Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

users
#1

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3

<quote>
2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?
</quote>

and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
<quote>
Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

    Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
</quote>

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
<quote>
Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:

....

    Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...
</quote>

and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
<quote>
Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
</quote>

Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
worth mentioning anyway.

Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
posting guidelines on the
<http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.

#2

...

Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.

Apologies for the last. I forgot that nntp followup doesn't work via
gmane.org. So I'll repost on the discuss list & will appreciate it if
folks on the 'users' list comment there rather than taking up added
space on this list.

Gary

#3

Reply below:

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3

<quote>
2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?
</quote>

and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
<quote>
Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

     Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
</quote>

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
<quote>
Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:

....

     Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...
</quote>

and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
<quote>
Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
</quote>

Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
worth mentioning anyway.

Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
posting guidelines on the
<http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.

Hi All,

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!!!!!! So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.

Don

#4

Sorry! I didn't see this until I sent the last e-mail.

#5

On 08/09/11 11:29, Don Myers wrote:Reply
      below:On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:For those that continue to insist on top
        posting on the LO lists: pleaseconsider bottom posting with interspersed replies.Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in
      the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of
      work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me
      at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood
      why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when
      Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!!!!!! So I have always
      changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe
      there are different customs in different countries.DonIt's not a point about national customs. It's about the way we read
    mailing lists.If you are in a one-to-one conversation then you will know the
    context of the conversation and more importantly you will remember
    what you said to that person last time.In that case top posting
    works often,although you may still have to re-quote parts of the
    previous conversation to make it clear what is being talked about or
    the points you are responding to.In a mailing list where there are multiple conversations frommultiple people all happening simultaneously, it is a lot easier for
    all concerned if replies are interspersed in the body of the
    previous email or at the bottom so that new readers can pick up the
    context of the conversation. Also for people who come across the
    archived version looking to solve a problem several months later, it
    is much easier if you can follow the logical flow by scrolling down
    through the various discussions.We've had this discussion multiple times on this and previously on
    the OO list.I'm with NoOp on this but I know that there are people who insist on
    their right to top post.--
God bless you

Keith Bates

4 Mooloobar St
Narrabri 2390

Ask Jesus into your life
He is The Way, The Truth and The Life

#6

Hi

Reply below:

> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
>
> I realiz(s)e that the existing:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> which includes this bit:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
>
> <quote>
> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
>
> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
>
> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
> article, if the context is not obvious.
>
> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
>
> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
> delete these parts.
>
> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
> achieve by such simple means?
> </quote>
>
> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
> desired guideline.
>
> Samples of similar on other lists:
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
> <quote>
> Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
>
> Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
> </quote>
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> <quote>
> Proper quoting:
>
> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
>
> ....
>
> Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
> ...
> </quote>
>
> and even:
> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
> <quote>
> Replying
> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
> response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
> question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
> talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
> possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
> remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
> </quote>
>
> Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
> transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
> worth mentioning anyway.
>
> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
> <http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
> posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.
>
> Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
> list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
> discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
> as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.
>
>
>
Hi All,

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the
US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work
e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the
bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why
Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came
out. It was backwards!!!!!! So I have always changed the default on
every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in
different countries.

Don

The real reason is on a list one may be joining the thread late and
needs to know what has been discussed. Often business emails are just
written conversations between people. Thus top posting works there very
well.

#7

Hi

...

Hi All,

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the
US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work
e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the
bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why
Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came
out. It was backwards!!!!!! So I have always changed the default on
every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in
different countries.

Don

The real reason is on a list one may be joining the thread late and
needs to know what has been discussed. Often business emails are just
written conversations between people. Thus top posting works there very
well.

Snipping is helpful also..
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.1
:slight_smile:

#8

Thank you!!!!!!

#9

The reply is always at the top.

When I top post, I am 100% guaranteed that the recipient will be utterly
clueless about what I am referring to, and what action, if any, I will
be taking.

every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.

Intermixed posting was the US standard. That changed when:
* AOL allowed its members on the Internet;
* Microsoft released its email client that made intermixed posting
virtually impossible for non-techies.

jonathon
- --
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.

If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.

                              DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.

#10

I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom.

It isn't about 'posting at the bottom' - it is about trimming your post
to only quote the relevant portion of the text you are responding to,
and placing each response (if you are responding to more than one point)
after each relevant quoted portion of text - just like this one is done...

I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a
lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply
to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top.

That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting
(and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging
users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond
intelligently).

I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the
bottom when Thunderbird came out.

Now you know.

It was backwards!!!!!!

No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook.

So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed
it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.

Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a
few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses.

#11

What the heck was that???

(top-posted because there is no way to make sense of the quoted text)

#12

Hi :slight_smile:
Top posting is fine. Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few
OpenSource mailing lists. If you need to communicate with anyone that works in
an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just
ignore your email and delete it without reading it.

A few old-timers here might have to accept that we are here to help open things
up for people not to bully, restrict and make unnecessary demands.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#13

Hi gary,

NoOp wrote (08-09-11 02:02)

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I think it is useful to have some clear examples (pictures from mails/ threads) that simply show how good mailing practices can be useful.
Of course, if you are constantly on the mail, giving all your attention to what goes on there, you can maybe follow the topics in the blind. Then it may not all be that relevant.
But for people that cannot read the posts all the time, clear quoting and replying below the relevant part, is helpful.
Still not something we want to try to force people to use IMO. But something to show as good possibility.

Cheers,

#14

For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain.
But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own.

#15

I second that request.
- top posting is painfull
- HTML formatted texts too

#16

Because people you talk with read bottum-up.
And it's not a country custom, just a matter of education and logic.

#17

Agreed.

#18

That's the point: people are lazy and dont wan to mess with trimming and formatting their answer. But they want the recipient to read carefully what they wrote.

Crazy.

#19

Top posting is fine.

Bottom posting is fine.

Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few
OpenSource mailing lists. If you need to communicate with anyone that works in
an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just
ignore your email and delete it without reading it.

What about trimming (summarize) the message you answer to?
I personnally bottom reply to my top-poster boss.
I'm waiting to snip him if he dares telling anything about that pratctice.

#20

Because your correspondants did not trim the message, as I just did for yours: I just select the line I want to answer and click on "reply".
It keeps (quotes) just the selected line.

Your MUA does not? Use a clever one.