Subject lines - another gripe...

users
#1

I use Pegasus Mail and view the posts threaded, which by and large
works excellently. No need to quote lots in mails as it is very easy to
locate the original mails.

But Pegasus Mail truncates subject lines, as displayed in folder views,
to 35 characters, something that will be changed in a later version of
Pegasus but not for a while yet. Each email on this list is prefixed
with [libreoffice-users] together with various [re:], [fwd:] and other
things. Net result is that there are very few characters left out of
the 35 to accurately thread on, and I get all sorts of totally
different things threaded together.

If the list admin changed this to something like [lo-users] or even
[lou] it would make threading far more reliable.

Moan over...

Dave

http://www.davesergeant.com

#2

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
I would really like [LO-Users] because it's more descriptive but the main thing is getting it shorter.  I tried asking in the steering-discuss list ages ago but the feeling was that it was important to avoid shortening the name because we really needed to get the full name out there as much as possible.  That might be less of a worry now.  Perhaps you could join the Web-designer's Mailing List or the steering-discuss list to try to push the idea forwards?
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#3

I use Pegasus Mail and view the posts threaded, which by and large
works excellently. No need to quote lots in mails as it is very easy to
locate the original mails.

But Pegasus Mail truncates subject lines, as displayed in folder views,
to 35 characters, something that will be changed in a later version of
Pegasus but not for a while yet. Each email on this list is prefixed
with [libreoffice-users] together with various [re:], [fwd:] and other
things. Net result is that there are very few characters left out of
the 35 to accurately thread on, and I get all sorts of totally
different things threaded together.

Wait, how is pegasus doing threading? Threading should not need the
subject for anything, and just rely on the References and In-reply-to
headers.

Check if there's somehow a way to enable that kind of threading in your
client (although one wonders why would such option be disabled...).

If the list admin changed this to something like [lo-users] or even
[lou] it would make threading far more reliable.

I'd like libo-users, but like Tom said, the idea was to always use the
complete, full name, in order to avoid promoting several, different
names and nicknames.

But still, this is something kind of internal, and shortening it would
at least make more room in some screens for the actual message subject.

#4

It strikes me, the problem isn't LibreOffice, it's Pegasus Mail. :slight_smile: Personally, I don't think it's LibreOffice's responsibility to address the shortcomings and limitations of other software products.

Another point, if you shorten the name and start using acronyms, that could cause problems for new users finding it difficult to figure out what [lou] means. :slight_smile:

#5

Hi :slight_smile:
Again, not just 1 email client.  It affects mine too and probably countless others too.  I think being incompatible or awkward with other systems is very arrogant.  We don't need to restrict people and tell them what they can and can't use.  That sort of behaviour is exactly why i moved away from MicroSquish stuff.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#6

Hello Ken,

Personally, I don't think it's LibreOffice's responsibility to address
the shortcomings and limitations of other software products.

They already do, by prep-ending the subject with [libreoffice-users].

#7

Hello Dave,

If the list admin changed this to something like [lo-users] or even
[lou] it would make threading far more reliable.

There's no need for _anything_ to be prepended to the subject header to
assist in identifying list mail. There are plenty of other headers to
filter on.

The following is not aimed at you Dave, it's just a general observation.

Your MUA can't handle that? Simple answer; Use one that can.

#8

Yes, there are two ways of threading. Pegasus chooses to do it purely
from the subject line, and is unlikely to change. Pegasus is an
excellent email program (would recommend it to those looking at an
alternative to Outlook, but it doesn't do scheduling/calendar) but is a
mature product. David Harris the writer is unlikely to do changes just
to keep libreoffice users happy... (although it is rumoured that the 35
character clipping will go when v5 is released, probably still a year
away).

Thanks for the suggestions Tom, I will persue the steering discuss
list.

(whoops, seem to have bottom posted...)

Dave

http://www.davesergeant.com

#9

Ummm...

Any email client that displays threads based on SUBJECT is, by definition, broken.

It should be using the message-id headers in the email headers.

#10

Yes, there are two ways of threading.

No, there isn't, there is only one (standardized) way.

Pegasus chooses to do it purely from the subject line, and is
unlikely to change.

Then it will continue to be a seriously BROKEN mail client when it comes to threaded view.

