with LO 4.1?

Peter HB

#27

I'll speak from some level of technological ignorance. I think the font itself has not been updated in a while, but, what makes the font work with LO and AOO is the Graphite engine. This is where I get real ignorant, but I've found that as LO and AOO are upgraded, they work better with the Linux Libertine G fonts. For example, there is a switch in the font (itlc=2), which provides proper alignment of Italic text next to Roman text. You'll notice that the "fontfeatures.pdf" website says this switch doesn't work with LO 3.4. That is true; it doesn't. And, up to last week, it didn't work for me with LO 3.6.7. However, I upgraded to LO 4.0.5 and, voila, the switch works. Also, in prior versions of LO, Linux Libertine seemed to cause some crashes, but I haven't experienced a crash since LO 3.6. I don't think this is due to changes in the font, but rather improvements in LO itself. (I won't upgrade to LO 4.1.x until "x" becomes 5 or higher).

Perhaps someone else with knowledge about how LO and Graphite work together can chime in. I just know that every successive version of LO works better with the Libertine G and Biolinium G fonts, much to my delight.

It has become my default LO font for both my Windows and Linux partitions on my dual boot system.

Virgil

#28

I am a font person, and do not use the Libertine and Biolinium fonts
often. But I agree with your statement that each version of LO is
displaying and printing better than the last one, some some people. The
"graphics" engine that renders the fonts is improving.

I too use LO for both my Linux and Windows systems. I have not
installed any non-trial version of MSO since MSO2003.

As a font person, I use a lot of "specialty fonts" over the years. So
the better the package works with fonts, the better it is for me. I use
to have to take some fonts and change them to JPG files just to use them
in document. Now that is almost a thing of the past, depending how
complex the font actually is.

As for not using those two font "families", well, I have over 14 GB of
fonts in my font collection and I try to stay below 400 installed fonts
at any time. We are talking about 40 font files for the two, if you
included all of different "styles". So I am not installing most of them
right now.

#29

While I love playing with fonts, I'm mostly interested in good book style fonts, time-proven classics like Garamond, Goudy Old Style, or Century Schoolbook. While Times New Roman is the most ubiquitous, at least in the Windows world, it's condensed nature doesn't lend itself to long-term comfortable reading. That said, Robert Bringhurst, in his book, The Elements of Typographic Style, says it's better to use a font like Times if you have all the expert effects, than to use a better font without them.

This is where Linux Libertine G comes in. Although it is modeled after Times, it's not quite as condensed, so it works better for longer documents. But, with LO, one has access to all sorts of expert effects, making it a full featured typeface. While I might prefer a different font, I'd rather use Libertine to full effect than a less complete Garamond.

Another excellent free typeface is OFL Sorts Mill Goudy. It uses old style numbering by default. But, it lacks a boldface font.

www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/sorts-mill-goudy

Virgil

#30

Sorry for the confusion. The Typography Toolbar itself is simply a graphic way of accessing the expert features of Linux Libertine G. I rarely use it as I control everything through styles and simply type in the features I want in the font name box.

Virgil

#31

I haven't followed this thread closely, but I need a little more
information on the Linux libertine font. Here's what I find on my
PCLINUXOS distro using filefinder for *libertine* :

file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RZ_G.ttf
file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RI_G.ttf
file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RBI_G.ttf
file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RZI_G.ttf
file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_R_G.ttf
file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RB_G.ttf
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_kp.tex
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_palatino.tex
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_times.tex
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex4ht/ht-fonts/alias/libertine
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex4ht/ht-fonts/unicode/libertine
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.mkii
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.mkiv
file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.tex

--doug

#32

The big thing about having a very large collection of fonts, is you can
from time to time find one that works better for a "job" than than the
one you used before.

Also, if you need to use a specific font for a document/project, you
either have it or can find one that will work 99% as well.

It has been a long time since I did any real comparison between fonts,
serif to serif, sans to sans, etc., but there are sites out there with
list of alternative fonts. I usually have one of these alternatives. I
also have a full Adobe font library from the mid-to-late 2000's. I jeep
the Type-One fonts in a compressed folder and only keep the TTF and OTF
ones to compare to from time to time.

I have downloaded a few of the "The League Of. . ." fonts before, any I
believe I have that "Goudy" one as well. I do not want to go looking
for it right now. I am not actively adding to me collection anymore,
except for some really "specialty fonts" Tom Davis [on these lists] can
tell you about some of them. Things like letters made up of bones for
Halloween and other "interestingly" designed ones for the other holidays
in the USA. If you love trains, I have a collection of train related
fonts as well.

