The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog

l10n
#1

Hello all,

Does anyone know in which sense is the word "common" used in the following string?
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/translate/libo_ui-master/svxmessages/en/?checksum=904e3236f1d69307

In other words, is the meaning "translate mutually shared terms", "translate frequently occurring terms", or something else entirely?

As you can see, there are many possible meanings: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/common

Regards,
Tuomas Hietala

#2

Hi Tuomas,

Hello all,

Does anyone know in which sense is the word "common" used in the
following string?
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/translate/libo_ui-master/svxmessages/en/?checksum=904e3236f1d69307

In other words, is the meaning "translate mutually shared terms",
"translate frequently occurring terms", or something else entirely?

if you look at the link provided:
https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/master/svx/uiconfig/ui/chineseconversiondialog.ui#180

below, there is the extended tip:
<property name="AtkObject::accessible-description" translatable="yes"
context="chineseconversiondialog|extended_tip|commonterms">Converts
words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms.
After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by
character.</property>
So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list.
But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be
wrong :slight_smile:
Cheers
Sophie

#3

Hello Sophie,

sophi kirjoitti 25.8.2021 18:56:

below, there is the extended tip:
<property name="AtkObject::accessible-description" translatable="yes"
context="chineseconversiondialog|extended_tip|commonterms">Converts
words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms.
After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by
character.</property>
So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list.
But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be
wrong :slight_smile:

That would be my guess too, but in at least Finnish and Swedish it's currently translated the other way, i.e. "mutually shared". Are those translations based on guessing or knowledge? I have no idea.

Tuomas

#4

Hi,

Tuomas Hietala (<tuomas.hietala@iki.fi>) kirjutas 25.08.2021 kell 19:10:

Hello Sophie,

sophi kirjoitti 25.8.2021 18:56:
> below, there is the extended tip:
> <property name="AtkObject::accessible-description" translatable="yes"
> context="chineseconversiondialog|extended_tip|commonterms">Converts
> words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms.
> After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by
> character.</property>
> So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list.
> But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be
> wrong :slight_smile:

That would be my guess too, but in at least Finnish and Swedish it's
currently translated the other way, i.e. "mutually shared". Are those
translations based on guessing or knowledge? I have no idea.

Duplicating my comment from Weblate here as well:
I think it has to be "common" as in "frequent, occurring often" – the other
meaning would make little sense in this context: if a term is common (as in
"shared") between Traditional and Simplified script, then what is there to
convert? Actual Chinese speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong :slight_smile:

Anyway, thanks for raising this – if my reasoning is correct, then it means
the current translation in my language has been wrong for
gods-know-how-many years.

Best,
Mihkel
Estonian translator

#5

As explained in the Help page:

*"Translate common terms*
Converts words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms. After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by character."

The "Common Terms" list can be found on the UI if you open "Tools > Language > Chinese Conversion" where there is a "Edit Terms" button. Clicking on the button will open an "Edit Dictionary" dialog where you can define your Common Terms.

For instance, if I've defined the following in the Common Terms list:
中国 --> 美国
(meaning: China --> United States)

Then if I type (or copy paste) the word 中国 into Writer and check the "Translate common terms" opinion in the Chinese Conversion dialog, the conversion result would be "美国".

That is to say, the "Common Terms" means the List of Common Terms dictionary you have defined by yourself (which is blank by default). In other words, it has nothing to do with "shared".

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Kevin Suo

#6

Mihkel Tõnnov <mihhkel@gmail.com>於 2021年8月27日 週五，上午5:26寫道：

Hi,

Tuomas Hietala (<tuomas.hietala@iki.fi>) kirjutas 25.08.2021 kell 19:10:

> Hello Sophie,
>
> sophi kirjoitti 25.8.2021 18:56:
> > below, there is the extended tip:
> > <property name="AtkObject::accessible-description" translatable="yes"
> > context="chineseconversiondialog|extended_tip|commonterms">Converts
> > words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms.
> > After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by
> > character.</property>
> > So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list.
> > But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be
> > wrong :slight_smile:
>
> That would be my guess too, but in at least Finnish and Swedish it's
> currently translated the other way, i.e. "mutually shared". Are those
> translations based on guessing or knowledge? I have no idea.
>

Duplicating my comment from Weblate here as well:
I think it has to be "common" as in "frequent, occurring often" – the other
meaning would make little sense in this context: if a term is common (as in
"shared") between Traditional and Simplified script, then what is there to
convert? Actual Chinese speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong :slight_smile:

Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion.

Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth
“土” ,Water “水” ,etc.

However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China
and Taiwan.
For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in
traditional Chinese.

#7

Kevin Suo <suokunlong@126.com> 於 2021年8月27日 週五 上午8:24寫道：

As explained in the Help page:

*"Translate common terms*
Converts words with two or more characters that are in the list of
common terms. After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted
character by character."

The "Common Terms" list can be found on the UI if you open "Tools >
Language > Chinese Conversion" where there is a "Edit Terms" button.
Clicking on the button will open an "Edit Dictionary" dialog where you
can define your Common Terms.

