spanish contribution - LibreOffice 3.3

l10n
#1

hello.

where is the spanish admin, here is the translated po file. i don't
know what to do.

#2

Hi Alex.

The Spanish team is organising in localizacion@oooes.org list...
majority. And submiting the translations to LibO l10n team. In the same
manner that OpenOffice.org translation do.

The leader (not official yet) is Santiago Bosio.

You (and all) are welcome for help.

#3

Hola Alex,

Santiago bosio submited the spanish po file a few weeks back. Currently there is a pootle site which you are welcome to subscribe to it.
http://pootle.libreoffice.org

I can grant you commiter rights on it. I am still nervous on suggesting the localizacion@oooes.org since we still working out with TDF if this list can be blessed. But as far as pootle we are sure we can work there safe.

Regards.

#4

Thank you

#5

here again

the url http://pootle.libreoffice.org appears don't be online, anyway
i'm still seeking arround.

but, i got the register in this one

http://translations.documentfoundation.org/

the .po file in there, has some no translated parts, that file I mean

#6

Please let me know your username so I can give you commit rights.

#7

Hello all,

> hello.
>
> where is the spanish admin, here is the translated po file. i don't
> know what to do.
>
>
>

Hola Alex,

Santiago bosio submited the spanish po file a few weeks back.
Currently there is a pootle site which you are welcome to subscribe
to it. http://pootle.libreoffice.org

Right.

I can grant you commiter rights on it. I am still nervous on
suggesting the localizacion@oooes.org since we still working out with
TDF if this list can be blessed. But as far as pootle we are sure we
can work there safe.

Yes. My initial reaction is that we do have a spanish list here, why
would you want to go elsewhere? I think the Spanish speaking community
of contributors is diverse enough (it encompasses several continents,
with several teams) so that we can use our lists:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Local_Mailing_Lists

There are three mailing lists there in Spanish.

On the other hand I'm not sure who took the decision to point ever
Spanish volunteer to OOoES. I don' t think OOoES, which by the way has
the name "OOo" in it, represents every spanish contributor out there.
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Main_Page/es

Best,
Charles.

#8

Hi Charles.

I wana talk you about oooES. I'm a coordinator, with Alexandro and Luis
Vásquez.

The spanish comunity is big, but no as big as all Hispanic users need.
In this line of thinking, we decide to use oooES, a civil association
formally constituted by our group since february 2009.

The name not represent that only support OpenOffice.org. We are an
association from users and by users, an association by support and
localization. We aren't a fork of OpenOffice.

We have 5 principles (http://www.oooes.org/principios.html)

1) oooES is an independent organization products (applications) of.
2) The materials created by oooES community are and allways be free.
3) oooES work with your own tools, for the communities management. For
provide support, development, localization and promotion ALL products of.
4) oooES don't have preference by any product, and don't work for
discredit of someone.
5) oooES maintain the net of professional partners that offer official
services in spanish, in someone of the products. And this partners help
intellectual and economically to support the own infrastructure oooES of.

How you can see, we are a group that help to TDF, OOo and ooo4Kids in
the same way. No preferences. No discredit. Allways in the users side.

We need and want this recognition of TDF. Please you effort to
understand this manner of resolve our situation. I don't know if is the
better way, but is our way.

If you are agree, we can be THE Hispanic community for your users.

Best regards.

#9

Yes. My initial reaction is that we do have a spanish list here, why
would you want to go elsewhere? I think the Spanish speaking community
of contributors is diverse enough (it encompasses several continents,
with several teams) so that we can use our lists:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Local_Mailing_Lists

There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting where we introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper conference would be SC, but the conversation seem to make sense to avoid duplication of efforts due to breach communications. Also we already present a framework of interaction with third party groups that would also benefit from the efforts we are coordinated.

Mailing lists really are communication channels, few gets done (aside from support tasks) on the ML. So it makes sense to hold the most ammount communicating on the fewer lists. At the end of the day the work and effots will be seen on other sites like the Wiki, Pootle and other 'working' sites.

#10

Hi Alexandro,

I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..

Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)

There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting where we
introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper conference would be

can you pls show me the letter?

