Top posting

users
#1

Hi :slight_smile:

Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will
top-post because that is what they are most familiar with.  Office
workers have almost never seen any alternative.  Unless the office apps
are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anything else.

Is it good to start off by telling people off for not doing things your way when we are supposed to be offering them choices?  Should we alienate people and make them feel that to use LibreOffice they have to completely change their entire lifestyle?  Is our main aim here to change the way people post or is it to help people move to LibreOffice?

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#2

Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will
top-post because that is what they are most familiar with.

Perhaps you have encountered that somewhere:

Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

In my entire life I have never seen any mailing list or Usenet group with so
much top-posting and unneeded quotes as this one. Since this is user support
group, it should be just ignored in most cases (we want to help user, not
bully them). But I think that people who often write to group should adapt to
basic mailing etiquette. It isn't that hard, really.

#3

Again this topic? Well.

Is our main aim here to change the way people post or
is it to help people move to LibreOffice?

Helping people must not become a pain in the neck for the voluntary
supporters. That´s why the posting quidelines should be respected.

:slight_smile:

There are already volunteers, who quit supporting, also because they
became tired from folks frequently disregarding the ground rules. Sad.

:frowning:

Stefan

#4

Hi :slight_smile:

Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will
top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Office
workers have almost never seen any alternative. Unless the office apps
are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anything else.

Is it good to start off by telling people off for not doing things your way when we are supposed to be offering them choices? Should we alienate people and make them feel that to use LibreOffice they have to completely change their entire lifestyle? Is our main aim here to change the way people post or is it to help people move to LibreOffice?

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Your persistent top posting in reply to an inline posted thread shows a constant disregard for convention. Your failure to correct your lack of quote levels for the message replied to is reprehensible. You show utter disregard for common netiquette.

If this message alienates you, Good. Your self-centred attitude alienates many.

From: Tanstaafl<tanstaafl@libertytrek.org>
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing LibreOffice - problem
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: "Tom Davies"<tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 22 February, 2012, 17:47

When reading and modifying Microsoft Power Point files OpenOffice.org
did a considerably better job than LibreOffice 3.4.5 (for business
purposes).

Disagree... I have had much better MSO format support in the later
versions of Libreoffice than Openoffice ever provided...

I think Impress and Base need a bit of work but Writer and Calc are
quite fantastic for this sort of thing. Well, for the most part imo.

Please stay in context Tom - and PLEASE stop top-posting in an inline posted thread (I expect this admonition to fall on deaf ears because you have already demonstrated your blatant disregard for respecting the List Posting Guidelines, and refuse to acknowledge the difference between *blindly* *bottom* posting and intelligently in-line posting).

The complaint wasn't about general file format support, it was comparing OOo (prior to LibO splitting off) to subsequent version of LibO.

I maintain my comment that *all* version of LibO have been at least as good, but mostly much *better* than prior version of OOo...

Charles

-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.org
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Since you did not properly show attribution levels, the above message from Tanstaafl appears to be from you.

#5

I avoid the aggravation by having posts from Tom Davies automatically deleted.

#6

Hi :slight_smile:
Top posting and leaving the thread intact allows a person that is new to the thread or can't quite remember context, to gain the full context of the later replies.  It also allows people to only read the last message without having to scroll or wade through tons of stuff from previous messages or try to pick out other emails that have the same subject-line in order to try to make sense of this one.  It neatly achieves both choices without requiring the receiver to do anything other than scroll or not even scroll if they already remember roughly what the thread is about.  If someone reads the latest message and then suddenly realises that they don't seem to know the context after all then they can choose to quickly scroll down and hopefully spot a message that does remind them.  It's the way that almost all emailing works in almost every office, it's the way phones and hand-helds are set-up, it's the way many people on the accessibility list prefer as
they can simply stop the screen-reader once they have got the gist of the reply.

There was a beautiful example earlier where i replied to the message as it was written but then got accused of being off-topic because the alleged topic had been edited out.  Note that the criticism was on-list just to make sure that anyone new to the list becomes very aware that they are likely to be publicly humiliated if they do something slightly wrong.  Imagine queuing to buy something in a shop and the person at the counter punches the customer in front of you.  Would you continue to wait in line or leave and perhaps use a different store?

