Style updates in Writer

users
#1

Hi

If i update a style that is used in a document e.g. change font and font size, should the whole document where that style is used be changed to the new settings when <Apply> is pressed? Currently I have to highlight the areas and then reapply the style to it.

regards

Ian

#2

Hi

If i update a style that is used in a document e.g. change font and font
size, should the whole document where that style is used be changed to the
new settings when <Apply> is pressed? Currently I have to highlight the
areas and then reapply the style to it.

They should update automatically *unless* direct formatting is applied to
the text. Direct formatting always brings problems. Can you share a
document, so we can see where the problem is? AFAIK the mailing list strips
attachments, so you need to upload the sample document anywhere else.

Regards,
Ricardo

#3

> Hi
>
> If i update a style that is used in a document e.g. change font and font
> size, should the whole document where that style is used be changed to the
> new settings when <Apply> is pressed? Currently I have to highlight the
> areas and then reapply the style to it.
>

They should update automatically *unless* direct formatting is applied to
the text. Direct formatting always brings problems. Can you share a
document, so we can see where the problem is? AFAIK the mailing list strips
attachments, so you need to upload the sample document anywhere else.

thanks. Its a document created on windows 10, so i'll bring it over to my system and see if its the same on linux. Is there a usual site used by libreoffice devs to get hold samples that i can upload to?

#4

> Hi
>
> If i update a style that is used in a document e.g. change font and font
> size, should the whole document where that style is used be changed to the
> new settings when <Apply> is pressed? Currently I have to highlight the
> areas and then reapply the style to it.
>

They should update automatically *unless* direct formatting is applied to
the text. Direct formatting always brings problems. Can you share a
document, so we can see where the problem is? AFAIK the mailing list strips
attachments, so you need to upload the sample document anywhere else.

I 've just done a few more tests after reading your comments. All the tests i've done are using the "Default Style".
I went back to the Windows 10 version and I changed the font to something radically different to what i really wanted and it did change a lot of the document with that style but not all of it. I think i missed it before because the paragraph that i had on the screen didn;t change but when i changed it to a weird font it scrolled the text up the screen a few lines so i could the text below it and see a change. So i changed the font back to something sensible and it worked but it did not change the font size at all, it was stuck at 14pt even though i changed it to 12pt.
I've discovered that if i change the font/size in "default style", it affects other parts of the document that has "text body" style applied.
Its the same on version 6 on linux.

Regards,
Ricardo

>
> regards
>
> Ian
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#5

Hi.
If you select all text (the whole document) and menu Format>Clear direct formatting (Ctl M), lots may change visually, does the document then behave as you might expect styles to behave. I do this as a matter of course to get MS docs into odts that I can style properly.
steve

#6

Ian,

I don't know your level of experience with styles, so forgive me if I
tell you something you already know.

I use the "Default Style" simply as a starting point for all my other
styles. I rarely actually apply the "Default Style" to a given paragraph.

LO's styles are hierarchical in nature, so that subordinate styles will
share certain formatting characteristics of the parent style.

Rather than use LO's built-in styles, I tend to create my own, so my
style hierarchy looks something like this:

Default Style
    BodySingle (just like Default, but with a 1 pica empty space above
the paragraph)
        BodySingleIndent (just like BodySingle, but with no empty space
above the paragraph, and the first line indented 2 picas)
        BodyDouble (just like BodySingle, but with double spacing, and
an indented first line)
    Title (Usually a different font style and size and centered with
spacing above and below the paragraph)

Each subordinate style will inherit most formatting characteristics from
the parent style, but then change one or two particular attributes. For
example, BodyDouble will inherit its font (style and size) and margins
from BodySingle, which, in turn, inherits those attributes from Default
Style. If I change the font style or size in Default Style, then that
change will apply to BodySingle, BodySingleIndent, and BodyDouble. It
will not, however, affect my Title style as I control the font at that
level.

Likewise, BodyDouble has a unique formatting attribute. It is double
spaced. So, if I change the line spacing in Default Style (say from
single to 1.5 lines or to a proportional line spacing) that change
*will* carry forward to BodySingle and BodySingleIndent (both of which
share the line spacing of Default Style), but it will *not* affect the
line spacing of BodyDouble, which will remain double spaced, because I
set the line spacing for that style within BodyDouble itself.

The key is to know which attributes are dictated by any given paragraph
style and to make changes at the proper style within the hierarchy that
it affects all of the paragraphs you want changed, and only those
paragraphs.

