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A true IT Professional respects rules/guidelines established by the support mediums they frequent - anything else is pure and simple arrogance and disrespect.
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:31:26 -0500, Tanstaafl
<tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] Top
posting:
I'm DONE with you Tom... you are now officially and forever PLONKED,
never to have one of your brain-dead, disrespectful emails to grace my
Inbox again.
That is exactly the way to deal with it. I make liberal use of kill
filters on top-posters and my reading experience here is fairly
pleasant as a result.
Hi 
So you seem to be saying a true IT Professional should
1. make sure guidelines make no sense and are the opposite to the way everyone else works
2. Ignore users requirements
3. Blame the user for not following "guidelines" as though they were rules.
Obviously although the word "guidelines" is used people must adhere to them as though they were strict "rules". The word "guidelines" is used in order to fool people into thinking they have a choice. In fact there are other rules that are not even written up in the guidelines specifically in order to make people unable to follow the hidden rules. In turn that means people will be routinely berated publicly for not following the rules.
So when people first arrive at the list in order to ask for help they are not allowed to actually ask for the help they need until the have read the unwritten rules and changed their systems in order to follow your rules. Then they can ask the question but if there is any slight variation, if they are unable to give you all the information you expect them to give, then again you will be there ready to berate and intimidate them.
Now maybe you don't realise what you are doing, maybe you enjoy intimidating people and making them feel they dare not ask any questions.
All that is exactly why i wanted to move away from Microsoft in the first place and i have never seen yoru intolerant attitude anywhere else in the entire rest of the OpenSource community. It only seems to be in LibreOffice where that attitude prevails and even then it's only the "Uses" list. The other lists are far more welcoming to newcomers. Which is odd really. It should surely be this list that is more welcoming to newcomers and their various different ways of working. Yes, we do need helpers but not ones that drive newcomers away and put people off continuing to use LibreOffice.
So, i think the guidelines should really be treated as being no more than guidelines, certainly not be treated as rules. Also i think the guidelines should be changed to conform with what newcomers are more familiar with. It should be easier for people with strong technical skills to adapt to the newcomers instead of expecting all newcomers to adapt to a weird way they have never seen before.
Regards from
Tom
Hi
Actually that is good news to for me. I don't like this tired old argument flaring up time and time again. It damages us as a community. I never start the argument and do not want it. If i am plonked/filtered-out by you then it reduces the chance of you starting the argument again.
Learning a new way is different from being bullied into it. People can and do learn.
'Regards' from
Tom
Hi
Ahah, that might explain why it's so rare to see either of you helping people on this list. I've never seen Caesar answer anything, not even to give someone a helpful nudge in the right direction. At least Tanstaafl has done some good in here even if its very rare.
'Regards' from
Tom
It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has suggested, consider the actual guidelines as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they were running a gulag....
Hail and farewell
One reason I am not more involved in this community is the incessant whining from the juveniles. Notice that I am top posting as suggested by the guidelines as my comment would not be really benefitted by a long scroll down a thread of shame, lol.... Chin up, Tom, and hope that some may find Apache a snugger fit 
I rarely take much notice of those focused on puffing themselves up; lack of O2 usually brings them to their senses.
Hi
The trick is to get involved with the other lists. There are many ways to contribute and many areas that would really appreciate any time you have to give. The other lists are much less whiny as they tend to have longer-range tasks driving them forwards.
Regards from
Tom
Hi
+1
Regards from
Tom
Tom,
As a fellow "users" list taking content in my email stream, I have no issue with your chosen style of participation and with rare exception find your comments germane and correct--which is my metric for viable contribution. You're doing just fine.
However--when replying--could you take just a moment longer and trim your "reply". That simple action greatly improves the flow of the thread whether in a reader, in a mail tool (Outlook), or from the Nabble interface.
Suspect that would lessen the ire of the pontiffs of newsgroup style lurking in the forum.
Warm regards,
Stuart
Hi
I try to sometimes but i guess i could try more often. It negates one of the advantages of top-posting and sometimes when i have tried this it has led to other flame-wars about what is good trimming and what isn't. Also i'm not sure that appeasing the bullies would be a good idea. Giving ground encourages them to push more.
I do like using the Nabble interface when i get the chance and i hope that helps with the issue for the non-bullies that may also be affected.
Regards from
Tom
It would appear that true professionals should, as I think Tom has
suggested, consider the actual guidelines
that is precisely the point... the list guidelines for this list are to bottom post with appropriate trimming (aka inline-posting), and Tom routinely and arrogantly ignores them because he is too lazy to be bothered.
as opposed to pontificating upon them as if they were running a
gulag....