SC, but the conversation seem to make sense to avoid duplication of
efforts due to breach communications. Also we already present a
framework of interaction with third party groups that would also benefit
from the efforts we are coordinated.

and explain what you mean with this?

Thanks,
Cor

#11

Hi Alexandro,

I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..

Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)

There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting where we
introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper conference would be

can you pls show me the letter?

Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing meeting recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011

#12

Hi Alexandro,

Alexandro Colorado wrote (14-11-10 00:32)

I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..

Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)

There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting where we
introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper conference would be

can you pls show me the letter?

Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing meeting
recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011

Thanks for the link.
Practical idea to have people working on Spanish LO, OOo and OOo4kids on one list.
This will have advantages for localization. For marketing, I am not sure how that works.
Also, looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads "OpenOffice.org Español" ..

A thing that is not clear to me, is how to deal with the situation that there are many Spanish speaking countries, where people must be able to find themselves encouraged and supported. Do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, I remember quite some situations where you asked funding to fly from Mexico to wherever to do a presentation.
How many countries are already involved and what are their ideas?

There are some examples from the past years, mostly in the certification project, where I found your way of communicating not supportive for sharing and growing involvement, to say it brief.
To me that is of great concern in every situation and especially our current one, where we start to build connections and processes.

So though I can see advantages for l10n and users (as Roman clearly explained) I am not yet convinced that the proposed situation is what we really want for a strong The Document Foundation and LibreOffice.
Therefore I write my concerns, so that you may take the opportunity to explain or take additional action.

  ...

SC, but the conversation seem to make sense to avoid duplication of
efforts due to breach communications. Also we already present a
framework of interaction with third party groups that would also benefit
from the efforts we are coordinated.

and explain what you mean with this?

Can you pls explain this too?

Thanks & kind regards,
Cor

#13

Hi Alexandro,

Alexandro Colorado wrote (14-11-10 00:32)

I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..

Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)

There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting where we
introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper conference would be

can you pls show me the letter?

Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing meeting
recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011

Thanks for the link.
Practical idea to have people working on Spanish LO, OOo and OOo4kids on one list.
This will have advantages for localization. For marketing, I am not sure how that works.
Also, looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads "OpenOffice.org Español" ..

Is no difference from the TDF leading (at least a the beginning) to ooodev.org the german group. But we will be changing it to oooES eventually, like many other groups we are building form the infrastructure that we had in OOo and the change is not organized on a big Checklist that we can just modify in one process. However the way it works is similar to many organizations that were formed behind the native-lang originally.

A thing that is not clear to me, is how to deal with the situation that there are many Spanish speaking countries, where people must be able to find themselves encouraged and supported. Do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, I remember quite some situations where you asked funding to fly from Mexico to wherever to do a presentation.
How many countries are already involved and what are their ideas?

The group is a regional group, not a country specific group. The members are from different countries and very seldom do they repeat countries. Yes I did flying the most as the lead of the Spanish group. But minor flights were also funded by our budget for other members to do inner traveling in their countries.

Some ideas worked better for us than others, we held weekly conf calls and have been able to work together quite well. So we sync our presentations for campaigns like FLISOL which is the latin american installfests, syncronizing the message. There still some countries in the region that has no contributers specially the smaller countries and others that are very active. The idea is to be able to 'push' the efforts to this countries.

There are some examples from the past years, mostly in the certification project, where I found your way of communicating not supportive for sharing and growing involvement, to say it brief.
To me that is of great concern in every situation and especially our current one, where we start to build connections and processes.

I also found my share of lack of communication from the processes that were stablish by the OOo team. There was a lot of unwritten and undocumented process due to discovery came to work out in the end. The process was also slow and sometimes uncertain (we weren't sure if things were done, or we still miss things to do).

So though I can see advantages for l10n and users (as Roman clearly explained) I am not yet convinced that the proposed situation is what we really want for a strong The Document Foundation and LibreOffice.
Therefore I write my concerns, so that you may take the opportunity to explain or take additional action.

Well I will suggest to take this the other way around. Starting from scratch usually takes time to start getting to known what to do. So most of the things still need to be invented, discovered. Lists are usually empty and slowly growing. Bringing a group with experience might already have a set of processes and organization that could speed development.