When making formatting changes to styles make sure you do it properly.
Do not just put your cursor in a given paragraph and start changing
formatting from the toolbar or the "properties" panel in the sidebar.
That will result in "direct formatting," which will not change the
style. Instead, make sure you right-click on the particular style you
want to change in the style list (sidebar), and select "Modify." Any
changes you make should affect that style and any subordinate styles
that share the same attribute that is being changed.

If it doesn't, then that most likely means you have direct formatting
peppered in along with style-based formatting. If that is the case, then
I would follow Steve's advice and select all of the text (Ctrl-A) and
clear direct formatting (Ctrl-M). At that point, you should have all of
your formatting controlled at the style level.

I hope all this makes sense. It's easier to do than to explain.

Virgil

#7

Also to add to Virgil's explanation is what happens when copy/pasting text with the same style name or a new style name.

If you copy text from a document with style named "Default Style" into your working document, the text will inherit the attributes of the settings for Default Style in your working document. This can sometimes cause unexpected outcomes. If you want to preserve the attributes of the copied text, give the copied text a unique style name before copying it.

When you copy text from another document with a style that you don't have in your working document, that new style will be added to your working document. If you don't want to accumulate a whole bunch of new styles with lots of copy/paste;
set the style of the text you want to copy to a style you already have in your working document before copy or,
paste as unformatted text and the pasted text will inherit the style of the text at the insertion point.

Steve

#8

Hi.
If you select all text (the whole document) and menu Format>Clear direct
formatting (Ctl M), lots may change visually, does the document then
behave as you might expect styles to behave. I do this as a matter of
course to get MS docs into odts that I can style properly.
steve

THanks Steve, I'll try that. I didn't get the difference between styles and direct formatting but now i do.

#9

Ian,

I don't know your level of experience with styles, so forgive me if I
tell you something you already know.

Thanks Virgil, more information is always a big help. My biggest bit of me being clueless was the not knowing that direct formatting was overriding the style because if I highlighted a paragraph and it had the same style/font/size setting, it looked like a style and i couldn't work out why it wouldn't change when i change the style setting.

I use the "Default Style" simply as a starting point for all my other
styles. I rarely actually apply the "Default Style" to a given paragraph.

LO's styles are hierarchical in nature, so that subordinate styles will
share certain formatting characteristics of the parent style.

I think i need to get a graphical representation printed out and stuck about my monitor.

Rather than use LO's built-in styles, I tend to create my own, so my
style hierarchy looks something like this:

I like to stick to the standard one but change the font etc i don;t do enough writing to justify creating a new set for myself.

Default Style
     BodySingle (just like Default, but with a 1 pica empty space above
the paragraph)
         BodySingleIndent (just like BodySingle, but with no empty space
above the paragraph, and the first line indented 2 picas)
         BodyDouble (just like BodySingle, but with double spacing, and
an indented first line)
     Title (Usually a different font style and size and centered with
spacing above and below the paragraph)

Each subordinate style will inherit most formatting characteristics from
the parent style, but then change one or two particular attributes. For
example, BodyDouble will inherit its font (style and size) and margins
from BodySingle, which, in turn, inherits those attributes from Default
Style. If I change the font style or size in Default Style, then that
change will apply to BodySingle, BodySingleIndent, and BodyDouble. It
will not, however, affect my Title style as I control the font at that
level.

Likewise, BodyDouble has a unique formatting attribute. It is double
spaced. So, if I change the line spacing in Default Style (say from
single to 1.5 lines or to a proportional line spacing) that change
*will* carry forward to BodySingle and BodySingleIndent (both of which
share the line spacing of Default Style), but it will *not* affect the
line spacing of BodyDouble, which will remain double spaced, because I
set the line spacing for that style within BodyDouble itself.

The key is to know which attributes are dictated by any given paragraph
style and to make changes at the proper style within the hierarchy that
it affects all of the paragraphs you want changed, and only those
paragraphs.

When making formatting changes to styles make sure you do it properly.
Do not just put your cursor in a given paragraph and start changing
formatting from the toolbar or the "properties" panel in the sidebar.
That will result in "direct formatting," which will not change the
style. Instead, make sure you right-click on the particular style you
want to change in the style list (sidebar), and select "Modify." Any
changes you make should affect that style and any subordinate styles
that share the same attribute that is being changed.