For instance, if I've defined the following in the Common Terms list:
中国 --> 美国
(meaning: China --> United States)

Then if I type (or copy paste) the word 中国 into Writer and check the
"Translate common terms" opinion in the Chinese Conversion dialog, the
conversion result would be "美国".

That is to say, the "Common Terms" means the List of Common Terms
dictionary you have defined by yourself (which is blank by default). In
other words, it has nothing to do with "shared".

Kevin Suo is also right about this.

The "common terms" here means the terms dictionary conversion between
simplified and traditional Chinese.
For example. You can set Term as "土豆 " and Mapping as "馬鈴薯" for referring
to potatoes.

#8

Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion.

Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth
“土” ,Water “水” ,etc.

However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China
and Taiwan.
For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in
traditional Chinese.

To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually
saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and
traditional Chinese."

#9

Thanks, this is a very good explanation.

Tuomas

Kevin Suo kirjoitti 27.8.2021 3:22:

#10

Cheng-Chia Tseng (<pswo10680@gmail.com>) kirjutas 27.08.2021 kell 02:51:

Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion.

Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth
“土” ,Water “水” ,etc.

However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China
and Taiwan.
For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in
traditional Chinese.

To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually
saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and
traditional Chinese."

Thanks for the explanation.

I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help:
"Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and
simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID ujmVB
in current master)
However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing?

Thanks,
Mihkel

#11

Mihkel Tõnnov <mihhkel@gmail.com>於 2021年8月30日 週一，上午2:47寫道：

Cheng-Chia Tseng (<pswo10680@gmail.com>) kirjutas 27.08.2021 kell 02:51:

Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion.

Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth
“土” ,Water “水” ,etc.

However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China
and Taiwan.
For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in
traditional Chinese.

To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually
saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and
traditional Chinese."

Thanks for the explanation.

I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help:
"Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and
simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID ujmVB
in current master)
However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing?

It’s like describing the same thing with different aspects. Taken the
elephants as an example , we can name them with some very special features,
like “four pillars,” “two sharp horns,” “long nose,” etc.

As to the potato here, “土豆” which used in simplified Chinese means “earth
bean,” and “馬鈴薯” in traditional Chinese means “horse bell yam” literally.

This kind of naming variants also exist within different regions of Chinese
speaking people besides the writing system.

Thanks,
Mihkel

--

Cheers,
by Cheng-Chia Tseng

#12

------------------ Original ------------------
Send time: Monday, Aug 30, 2021 2:46 AM

To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually
saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and
traditional Chinese."

Thanks for the explanation.

I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help:
"Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and
simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID ujmVB
in current master)
However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing?

In addition to Cheng-Chia Tseng's explanation, I'll offer two analogies with
other languages. Think "apartment vs. flat" and "cookie vs. biscuit" in American
English and British English, or east European languages that can be either written
in Latin script or Cyrillic script (I remember Serbian is like this?).

The difference between simplified and traditional Chinese is somewhere in
between the two scenarios above. As for the Chinese conversion feature in
LibreOffice, the cases covered by this "common terms" list are more like
"apartment vs. flat", as the cases like "Latin vs. Cyrillic" are more easily done
by rule-based replacement in large scale, and don't need this special "common
terms" list.

Hope this helps,
Ming

#13

Ming H. (<2097632994@qq.com>) kirjutas 30.08.2021 kell 05:17:

------------------ Original ------------------
From: "Mihkel Tõnnov" <mihhkel@gmail.com>;
Send time: Monday, Aug 30, 2021 2:46 AM
>
>> To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually
>> saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and
>> traditional Chinese."
>>
> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help:
> "Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and
> simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID
ujmVB
> in current master)
> However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing?

In addition to Cheng-Chia Tseng's explanation, I'll offer two analogies
with
other languages. Think "apartment vs. flat" and "cookie vs. biscuit" in
American
English and British English, or east European languages that can be either
written
in Latin script or Cyrillic script (I remember Serbian is like this?).

The difference between simplified and traditional Chinese is somewhere in
between the two scenarios above. As for the Chinese conversion feature in
LibreOffice, the cases covered by this "common terms" list are more like
"apartment vs. flat", as the cases like "Latin vs. Cyrillic" are more
easily done
by rule-based replacement in large scale, and don't need this special
"common
terms" list.

Thank you all for your explanations. I played around with the feature and
understand now what it does – and looking back at all your examples,
they make perfect sense now as well.

However, by now I'm also quite sure that the English term for this is
rather wrong (and as a consequence, so are many/most of the translations):
the core of the meaning is not the converted terms being "common" (either
as "frequent" or "shared"), but instead them consisting of more than one
character, although apparently single-character substitutions can be
defined as well (which contradicts what Help says [1]). As an example that
might be easier for us non-Chinese speakers to wrap our heads around: if we
continue the BrE vs. AmE analogy of "flat vs. apartment", one could add an
entry pair of "flatmate – roommate" in order to not get "flatmate" turned
into "apartmentmate" by the program's own logic...

Could we consider renaming this term to "Compound words" in LibO?

[1]
https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/01/06010600.html?&DbPAR=SHARED&System=UNIX

Best regards,
Mihkel
Estonian translator