Example, l10n is done in pootle, because many people have experience from OOo and already understand the tool. If the people coming here didn't had that experience, they will probably questioned and compare pootle with other tools. Similar to what is happening on the website@ list comparing Drupal vs Silver???.

Comparing those two, we can have localizators working on what they do faster than, content creators on their app. Same thing can be said with using mediawiki and maybe PhpBB or similars.

The letter was signed up by a team that already have experience working on the localization of OOo for many versions, there are builders, localizators, editors, content creators and organizers/moderators. Now I am not sure what would 'strong' mean in this sense, because it can be viewed that 'outsourcing' the work to a different brand (@es.libreoffice.org vs @oooes.org) mailing list domain could make it weaker. However I would say that actually having people with experience could make at least more effective on the short term.

Finally we have been looking what other 'sub-communities' like OOoAuthors and Forums have done, as they branch out to support LibreOffice as well as hosting their previous work. That way the knowledge and experience gets preserves and work keeps developing with no or small interuptions.

  ...

SC, but the conversation seem to make sense to avoid duplication of
efforts due to breach communications. Also we already present a
framework of interaction with third party groups that would also benefit
from the efforts we are coordinated.

and explain what you mean with this?

Can you pls explain this too?

I am reffering to the picture that you see at the end of the letter. Where we support each project infrastructure (wiki, pootle, webdev etc). But we join the ML so that the communication is not 'pulverized'.

#14

The user is nirvale

regards

#15

ok, i'm working on that

thank you

#16

Hello Alexandro,

> Hi Alexandro,
>
> Alexandro Colorado wrote (14-11-10 00:32)
>
>>> I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..
>>>
>>> Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)
>>>
>>>> There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting
>>>> where we introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper
>>>> conference would be
>>>
>>> can you pls show me the letter?
>>
>> Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing
>> meeting recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
>> http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011
>
> Thanks for the link.
> Practical idea to have people working on Spanish LO, OOo and
> OOo4kids on one list.
> This will have advantages for localization. For marketing, I am not
> sure how that works.

Well, that rests one technical assumption that will end up being wrong
very quickly: that LibreOffice will keep up the same codebase and
follow OOo. I think problems will arise as soon as our 3.4.

> Also, looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange
> that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads
> "OpenOffice.org Español" ..

Is no difference from the TDF leading (at least a the beginning) to
ooodev.org the german group. But we will be changing it to oooES
eventually, like many other groups we are building form the
infrastructure that we had in OOo and the change is not organized on
a big Checklist that we can just modify in one process. However the
way it works is similar to many organizations that were formed behind
the native-lang originally.

No, and again you're assuming two things:
1) that we work with a similar structure as OOo does
2) that OOoES is like the German Association. It's not, first because
the German association only acts as the interim structure for the
foundation and not at all as a regional group; second because you
pretend OOoES is representative of the Spanish community of
contributors, which it isn't. Hence my note on the ES TDF wiki page:
it's all right to point to OOoES, but please point to the spanish TDF
lists and do not convey the message that you're handling the work for
us: you're not representing us in any way.

> A thing that is not clear to me, is how to deal with the situation
> that there are many Spanish speaking countries, where people must
> be able to find themselves encouraged and supported. Do you have
> any thoughts on that? I mean, I remember quite some situations
> where you asked funding to fly from Mexico to wherever to do a
> presentation. How many countries are already involved and what are
> their ideas?

The group is a regional group, not a country specific group. The
members are from different countries and very seldom do they repeat
countries. Yes I did flying the most as the lead of the Spanish
group. But minor flights were also funded by our budget for other
members to do inner traveling in their countries.

Some ideas worked better for us than others, we held weekly conf
calls and have been able to work together quite well. So we sync our
presentations for campaigns like FLISOL which is the latin american
installfests, syncronizing the message. There still some countries in
the region that has no contributers specially the smaller countries
and others that are very active. The idea is to be able to 'push' the
efforts to this countries.

> There are some examples from the past years, mostly in the
> certification project, where I found your way of communicating not
> supportive for sharing and growing involvement, to say it brief.
> To me that is of great concern in every situation and especially
> our current one, where we start to build connections and processes.