BUT, for the most part, 80% of the Serif fonts looks a lot like a large
number of other Serif ones. The same goes for San-Serif. When you get
down to it, there are some good free fonts out there that are 99%
similar to paid ones. I prefer to use free ones. I use the MS-Core
fonts that are included with most Linux installs, when dealing with MS
Office people and their documents. They seem to prefer that for some
reason. . .

One day, I will start going through my fonts and start comparing them
again. But that is a long long process. I hope to find a comprehensive
font comparison site one of these days so I do not need to do all this
by hand.

As for "book" fonts and such, as my book editor friend tells me, if the
publisher prefers to publish the books in a certain font family, then
you use that font family for your documents. They should have spent a
lot of time and money deciding which fonts work with which type of books
and content. So I will not challenge their efforts.

For myself, if I decide to, I will take a paragraph to a page worth of
text and print it out with various font types and styles to see which
one works best for me and those I show the pages to. My idea of easy
reading might not be others, with Dyslexia and 3 strokes to muddle my
brain with. Actually there are some specific fonts created for people
like me [with my brain issues] for easier reading that the "standard
book" fonts.

As for books about fonts and typography, well I have only one and that
was printed when word processing was in its early stages and there was
not many fonts to choose from.

#33

However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G,
has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent
typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work
very well with it. (Despite its "Linux" name, the font works just as well in
Windows.)

http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent
companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G)

I was already familiar with these fonts. But ....

Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name,
such as "Linux Libertine G:onum=1" to use old style numbers. Various
extensions are separated by the ampersand (&). It can be a little cumbersome
at first, but there is an excellent guide at:

www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf

... I was unaware of this possibility or ...

The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier.

http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo

... this really neat tool! Many, many thanks for bringing it to my
attention, Virgil. (I stayed up way too late last night experimenting
with it!)

I think this tool should be built into LO. It is a lot more useful
than some of the extensions which are already automatically included.

#34

Glad to be of help.

As someone else noted, there is a more updated Typography Toolbar at the LO extension website. The link I previously gave was to an older version.

The newer version can be found at:

http://extensions.libreoffice.org/extension-center/typography-toolbar

LO and Linux Libertine G have really gelled nicely together.

Virgil

#35

Doug,

Can you be a little more specific about what information you need?

Virgil

#36

What are all these fonts? From reading the thread, I got the impression that there was just *one* libertine font. What is the one
like Goudy? (sp?) What is the one that looks like Times?
I don't even know what the various "book" fonts are. Libertine was
supposed to be such a wonderful thing--well which one is the wonderful one? Which one comes closest to the font that most modern fiction is published in? (Whatever that's called.) Is there a tutorial about these
wonderful fonts someplace?

Whatever is the "wonderful" one, I'll try it and see if is appeals to
me over just everyday Times-Roman.

Thanx--doug

#37

On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:32:48 -0400 doug dijo:

Whatever is the "wonderful" one, I'll try it and see if is appeals to
me over just everyday Times-Roman.

I have LO 3.5.7.2 on a recent fresh install and up to date Xubuntu
12.04. I have done a lot of DTP since I bought my first computer in
1978, recently mostly with Scribus, but occasionally I use LO. I was
very interested in this discussion of the Linux Libertine font and its
amazing abilities with the typography toolbar extension.

I downloaded and installed Linux Libertine from the Ubuntu repos, and
also installed the typography toolbar 1.1. The font appears fine and
the toolbar appears as I think it is supposed to. But there is a
problem. I opened an unimportant LO file to experiment with, selected
some text that had a number in it, applied Linux Libertine font, then
clicked on the old style numerals button in the toolbar. Nothing
happened. I repeated this with ligatures, tried true small caps, and
various other features of the toolbar, but the text flickered for an
instant and no changes were made.

Of course I closed LO and restarted it, but still nada. I am guessing
there is some fundamental setting somewhere that must be turned on for
this to work. Anyone have any clues?

#38

Did you download Linux Libertine "G"? There are different versions of the Libertine font. Some have an "O" at the end and others have a "G". The "G" stands for Graphite and they are the only ones that have access to the expert glyphs. It doesn't work with the Libertine "O" flavor.

Virgil

#39

First - - -
Everyone has their own opinion of which font is the most "wonderful" one
that they have used.