Note also that top-posters on this list have never asked bottom-posters to post at the top.  It has always been bottom-posters arrogantly demanding that people conform to their own obtuse way of doing things.  I did try bottom-posting a few times and instead of people saying thanks they just further abused me, again only publicly, that i hadn't done something quite right.  If there had been anything approaching politeness or a gentle nudge in the right direction then i might have tried again but i have no interest in allowing bullies to intimidate me or anyone else.

'Regards' from
Tom :slight_smile:

#7

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will
top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Office
workers have almost never seen any alternative. Unless the office apps
are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anything

else.

Oh, dear lord. The "top-posting-vs-bottom-posting" religious wars again.

I say screw you all; I'm posting in the middle from now on. YOU figure
it out.

- --
Steven Shelton

#8

I fully agree with you Tom, but I can follow the flow (up or down) to suit the poster and what ever is the custom in his/her part of the world (customer oriented). Here we file most relevant (recent) on top, digging down for more background but may be other nationalities file most recent on the bottom.
May be forums were invented to circumvent the "top-posting-vs-bottom-posting" religious wars.
steve

#9

True, but unfortunately a sign of the times. Hopefully, this new
'askLO' service will become so popular, the m$-clone fans, top-post
ignorants/lazy/etc. will navigate there. The amusing function of askLO
is that latest posts will always appear at the bottom (correctly!). :slight_smile:

#10

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: True indeed, another top-quality (pun intended) post!

Reminds me of similar, Roland Hughes; he disappeared eventually.
Search for his posts: even more amusing.

#11

Date sent: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:57:51 +0000

True, but unfortunately a sign of the times. Hopefully, this new
'askLO' service will become so popular

Hmmm. Actually, unfortunate experience with that. I tried to register for the
site. The system keeps saying it has sent a validation message, but it never comes.
I have tried to get it to resend the activation message, via:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ucp.php?mode=resend_act
and it always says it does/has, but no message ever shows up. (Yes, I do check my
spam filters. It's not there, either.)

Of course, I can't contact anyone without a validly registered ID. Nor can I re-
register: having tried it once, the system now knows that it has an entry for that
email address, and so won't let it be reused.

No, I do not particularly want askLO to be reading my Tweets or Facebook
account.

Any suggestions? Any way to contact the actual people at askLO?

====================== (quote inserted randomly by Pegasus Mailer)
rslade@vcn.bc.ca slade@victoria.tc.ca rslade@computercrime.org
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate
victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htm http://www.infosecbc.org/links
http://blogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/
http://twitter.com/rslade

#12

So what is the polite way to tell someone that one is going to continue top posting as one may feel appropriate as one may have done as an IT professional for the past 40 years and that if that upsets them they should seek professional assistance?

#13

Date sent: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:57:51 +0000
From: e-letter <inpost@gmail.com>

> True, but unfortunately a sign of the times. Hopefully, this new
> 'askLO' service will become so popular

Hmmm. Actually, unfortunate experience with that. I tried to register for the
site. The system keeps saying it has sent a validation message, but it never comes.
I have tried to get it to resend the activation message, via:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ucp.php?mode=resend_act
and it always says it does/has, but no message ever shows up. (Yes, I do check my
spam filters. It's not there, either.)

Of course, I can't contact anyone without a validly registered ID.

Sure you can - you just did.

Of course now I;m confused - do you want to register at askLibO (in with
case you need an OpenID ID - really that is not a lot to ask - if you
can not find out how to do that without using Facebook on your own, just
say so and I'll point to a few free, non-profit sites that offer those)
_0r_
do you want to register at user.services.oo.o?

#14

It was not until I was on an OOo / LO mail list that I even knew that some people did NOT always top post.

To get around the "bottom post annoyance", I installed software that pretty much hides everything except the reply. Someone on this mailing list I think recommended it as a plug-in for Thunderbird. Saved me a load of frustration. :slight_smile:

So now, I NEVER see any of the original message unless I go to extra effort.