I also found my share of lack of communication from the processes
that were stablish by the OOo team. There was a lot of unwritten and
undocumented process due to discovery came to work out in the end.
The process was also slow and sometimes uncertain (we weren't sure if
things were done, or we still miss things to do).

> So though I can see advantages for l10n and users (as Roman
> clearly explained) I am not yet convinced that the proposed
> situation is what we really want for a strong The Document
> Foundation and LibreOffice. Therefore I write my concerns, so that
> you may take the opportunity to explain or take additional action.

Well I will suggest to take this the other way around. Starting from
scratch usually takes time to start getting to known what to do. So
most of the things still need to be invented, discovered. Lists are
usually empty and slowly growing. Bringing a group with experience
might already have a set of processes and organization that could
speed development.

You again assume things on your own:
1) that we have no experience
2) that we want to follow your way.
... let us choose our own way, our own processes, thank you.

best,
Charles.

#17

Hello Alexandro,

Hi Charles,

> Hi Alexandro,
>
> Alexandro Colorado wrote (14-11-10 00:32)
>
>>> I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..
>>>
>>> Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)
>>>
>>>> There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting
>>>> where we introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper
>>>> conference would be
>>>
>>> can you pls show me the letter?
>>
>> Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing
>> meeting recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
>> http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011
>
> Thanks for the link.
> Practical idea to have people working on Spanish LO, OOo and
> OOo4kids on one list.
> This will have advantages for localization. For marketing, I am not
> sure how that works.

Well, that rests one technical assumption that will end up being wrong
very quickly: that LibreOffice will keep up the same codebase and
follow OOo. I think problems will arise as soon as our 3.4.

You are right, but that is neither here or there since we are doing testing both products. Which means that if there are differences they would be easier to detect than if it's just being tested on one product. For example, LibO currently is based of the experimental branch as opposed to the unstable branch of the OOo which breaks on the jvmaccess library and the URE, this is the cause of the problem with the ure 3.2.1 on a system with a 3.3 which is many users found out when they tried to run LibO on a machine with OOo. http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=releases&msgNo=16351

> Also, looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange
> that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads
> "OpenOffice.org Español" ..

Is no difference from the TDF leading (at least a the beginning) to
ooodev.org the german group. But we will be changing it to oooES
eventually, like many other groups we are building form the
infrastructure that we had in OOo and the change is not organized on
a big Checklist that we can just modify in one process. However the
way it works is similar to many organizations that were formed behind
the native-lang originally.

No, and again you're assuming two things:
1) that we work with a similar structure as OOo does

AFAIK you work very similar, both work with donations, and both work with paypal. Both had also "OpenOffice.org" name on their bank account and initially on their paypal name. Cor asked "looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads "OpenOffice.org Español". My response is that he is right, it is strange and is a work in progress just like ooodev.org.

2) that OOoES is like the German Association. It's not, first because
the German association only acts as the interim structure for the
foundation and not at all as a regional group; second because you

So Cor original question didnt had to do with representing anybody, but simply that the Donate button lead to a paypal page with the title "OpenOffice.org Español" and confused users. My reference is that it similar to what users experienced with ooodev.org at the begining of TDF, which can also be read on this user:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg00136.html

pretend OOoES is representative of the Spanish community of
contributors, which it isn't. Hence my note on the ES TDF wiki page:
it's all right to point to OOoES, but please point to the spanish TDF
lists and do not convey the message that you're handling the work for
us: you're not representing us in any way.

Well I think that's the reason of the open letter, which by the way, I didn't wrote. I just sign up to it as well as other members from the group. Also this is something that is being looking forward to at the TDF list in spanish.
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@es.libreoffice.org/msg00004.html

As far as contribution goes, mostly has come from oooES community, starting with the locale for PO which was submited by Santiago Bosio (also on the signee list). http://www.mail-archive.com/l10n@libreoffice.org/msg00364.html

The TDF wiki http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:ES is also worked mainly by people on this letter. I am not sure there is a Spanish community of contributors yet on TDF, most people are just introducing themselves on the lists. You can read the archieves. Most of the emails are on the subject like "Presentacion" or Presentation. At the end of the day they want to contribute, but still need more information which is what I meant on my last email about 'know-how'.