Second - - -
There are a few "ideas" on what a "book" font is, but for me a book font
is one that is really easy to read for extended periods, like in a
hardcover novel or paperback.

Third - - -
Times-Roman - Times is the generic font name. Many fonts started from
the "generic Times" look. Roman is actually a type of style for the
most part. Some equate Roman as the same as "normal" or "un-styled".
Times-Roman is a "classic" font that is used by many computer systems as
the original default font. There are other "Times" fonts, including
"Times", "Times New Roman" "Times Europa", "Old Times", just to name a
few that I have seen or have in my font collection.

If you really want to see how many "Times" fonts there are, or which
fonts came from Times, then go to the Wiki page and you may be
surprised. I do not remember which version of Times is part of the MS
core fonts that is installed with Windows, or installed in Linux with
the "ttf-mscorefonts-installer" package.

Forth - - -
To be honest, many fonts have one file for each style. One for Bold,
for Italic, Bold Italic, etc., etc..

For LinLibertine:

_R - regular
_RI - italic
_RB - bold
_RZ - semi-bold
_RZI - semi-bold italic
_aBL - bold slanted

Each of the files are a different style for the font.
For "LinLibertine", I have 16 different styles
LinLibertine and LinLibertine G are two different fonts.
I have only 6 for "G" so far.

This is just the nature of the font file world. If you have a font with
different styles, either you have that style file installed OR you must
have a software package that takes a font and generates the style you
need internally. There are some "complex" fonts that have more than one
style in a single file, but sometimes they are not the easiest to find
and sometimes not easy for a package to use properly.

#40

Kracked_P_P wrote:

[snip]

First - - -
Everyone has their own opinion of which font is the most "wonderful" one
that they have used.

Second - - -
There are a few "ideas" on what a "book" font is, but for me a book font
is one that is really easy to read for extended periods, like in a
hardcover novel or paperback.

Third - - -
Times-Roman - Times is the generic font name. Many fonts started from
the "generic Times" look. Roman is actually a type of style for the
most part. Some equate Roman as the same as "normal" or "un-styled".
Times-Roman is a "classic" font that is used by many computer systems as
the original default font. There are other "Times" fonts, including
"Times", "Times New Roman" "Times Europa", "Old Times", just to name a
few that I have seen or have in my font collection.

If you really want to see how many "Times" fonts there are, or which
fonts came from Times, then go to the Wiki page and you may be
surprised. I do not remember which version of Times is part of the MS
core fonts that is installed with Windows, or installed in Linux with
the "ttf-mscorefonts-installer" package.

Forth - - -
To be honest, many fonts have one file for each style. One for Bold,
for Italic, Bold Italic, etc., etc..

For LinLibertine:

_R - regular
_RI - italic
_RB - bold
_RZ - semi-bold
_RZI - semi-bold italic
_aBL - bold slanted

Each of the files are a different style for the font.
For "LinLibertine", I have 16 different styles
LinLibertine and LinLibertine G are two different fonts.
I have only 6 for "G" so far.

This is just the nature of the font file world. If you have a font with
different styles, either you have that style file installed OR you must
have a software package that takes a font and generates the style you
need internally. There are some "complex" fonts that have more than one
style in a single file, but sometimes they are not the easiest to find
and sometimes not easy for a package to use properly.

Great response. I can't add much except a bit of history about the Times font. It was originally commissioned by the Times of London newspaper, which wanted a typeface having "strength of line and economy of space." It runs a little small for its nominal size and is somewhat condensed left to right, meaning its letters are narrower than those found in other fonts. To see the difference, type a line in 12 point Times and then the same line directly below it in something like 12 point Palatino, or Century, or Bookman. The second line will look enormous compared to the Times. The United States Supreme Court requires court briefs to be written in an 11 point Roman font. It warns lawyers that if they submit a brief in 11 point Times, the brief will be rejected because "11 point Times" is actually smaller than 11 points.

The flavor of Times that comes with MS Windows is "Times New Roman."

You will rarely see books printed in Times, the reason being it is intended for short bursts of reading, as in a newspaper article. Books tend to use fonts that are fuller and not condensed. Popular choices are Palatino, Century Schoolbook, Garamond, Minion, and Goudy Old Style.

Lastly, in addition to the font files (TTF) in Doug's list of files, the files having a "Tex" extension are probably some form of TeX/LaTeX document. I don't believe they would be fonts.

Virgil