Pegasus is an excellent email program (would recommend it to those
looking at an alternative to Outlook, but it doesn't do
scheduling/calendar)

Lol - then it isn't even a *potential* alternative... at least Thunderbird has a half decent calendar (Lightning) and Task Manager - not as polished or integrated as Outlook, for sure, but it works.

but is a mature product. David Harris the writer is unlikely to do
changes just to keep libreoffice users happy.

Then Pegasus is doomed to remain a niche product that few people even know of, much less use.

#11

We aren't telling people what they can and can't use. We are telling people what the finished product needs to look like. How they get there is up to them. :slight_smile:

It's like putting a contract out on the street. You don't (usually) tell the contractor what tools he has to use, you simply tell them what you want the final piece to look like. If the tool the contractor has can't do the job, you don't change the product to accommodate the contractor's tools, the contractor changes his tools to accomplish the job.

#12

Wait, how is pegasus doing threading? Threading should not need the
subject for anything, and just rely on the References and In-reply-to
headers.

Check if there's somehow a way to enable that kind of threading in your
client (although one wonders why would such option be disabled...).

Yes, there are two ways of threading. Pegasus chooses to do it purely
from the subject line, and is unlikely to change.

There may be other ways clients do threading, but the only way actually
supported by e-mail standards and, thus, expected to be supported in all
compliant clients, is the one based on headers.

(See section 3.6.4 of IETF RFC 5322, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322)

Threading by subject is just a quick and dirty workaround, even if
Pegasus is updated to use the whole subject.

It will, e.g., fail if someone uses an already used subject, while the
standard way is based on message-id, that usually succeeds in being
unique.

Also, what if someone changes the subject in a thread? (happens
sometimes, when, hmm, the subject being discussed changes) Will it be
considered a different thread?

Pegasus is an
excellent email program (would recommend it to those looking at an
alternative to Outlook, but it doesn't do scheduling/calendar) but is a

If it is really an alternative to Outlook, I'd drop it immediately,
because that would mean Pegasus handles e-mail as badly as Outlook does.

mature product. David Harris the writer is unlikely to do changes just
to keep libreoffice users happy... (although it is rumoured that the 35
character clipping will go when v5 is released, probably still a year
away).

It is not about making libreoffice users happy, it's about making e-mail
users happy. References and In-Reply-To are extremely useful message
headers, and are /the right way/ to do threading.

If your client can't handle these and you require threading, then I
advise you to look for another client that can handle this.

But I'd try suggesting this to the author of pegasus. I tried to find
something about changes to the threading system in pegasus, but found
nothing so far.

(whoops, seem to have bottom posted...)

Don't worry. No kittens were harmed. Top-posters, OTOH, have PeTA on
their trail.

#13

Messages are not threaded on subject. For a test reply to a message in a
thread and change the subject line. It should still appear in the
thread. You will occasionally see someone admonished on a list for
replying to a threaded message, changing the subject line, and writing
about an unrelated subject.

#14

Robert, the issue is that OP's mail client actually does threading based
on subject, instead of relying on threading information.

So if he did that, he would actually see two different threads.

(So, indeed, normal threading does not work this way, but Pegasus'
"threading" does.)

#15

Hello Dave Sergeant,

I am filtering this subject crap with a procmail recipe of

    :0fw
    * ^Subject:.*\[libreoffice-users\]
    >sed -e 's|\[libreoffice\-users\] ||'

:stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
    Michelle Konzack

#16

Many thanks! I never considered the possibility of getting rid of the
list "tag" at MDA level. Now I'm thinking about... shrinking the subject
of posts from *all* lists I'm subscribed to!

Two points, though:

- I guess this fails with encoded subjects (non-ASCII), but that's an
  issue with procmail itself that I have yet to solve.

- How will the list software react to the missing tag? I guess it just
  adds another one?

#17

So I gathered from reading subsequent posts. Hadn't heard of it before.
What a great reason not to use Pegasus.

#18

Hello Nuno J. Silva,

Am 2011-09-08 23:16:42, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:

- I guess this fails with encoded subjects (non-ASCII), but that's an
  issue with procmail itself that I have yet to solve.

Mostly ist is enough, ich you take the first 10-15 characters of the
encoded string :wink:

- How will the list software react to the missing tag? I guess it just
  adds another one?

Most list add no [TAG], ich the Subject has a Re: in the front...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
    Michelle Konzack