I think this is where i went wrong. Is there an obvious indicator that shows its direct formatting as opposed to a style? It would be handy when picking up someone else's document (which is what happened here)

If it doesn't, then that most likely means you have direct formatting
peppered in along with style-based formatting. If that is the case, then
I would follow Steve's advice and select all of the text (Ctrl-A) and
clear direct formatting (Ctrl-M). At that point, you should have all of
your formatting controlled at the style level.

Yes, I'm going to do that now i know it exists.

I hope all this makes sense. It's easier to do than to explain.

Great explanation, thanks a lot for your time.

Virgil

regards

Ian

#10

Also to add to Virgil's explanation is what happens when copy/pasting
text with the same style name or a new style name.

If you copy text from a document with style named "Default Style" into
your working document, the text will inherit the attributes of the
settings for Default Style in your working document. This can sometimes
cause unexpected outcomes. If you want to preserve the attributes of the
copied text, give the copied text a unique style name before copying it.

When you copy text from another document with a style that you don't
have in your working document, that new style will be added to your
working document. If you don't want to accumulate a whole bunch of new
styles with lots of copy/paste;
set the style of the text you want to copy to a style you already have
in your working document before copy or,
paste as unformatted text and the pasted text will inherit the style of
the text at the insertion point.

Steve

Thanks for your time and explanations, its been helpful.

regards

Ian

#11

I'm not sure that there is. In my career as a lawyer (I'm now retired),
I often had to share documents with other people. We had contracts going
back and forth with each side adding and subtracting edits. By the end,
it was a formatting nightmare with styles and direct formatting all
clashing with one another. Sometimes the document would get so corrupted
it would crash the word processor.

Usually, once the substance was completed, as a last step in the
process, I would reformat the entire document (because I'm obsessive
about these things, and I really enjoy doing it). I would start by
stripping all the direct formatting (Ctrl-A, Ctrl-M), and then I would
go through and apply all of my own paragraph styles. Nobody ever
complained because the finished product usually looked pretty good and
was readable.

It doesn't take as much time as you might think. After stripping the
formatting, I would then press Ctrl-A again to select the entire
document, and then apply the most predominant style (typically my
BodySingleIndent). I would then go through the document and apply
special styles to the appropriate paragraphs, such as a Heading1 or
Heading2 for headings and subheadings.

After I retired, I briefly taught a Law Office Technology course at the
college level. For an exercise, I would give my students a plain text
file and then tell them to format it to make it look like a given
finished product, that I would give them in hard copy form. After they
would spend twenty minutes wrestling with direct formatting, I would
then demonstrate how do do it in about 45 seconds using styles.

In my current teaching position, I have given my students a book report
for an old book that is now in the public domain. To keep them from
having to buy the book, I downloaded the pure text file of the book,
inserted it into LO and reformatted it using my styles. I pressed Ctrl-A
and applied BodySingleIndent to the whole text, and then went back and
applied a style called Heading1 for each chapter title. By using
Heading1 for the chapter titles, I was then able to automatically
generate a table of contents, and then I created a title page with some
other special paragraph styles. The whole process for a 188 page
(letter-sized) novel took me no more than 15 minutes, and that was only
because I had to examine each page to find my chapter titles or other
paragraphs that needed special styling (such as a block quote, etc.).

Learning Styles is definitely worth the investment in time.

Virgil

#12

Thanks for that advice, i'll definitely put my head down and learn more about styles especially now i know about Ctrl-M etc.

all the best

Ian

#13

Hi Ian,

I don't know if it has already been mentioned, but if you want to get to
grips with styles and templates I recommend you download and read a copy
of Bruce Byfield's book "Designing with LibreOffice"
http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/. Don't be mislead by the title, IMO
it is one of the best sources of advice about using LibreOffice styles.
Another useful resource is the recently published LibreOffice 5.4 Writer
Guide
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Writer_Guide
which includes some very good chapters on styles and templates.

Hope this helps.

Dave

#14

> Thanks for that advice, i'll definitely put my head down and learn more about styles especially now i know about Ctrl-M etc.
>
> all the best
>
> Ian

Hi Ian,

I don't know if it has already been mentioned, but if you want to get to
grips with styles and templates I recommend you download and read a copy
of Bruce Byfield's book "Designing with LibreOffice"
http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/. Don't be mislead by the title, IMO
it is one of the best sources of advice about using LibreOffice styles.
Another useful resource is the recently published LibreOffice 5.4 Writer
Guide
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Writer_Guide
which includes some very good chapters on styles and templates.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Cheers Dave, i shall look it up.