Haven't seen anyone do that, and I certainly wasn't... I merely asked Tom to please stop BREAKING inline posted threads by top-posting in them, and he responded with his same old tired irrelevant BULLSHIT.
+1 to what?
It can not be the post which was below which I read as being a bit sarcastic, as Tom seems to ignore the guide lines.
Tom does a lot of posts and I suggest that he considers my points below instead of just looking at providing a quick answer to whoever is the OP of the particular question/problem.
I am someone who tries to follow and learn from problems others encounter, just a casual user of LO, but I find this list difficult to follow, mainly due to the bad trimming and I am sorry to say the top posters.
Lists like this are a great archive and should be promoted as such, but I seriously think they loose a lot of interest with all this top posting which makes it difficult to find if the problem is the same as the one, one tries to find a solution for. For this one has to read the question first before considering if the answer fits, which all this top posting one often has has to search for the question, instead of seeing it at the top.
Just my 0.02€ and I hope you all have a nice evening.
Werner
I hesitate to add to this thread which is already bloated. However ...
------->8=======
Is our main aim here to change the way people post or
is it to help people move to LibreOffice?Helping people must not become a pain in the neck for the voluntary
supporters. That´s why the posting quidelines should be respected.
Some of us participate on multiple mailing lists relating to a variety of topics (LO, ancestry, etc.). Each mailing list may have it's own posting guidelines. Without always going back to some long forgotten e-mail or web page where the guidelines can be reviewed, we just post in what appears to us as being appropriate on a case by case basis. Seeing how others have posted serves as an informal guideline but it is nothing more than a guideline -- not a dogmatic rule the breaking of which condemns one to eternal punishment.
For me, if something in my reply is general and pertains to the entire message to which I'm responding then I place that at the top. OTOH, if something is directly related to a particular point within the message I trim unrelated matter and interleave my response within the copy of that message. Bottom posting is reserved for new or summarizing matteerial.
--------->8============
Failing to follow guidelines, in this case is not a matter of lack of respect for others on the list but rather a means of attempting to communicate clearly.
May this topic R.I.P.
Hi Marc
It's not worth flogging a dead horse. He will not attempt to consider anyone else's point of view and if you dare to disagree he will just block you too. Hmmm, it might be wrth aiming for that now i think about it.
There is, of course, only ever 1 way to view things and that's your own way, whoever you are. Something i usually like about OpenSource is that it usually allows each of us to follow our own different ways and yet all still be right at the same time even if it all looks completely different. Vive le difference (sorry my French is appalling). How about "Diversity breeds serendipity!" as a sort of 'war'-cry?
Regards from
Tom
Hi,
Lists like this are a great archive and should be promoted as such,
but I seriously think they loose a lot of interest with all this top
posting which makes it difficult to find if the problem is the same
as the one, one tries to find a solution for. For this one has to
read the question first before considering if the answer fits, which
all this top posting one often has has to search for the question,
instead of seeing it at the top.
+1
Thank You
Stefan
Hi
With that trimming you will never know the answer to the question because it is out of context and forces anyone trying to answer to dig up the email where it first appeared. Almost never worth the effort. At best something to leave until later, with 'later' becoming never.
Regards from
Tom
Very true, but I wasn't speaking in a general sense, I was speaking about one certain individual who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that his intention is to arrogantly disregard the list posting guidelines here just because he is a lazy bastard.
Trying to get you to follow common netiquette is like flogging a dead horse. You continue your self-centred juvenile behaviour and, when confronted, claim you are being "bullied". Pointing out proper netiquette is not bullying. Calling it bullying is just a self-indulgent puerile excuse.
OK, so who remembers what the original issue was? And for that there is the Document Foundation lists Nabble archive--where you can take your pick of layout.
Threaded
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Top-posting-tt3767551.html#none
List
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Top-posting-tc3767551.html
or Nabble classic
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Top-posting-td3767551.html#none
Folks, we've come a long way from usenet list posting and terminal based readers--but threaded lists do continue to have a place in efficient exchange of information. More modern collaborative tools remove the infrastructure issues that bottom or in-line posting styles evloved to address. Review the above presentations for function, and decide for yourselves--style is less an issue that content.
Not to say Tom doesn't have content issues occasionally--but don't we all. And for the curious Charles originally gigg'd Tom for going off topic bringing up Base and Writer and Calc, on a thread dealing with Power Point handling in LibreOffice vs. OpenOffice Impress, and flamed him over his top-posting style.
Stuart