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Hi 
I think it depends on how you "educate" new users. If we continue to be rude &
demand that new new users obey 1 certain way of doing things before we even
consider helping them then i think that is unlikely to enamour people. Perhaps
when people ask questions we could just start with the RTFM answer that got
linux such a wonderful reputation. At least then they would have something to
work with.
Regards from
Tom
We dont need to be rude & demanding to new users, But some existing
users should actually start reading what other post here, and THINK
about what they are saying.
Some people may think "I dont care what others say".... But that wil not
improve general quality, and readability here.
For most people it should not be a problem to obey certain simple
'rules' (guidelines) here. And i know i am not making these guidelines,
but i'm only asking some attention for it in this thread.
Tom Davies wrote (16-02-11 09:38)
I think it depends on how you "educate" new users.
Indeed. Showing them how handy correct quoting and replying is.
Nearly all people can understand that.
Cor
Hi
Sadly we have to deal with the world as it is rather than the way we would like
it to be. Far more people use the wonderful MicroSoft products such as Outlook
than use all the alternatives added together.
Please can we try to be less unfriendly to people that are new in here? Top
posters (first timers asking questions) need to be responded to at the top of
the thread. Otherwise they might assume there was no answer in the reply. Part
of that response can be to ask them to bottom-post and check the ends of posts
but there needs to be something that is directly useful to them in that
response. At the moment we often have responses that only appears to criticise
the person and leaves nothing to help them. That is a waste of their time which
is not ideal if we are trying to attract people.
Most people will only have time to have a quick glance at an email, to triage,
before deciding whether to deal with it now or leave it to later (often =
delete). The first thing that most people see is the top of the email and
almost all our responses fall into the "leave to later or delete straight-away"
category. If we want people to see us as unhelpful and unfriendly then
bottom-posting is fine.
We have to be able to deal with people in the manner they are accustomed to. At
the moment we behave like stereotypical English tourists shouting loudly at
people in MicroSoft-land and then shouting louder if they don't understand.
Yes, they don't do thing 'our way'. Obviously 'our way' is the only 'right way'
but that doesn't necessarily mean we don't want to help them. Or does it?
Regards from
Tom
I could not agree more. I have been using OOo and Thunderbird for several years now and try to get the people I work around to use free rather than MS software. It is a really hard uphill struggle.
But I would say that I always have my comments at the top of e-mails as that is the way I prefer to set up Thunderbird. Some people obviously prefer to have comments at the bottom, good on them, it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things.
Steve
This e-mail together with any attachments, is confidential. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail or telephone. Please then delete it from your computer without making any copies or disclosing it to any other person. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
I could not agree more. I have been using OOo and Thunderbird for
several years now and try to get the people I work around to use free
rather than MS software. It is a really hard uphill struggle.
But I would say that I always have my comments at the top of e-mails
as that is the way I prefer to set up Thunderbird. Some people
obviously prefer to have comments at the bottom, good on them, it
would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things.
This text is off-topic.... 
Steve
This e-mail together with any attachments, is confidential. It may be
read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. If you have
received it in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail
or telephone. Please then delete it from your computer without making
any copies or disclosing it to any other person. Any unauthorized
copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is
strictly forbidden.
The text of this mail is also archived 'for ever', therefore it is of no
use to put a disclaimer like this under this message.
Quoot from: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
"Please remember: everything you post to our public mailing lists,
including your e-mail address and any other personal information
contained in your message, will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted. So, please do post wisely"
Is it off-topic because it disagrees with your view point on this topic?
W dniu 11-02-16 14:51, TVCSF Chair pisze:
Some people obviously prefer to have comments at the bottom, good on them, it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things.
But everyone read texts from top to bottom. From primary school to last days. Specjally with latin letters, but I am sure with oriental letters too.
Get any book, paper, banner, message, etc, whatever-you-want - always from top to bottom. Even comix. Very borring?
Give me the only one sample, where read is jumping down-up-down-up-down-... from one part of text to other!
Hello Dave,
Sadly we have to deal with the world as it is rather than the way we would like
it to be.
Sure. Does this mean we won't try to educate them?
Far more people use the wonderful MicroSoft products such as Outlook
than use all the alternatives added together.
Indeed.
Please can we try to be less unfriendly to people that are new in here?
Am I? Sorry if my message seemed like that, because it was not the intend.
Top
posters (first timers asking questions) need to be responded to at the top of
the thread. Otherwise they might assume there was no answer in the reply.
If you read this very message, you can see that I've edited it in many pieces that are very likely to be noticed. I guess 
So, top- or bottom-posting is just a part of the "mail-user-education": editing the original message to get to the point is also very important. The sender must think he has to be read, and understood (otherwise what's the point at posting at all?). So eliminating the useless parts -- which are available upper in the thread anyway -- is a requirement.