> A thing that is not clear to me, is how to deal with the situation
> that there are many Spanish speaking countries, where people must
> be able to find themselves encouraged and supported. Do you have
> any thoughts on that? I mean, I remember quite some situations
> where you asked funding to fly from Mexico to wherever to do a
> presentation. How many countries are already involved and what are
> their ideas?

The group is a regional group, not a country specific group. The
members are from different countries and very seldom do they repeat
countries. Yes I did flying the most as the lead of the Spanish
group. But minor flights were also funded by our budget for other
members to do inner traveling in their countries.

Some ideas worked better for us than others, we held weekly conf
calls and have been able to work together quite well. So we sync our
presentations for campaigns like FLISOL which is the latin american
installfests, syncronizing the message. There still some countries in
the region that has no contributers specially the smaller countries
and others that are very active. The idea is to be able to 'push' the
efforts to this countries.

> There are some examples from the past years, mostly in the
> certification project, where I found your way of communicating not
> supportive for sharing and growing involvement, to say it brief.
> To me that is of great concern in every situation and especially
> our current one, where we start to build connections and processes.

I also found my share of lack of communication from the processes
that were stablish by the OOo team. There was a lot of unwritten and
undocumented process due to discovery came to work out in the end.
The process was also slow and sometimes uncertain (we weren't sure if
things were done, or we still miss things to do).

> So though I can see advantages for l10n and users (as Roman
> clearly explained) I am not yet convinced that the proposed
> situation is what we really want for a strong The Document
> Foundation and LibreOffice. Therefore I write my concerns, so that
> you may take the opportunity to explain or take additional action.

Well I will suggest to take this the other way around. Starting from
scratch usually takes time to start getting to known what to do. So
most of the things still need to be invented, discovered. Lists are
usually empty and slowly growing. Bringing a group with experience
might already have a set of processes and organization that could
speed development.

You again assume things on your own:
1) that we have no experience

I don't know if by 'we' you mean the spanish community or TDF in general. Are you part of the spanish community? If you mean libreoffice in general, then I never said that, and you are twisting things around. I said that the experienced people that had work together tend to act quicker than people that is just comming around to get to know each other.

2) that we want to follow your way.
... let us choose our own way, our own processes, thank you.

My way? Sorry but you are confusing this. This is not a 1 person operation, certainly not a 1 person activity. I am very interested how you single myself out when referring to the proposal, and you add yourself to a group when addressing your position. I wonder if you are somewhat personalizing this whole thing, which worries me to a point. The goal here is to provide users with the most help and resource possible. Speed usually helps that cause. The letter was build to improve the organization, is not an attempt to represent anybody or take control of anyone like you previously condemn.

Mailing lists are communication channels to improve organization on working sites (like wiki, translation sites, qa sites, documentation sites) and eventually code. Locale groups main activity is to produce a quality locale for the product, and also peripheral localization of other things like dictionaries, documentation and then there is the service of support to users. improving communication will improve on the overall performance of the previous things I mentioned.

For Cor it made sense on tasks such as localization, he asked things like marketing which I answer that in my experience it has help us because we have a network that help us act faster to launch an announcement on a local newspaper or on events like I previously mentioned.

On a side note, I wonder if this is happening with other locale groups are dealing with this.

#18

Hello Alexandro,

> Hello Alexandro,

Hi Charles,

>
>
>>
>> > Hi Alexandro,
>> >
>> > Alexandro Colorado wrote (14-11-10 00:32)
>> >
>> >>> I think I have some thoughts on this conversation, but first ..
>> >>>
>> >>> Alexandro Colorado wrote (13-11-10 23:55)
>> >>>
>> >>>> There was a conversation about this on the Marketing meeting
>> >>>> where we introduce the letter to TDF. Althought a more proper
>> >>>> conference would be
>> >>>
>> >>> can you pls show me the letter?
>> >>
>> >> Sure althought I recomend to hear the exchange on the marketing
>> >> meeting recording. I think it was around 1hr in the recording.
>> >> http://oooes.org/carta-tdf.html
>> >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls#11-Nov-2011
>> >
>> > Thanks for the link.
>> > Practical idea to have people working on Spanish LO, OOo and
>> > OOo4kids on one list.
>> > This will have advantages for localization. For marketing, I am
>> > not sure how that works.
>
> Well, that rests one technical assumption that will end up being
> wrong very quickly: that LibreOffice will keep up the same codebase
> and follow OOo. I think problems will arise as soon as our 3.4.