#15

Now that is cold...

#16

Date sent: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:57:51 +0000
From: e-letter <inpost@gmail.com>

> True, but unfortunately a sign of the times. Hopefully, this new
> 'askLO' service will become so popular

Hmmm. Actually, unfortunate experience with that. I tried to register for the
site. The system keeps saying it has sent a validation message, but it never comes.
I have tried to get it to resend the activation message, via:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ucp.php?mode=resend_act
and it always says it does/has, but no message ever shows up. (Yes, I do check my
spam filters. It's not there, either.)

Ok just following up - checked at user.services.oo.o - there is no
registered account at the site with the email address you used to send
the original message here. (of course you may of used a different one)

So - if it is the askLibO site
1 - you would of needed to do so with an OpenID ID
2 - as for how to contact that askLibO admins without being able to
logon - I would use this address:
http://ask.libreoffice.org/feedback/?next=/questions/

If you have further questions I would certainly be willing to work you
on getting answers.

Best wishes,

//drew

#17

Date sent: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:44:53 -0500

Of course now I;m confused - do you want to register at askLibO (in with
case you need an OpenID ID - really that is not a lot to ask - if you
can not find out how to do that without using Facebook on your own, just
say so and I'll point to a few free, non-profit sites that offer those)
_0r_
do you want to register at user.services.oo.o?

Well, coming at it cold, I have no idea. All I know is that I went to the askLO,
couldn't do anything in the way of asking, and got sent into the eternal and useless
activation loop. The specifics of how that happened are lost in my browser
history. Yes, you are correct: I did end up at the openoffice site eventually, but
that was purely as a result of what it asked me to do in the way of registration.

====================== (quote inserted randomly by Pegasus Mailer)
rslade@vcn.bc.ca slade@victoria.tc.ca rslade@computercrime.org
     He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, still dead.
victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htm http://www.infosecbc.org/links
http://blogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/
http://twitter.com/rslade

#18

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:38:59 -0500, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak
<andrew@pitonyak.org> wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top
posting:

I avoid the aggravation by having posts from Tom Davies automatically
deleted.

Now that is cold...

Cold but effective.

#19

Hi :slight_smile:
1st step is to get an OpenID.  This link might help
http://openid.net/get-an-openid/
The disadvantage of using OpenID is that people will have to already be registered at one of the sites that allow you to set-up an OpenID.  Sadly askLO doesn't seem to be one of them yet so it means being registered elsewhere.  The list in the link i just gave doesn't seem to be complete as i am sure i got one OpenID though registering at one of the Ubuntu forums ages ago, probably the http://www.ubuntuforums.com one.

On the positive side you probably already have an OpenId and just didn't really notice that was what you were signing up for.

The askLO makes it all look very confusing and in such cases i tend to find it well worth going "upstream" to the source of the problem and see if they make it easier or can be more helpful.  Usually they tend to be very focused on the precise problem so it's easier for them to deal with any weird and unusual parts of the problem.  In this case "upstream" is the http://openid.net website.  if their instructions don't help they might have a community forum that might be able to help.

However chances are that Drew can probably help as he is a tad brilliant. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#20

Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will
top-post because that is what they are most familiar with.

Yeah yeah yeah, we've heard it all from you before Tom - you persist in your delusions in order to excuse your arrogant laziness and disrespect.

My comment wasn't aimed at 'those new to the list', my comment was aimed at a *veteran* of the lists - YOU.

Office workers have almost never seen any alternative. Unless the
office apps are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to
expect anythingelse.

Oh, so once someone learns one way, they are forever doomed to never learn another?

You continue to disrespect everyone here by such ludicrous suggestions.

Is it good to start off by telling people off for not doing things
your way when we are supposed to be offering them choices?

I didn't tell anyone *new* off, Tom, I simply asked YOU to STOP BREAKING INLINE POSTED THREADS.

I'm DONE with you Tom... you are now officially and forever PLONKED, never to have one of your brain-dead, disrespectful emails to grace my Inbox again.