The first thing that most people see is the top of the email and
almost all our responses fall into the "leave to later or delete straight-away"
category.
This is what message editing is all about.
Yes, they don't do thing 'our way'. Obviously 'our way' is the only 'right way'
but that doesn't necessarily mean we don't want to help them. Or does it?
No, of course. This is my point: bottom-posting + editing and, from time to time explaining. I don't think I ever ignored any message just because it was top-answered.
Cheers,
Hi
No, i wasn't saying that anyone was deliberately unfriendly but i think we need
to have better ways of dealing with top-posters because we often give an
appearance of rudeness.
People that do top-post are unlikely to be aware that there is another way.
Everyone they communicate with and everyone those people communicate with all
top-post as Jean-Francois just agreed. If they get an apparently empty email
then they might well assume that it was a mistake. Mistakes happen. When
triaging a stack of emails that becomes a "delete now or deal with later". Why
spend time looking for something that 'never happens'? Why scroll to the bottom
of a thread when in all their experience that is only ancient history? On the
other hand people that bottom post are usually aware that there is an
alternative.
Any editing can change the meaning or context of a previous posting, sometimes
even reversing the meaning. Keeping old posts is great for checking context if
something seems odd about the latest post or if the thread is unfamiliar somehow
= it is not meant to be read through each time but it is helpful if it is easily
accessible.
Steve had a good point. Some people use one method and other people use a
different one. There is surely enough room in this world for all. We need to
be good at dealing with top-posters but what exactly does that mean?
Regards from
Tom
You don't have to alienate them... just some gentle prodding in the
beginning is enough for most people, explaining that it is the style of
the LibO lists to bottom/in-line post, with a link to the 'Learn2Quote'
page posted earlier...
What really irks me are the jerks who simply refuse to abide by a lists
general guidelines... and they can get away with it here because no one
will ban them for refusing to comply.
Exactly - but more importantly, veteran users (like Tom) should make a
minimal effort to abide by the lists general guidelines - in this case,
STOP freaking top-posting Tom! - otherwise, newbies will quickly see
that they can also just give the finger to the rest of us.
Seriously Tom - that is the way I take it when you simply refuse to
abode by the guidelines - you are telling the rest of us to go F---
ourselves...
I guess that is why I plonked you a long time ago (I'm only seeing your
posts now because others I *haven't* plonked are replying to you)...
Don't take this personally, but you aren't helping at all by
top-posting everything all the time.
If we want to encourage others to bottom-post, one way to do so is to
bottom-post. That's a big "if."
A simple note at the top of a response to inveterate top-posters would
suffice, combined with later notes not to top-post and a handy
reference to a list etiquette guide (when there is one) ought to be
enough:
"Please see below for response/answer(s)."
Proper quoting also helps - when a post begins with a clear and
obvious quote of someone else's post, it's a fair stretch *not* to
figure out that there's something lower down that might be of
interest.
I have not seen a posting guide for this list that specifies
bottom-posting as the preferred method, as opposed, say, to the Ubuntu
users (and most technical discussion lists for that matter) where
bottom-posting is explicitly called for in the group guide.
But what you seem to be missing is that different email LISTS have
different GUIDELINES... the guidelines for these lists is to bottom-post...
So, when you and others refuse to abide by the guidelines, you are
essentially telling everyone that you are better than them, and/or are
just too damn lazy to adjust your behavior - ie, 'When in Rome...'
Oh, and as to your 'disclaimer' - be advised that I have forwarded your
email on to a few of the gossips I know who are now forwarding on to
many others and posting it on porn websites... feel free to sue me...
<snip>
more ....
does space work up to here?
Worked for me... but when there is nothing to scroll down to, the space
moves to the next message... so maybe the person it didn't work for
tried it on a message that didn't have anything to scroll down to?
...
Bottom posting (with appropriate snipping/intersperse etc) would be my
choice.
I doubt that there will be any general agreement until mailing list
guidelines are posted & available on both the list and the website. My
recommendation would be to use the Ubuntu page as a guideline template &
modified for LO/TDF:
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
[starting from 'Mailing list etiquette']
With proper guidelines in place, it is then easy (and polite) to point
new list subscribers to those guideline and ask that they abide by them.
If all else fails:
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html
[Netiquette Guidelines]
works for me.
Check this site: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
especially the part about curt answers.
I have often practiced exactly that sort of "discussion" - but usually
on the technical users' lists.
If we want people to use LibreOffice, it might be a good idea not to
push them away just because they're idiots - er, no, I mean "new to
this kind of discussion format."
Yeah, that's the ticket - this isn't Usenet, after all....
Aka 'in-line' posting...
See bottom for replies ...