You are right, but that is neither here or there since we are doing
testing both products. Which means that if there are differences
they would be easier to detect than if it's just being tested on one
product. For example, LibO currently is based of the experimental
branch as opposed to the unstable branch of the OOo which breaks on
the jvmaccess library and the URE, this is the cause of the problem
with the ure 3.2.1 on a system with a 3.3 which is many users found
out when they tried to run LibO on a machine with OOo.
http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=releases&msgNo=16351

Yes, but we're not involved with the OOo development anymore.

>> > Also, looking from LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange
>> > that your Donate button leads to the paypal page which reads
>> > "OpenOffice.org Español" ..
>>
>> Is no difference from the TDF leading (at least a the beginning) to
>> ooodev.org the german group. But we will be changing it to oooES
>> eventually, like many other groups we are building form the
>> infrastructure that we had in OOo and the change is not organized
>> on a big Checklist that we can just modify in one process. However
>> the way it works is similar to many organizations that were formed
>> behind the native-lang originally.
>
>
> No, and again you're assuming two things:
> 1) that we work with a similar structure as OOo does

AFAIK you work very similar, both work with donations, and both work
with paypal. Both had also "OpenOffice.org" name on their bank
account and initially on their paypal name. Cor asked "looking from
LibreOffice perspective, it is rather strange that your Donate button
leads to the paypal page which reads "OpenOffice.org Español". My
response is that he is right, it is strange and is a work in progress
just like ooodev.org.

So what name would you think to take in the future?

> 2) that OOoES is like the German Association. It's not, first
> because the German association only acts as the interim structure
> for the foundation and not at all as a regional group; second
> because you

So Cor original question didnt had to do with representing anybody,
but simply that the Donate button lead to a paypal page with the
title "OpenOffice.org Español" and confused users. My reference is
that it similar to what users experienced with ooodev.org at the
begining of TDF, which can also be read on this user:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg00136.html

We've been quite clear about this I think. And again, OOoES is not TDF
and does not represent it.

> pretend OOoES is representative of the Spanish community of
> contributors, which it isn't. Hence my note on the ES TDF wiki page:
> it's all right to point to OOoES, but please point to the spanish
> TDF lists and do not convey the message that you're handling the
> work for us: you're not representing us in any way.

Well I think that's the reason of the open letter, which by the way,
I didn't wrote. I just sign up to it as well as other members from
the group. Also this is something that is being looking forward to at
the TDF list in spanish.
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@es.libreoffice.org/msg00004.html

As far as contribution goes, mostly has come from oooES community,
starting with the locale for PO which was submited by Santiago Bosio
(also on the signee list).
http://www.mail-archive.com/l10n@libreoffice.org/msg00364.html

The TDF wiki http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:ES is also
worked mainly by people on this letter. I am not sure there is a
Spanish community of contributors yet on TDF,

We did get many inquiries and questions from volunteers, and most of
them were not part of OOoES. So we set up spanish lists to that effect.

most people are just
introducing themselves on the lists. You can read the archieves. Most
of the emails are on the subject like "Presentacion" or Presentation.
At the end of the day they want to contribute, but still need more
information which is what I meant on my last email about 'know-how'.

>>
>>
>> > A thing that is not clear to me, is how to deal with the
>> > situation that there are many Spanish speaking countries, where
>> > people must be able to find themselves encouraged and supported.
>> > Do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, I remember quite some
>> > situations where you asked funding to fly from Mexico to
>> > wherever to do a presentation. How many countries are already
>> > involved and what are their ideas?
>>
>> The group is a regional group, not a country specific group. The
>> members are from different countries and very seldom do they repeat
>> countries. Yes I did flying the most as the lead of the Spanish
>> group. But minor flights were also funded by our budget for other
>> members to do inner traveling in their countries.
>>
>> Some ideas worked better for us than others, we held weekly conf
>> calls and have been able to work together quite well. So we sync
>> our presentations for campaigns like FLISOL which is the latin
>> american installfests, syncronizing the message. There still some
>> countries in the region that has no contributers specially the
>> smaller countries and others that are very active. The idea is to
>> be able to 'push' the efforts to this countries.
>>
>>
>> > There are some examples from the past years, mostly in the
>> > certification project, where I found your way of communicating
>> > not supportive for sharing and growing involvement, to say it
>> > brief. To me that is of great concern in every situation and
>> > especially our current one, where we start to build connections
>> > and processes.
>>
>> I also found my share of lack of communication from the processes
>> that were stablish by the OOo team. There was a lot of unwritten
>> and undocumented process due to discovery came to work out in the
>> end. The process was also slow and sometimes uncertain (we weren't
>> sure if things were done, or we still miss things to do).
>>
>> > So though I can see advantages for l10n and users (as Roman
>> > clearly explained) I am not yet convinced that the proposed
>> > situation is what we really want for a strong The Document
>> > Foundation and LibreOffice. Therefore I write my concerns, so
>> > that you may take the opportunity to explain or take additional
>> > action.
>>
>> Well I will suggest to take this the other way around. Starting
>> from scratch usually takes time to start getting to known what to
>> do. So most of the things still need to be invented, discovered.
>> Lists are usually empty and slowly growing. Bringing a group with
>> experience might already have a set of processes and organization
>> that could speed development.
>
>
> You again assume things on your own:
> 1) that we have no experience

I don't know if by 'we' you mean the spanish community or TDF in
general. Are you part of the spanish community? If you mean
libreoffice in general, then I never said that, and you are twisting
things around. I said that the experienced people that had work
together tend to act quicker than people that is just comming around
to get to know each other.

Yes but you're still assuming here :slight_smile:

> 2) that we want to follow your way.
> ... let us choose our own way, our own processes, thank you.

My way? Sorry but you are confusing this. This is not a 1 person
operation, certainly not a 1 person activity. I am very interested
how you single myself out when referring to the proposal, and you add
yourself to a group when addressing your position.

I never said you were alone Alexandro.

I wonder if you
are somewhat personalizing this whole thing, which worries me to a
point. The goal here is to provide users with the most help and
resource possible. Speed usually helps that cause.

I'm sorry speed isn't everything. What I tend to see is that you didn't
know which way to go after the announcement of TDF, you hesitated and
then came up with the notion that OOoES should be the hub for the
contribution of the Spanish community. Understand me Alexandro: that is
not a critic at all. It's just a perception that I have. So because of
this -actually quite daring move- I got news from many Spanish-speaking
people that they felt upset about that move, whether they wanted to
stick to OOo or go to LibO instead, but still didn't like the OOoES
solution. In the end, you didn't want to choose, and that's your right,
and I'm absolutely fine with it. TDF does not have any say with respect
to OOo or to what its contributors do with OOo; we're only interested
in your contributions. :slight_smile: But when we set up mailing list and that
your reaction is to say, well in fact we -the OOoES team- centralize
everything at our place and it's the only way to go, there I disagree.

The letter was
build to improve the organization, is not an attempt to represent
anybody or take control of anyone like you previously condemn.

Mailing lists are communication channels to improve organization on
working sites (like wiki, translation sites, qa sites, documentation
sites) and eventually code. Locale groups main activity is to produce
a quality locale for the product, and also peripheral localization of
other things like dictionaries, documentation and then there is the
service of support to users. improving communication will improve on
the overall performance of the previous things I mentioned.

For Cor it made sense on tasks such as localization, he asked things
like marketing which I answer that in my experience it has help us
because we have a network that help us act faster to launch an
announcement on a local newspaper or on events like I previously
mentioned.

On a side note, I wonder if this is happening with other locale
groups are dealing with this.

Well it's not. We are not against local group organizing themselves
with their own tools, in their own way. We believe in freedom. But
freedom stops where anyone else's freedom starts. So our freedom is to
have our own spanish mailing lists, wiki, etc. Please respect that: we
fully respect OOoES and welcome your contributions.

best,
Charles.