crash - crash - crash - crash. !@#$#@!

users
#21

Stuart,

Using Version: 4.3.0.0.alpha1 Build ID: 46cfcd5a05aa1d13fecd73f5a25b64b8d8dd6781 on Kubuntu 4.04.

In about 20 hours of fairly intense use I've had exactly one "vector::_M_range_check", and I was unable to replicate it. I'll keep watching.

This is the most solid, stable version I've worked with for many weeks, if not months. A real pleasure.

There a few remaining issue, but not show-stoppers and I'll be working to file a bug report on those as soon as I can reliably reproduce them. One I expect to be able to do this with fairly easy.

Looks like Kohei Yoshida has done some excellent work. I have subscribed to the CC list for fdo#76607, which appears to be the problem that's been causing me such grief.

Onward!

Tom C.

#22

Re: status of forum participant "Urmas" -

I've examined the past 3 months' posts by this individual - approximately 25% of them are slams of LO software or insults to some individual participating in this forum.

Why is this tolerated? Do we not have elementary behavioral guidelines here? Shouldn't we have?

If a forum participant behaves here as if they were lost in some pre-adolescent level of maturity, I think they are not ready to be here. This is not a playground for bullies or want-to-be sociopaths.

I urge that this individual be suspended from participation in this forum for at least a week. If there's another infraction, then make it a month.

Tom C.

#23

Hi Tom,

Urmas was put to forced moderation only recently. We are under strict
orders to let only those posts through, that do not insult anyone on the
list.
Even though we don't let everything through to the list from him, he still
can send out emails directly to the people in question.

I don't think that there is much use in banning him from the mailing lists
itself, since he could just register a new email address and re-subscribe
with this new address.
But rest assured, we're trying very hard to keep this list a reasonable
family-friendly place where we show respect for the other members.

Sigrid

#24

Sigrid,

I thank you for your attention to this matter.

Since his behavior appears to be to send aggressively worded, intimidating messages to forum members which only they see, I STRONGLY URGE anyone receiving such messages to report them publicly to the forum. That way, the privacy which allows such behavior to continue is completely subverted.

Helpful, constructive posts are surely welcome here. Intimidating, personally aggressive ones absolutely are not.

That is my position, and I doubt that anyone will have much objection to it.

Now, just follow through with the suggested response I've outlined, and this behavior should cease.

Sigrid, thanks again for your speedy response.

Tom C.

#25

Did you by chance experience any dependency errors during your install?

See:
<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7823>
(Dependency errors with LibreOfficeDev_4.3.0.0.alpha1_Linux_x86-64_deb
install)

#26

Thanks.

Please remember to reply to the list so that others can benefit from
your response.

#27

I rest my case.

Again: if anyone receives privately anything remotely like this, I suggest you share it with the list.

This problem should concern us all, I think.

Tom C.

#28

"Sigrid Carrera":

Who gave that idiot a permission to publish my personal E-mails in a public list? I never did, so please remove the last message (<53653FAF.8010908@gmail.com>).

#29

No I didn't. It went fine. I've been using it all day. Some problems have arisen, but I'm working through them and trying to find the pattern so I can report them usefully.

t.

     > Stuart,
     >
     > Update and status report - good news! -
     >
     > 1. I've installed Version: 4.3.0.0.alpha1 Build ID:
     > 46cfcd5a05aa1d13fecd73f5a25b64b8d8dd6781.

    Did you by chance experience any dependency errors during your install?

    See:
    <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7823>
    (Dependency errors with LibreOfficeDev_4.3.0.0.alpha1_Linux_x86-64_deb
    install)

#30

Re: status of forum participant "Urmas" -

I've examined the past 3 months' posts by this individual -
approximately 25% of them are slams of LO software or insults to
some individual participating in this forum.

Yeah, he's pretty much regarded as a Microsoft shill. I guess it
doesn't occur to him his behaviour reflects badly on his love.

Why is this tolerated? Do we not have elementary behavioral
guidelines here? Shouldn't we have?

They could boot him. Then he could get a new email address somewhere
else, and start all over again. Wash, rinse, repeat. People like
him are dumber than a box of rocks wrt social issues, but tend to be
very knowledgeable about how to be a PITA.

[snip]

I urge that this individual be suspended from participation in this
forum for at least a week. If there's another infraction, then make
it a month.

Just put him in a set-and-forget filter on your email client and be
done with it. Hopefully nobody on the mailing list will have the bad
sense to copy his nonsense to the mailing list, and Urmas will be
gone from your life.

Q: If an Urmas howls on the 'net and nobody sees him, does he matter?

Jim

#31

Hi :slight_smile:
I don't see how this mailing-list could stop anyone from writing private
emails to people who have written in to this mailing list. We have to work
with what we have got.

I agree it might be a good idea to encourage people to forwards Urmas'
off-list remarks to somewhere but i'm not sure this list would be the best
place. I'm not saying it definitely wouldn't be the best place, just that
there are pros and cons to doing so. There is a "moderators list" and a
"postmasters" email address, but sending just to them would keep those
posts off this list and although that would be good in some ways it creates
potential problems in others.

If this mailing-list made it more difficult to respond to individuals than
to the whole list then that might reduce the potential for that sort of
behaviour but wouldn't eliminate it.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#32

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
i agree that banning or booting is not as easy as it might seem.

I think that it's more difficult for a bully to be effective when
1. the mailing list is supportive of individuals coming here and
2. when the mailing list is clearly not of the same opinion as the bully

What doesn't help is when the mailing list gets bogged down in some
flame-war or has a big fight over the issues or when personal insults fly
to-and-fro. When someone new sees insults flying in from both sides it's
difficult to see either side as (or any side) as being acceptable.

I'm not suggesting that we sweep this under the rug nor that we avoid the
issue nor pretend it doesn't exist. It does exist and at the moment we are
lucky it is only 1 person. Once MS starts to get seriously worried about
LO then history might repeat itself and we find ourselves swamped with many
more. We already see that in the "Comments" sections under many articles,
in the press, about LibreOffice.

I'm not disagreeing with Tom or anyone else that has argued for banning and
other punitive measures. On the contrary i think such measures could well
prove useful in many cases and might even work sometimes or at least
discourage such behaviour even if they are not always as effective as we
would hope for. The more tools we have for dealing with this sort of
behaviour the better imo.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#33

If a given poster is routinely offensive, I find it very effective to ignore said poster.

If nobody responds to an offensive post, then the poster loses an audience.

Virgil

#34

Urmas wrote:

[expletives]

Urmas, stop this. This is now way beyond any acceptable limits.

-- Thorsten

#35

Jim Seymour wrote:

Just put him in a set-and-forget filter on your email client and be
done with it. Hopefully nobody on the mailing list will have the bad
sense to copy his nonsense to the mailing list, and Urmas will be
gone from your life.

That is indeed sensible advise.

And now let's return to normal levels of civility here on this
list.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

#36

+1

Pete .

#37

"Sigrid Carrera":

those posts through, that do not insult anyone on the list.

Please quote me where I did insult anyone here. This is slander.

I don't think that there is much use in banning him from the mailing lists itself

You seem to forget yourself. I am contributing to this project and would like to be treated accordingly by outsiders.

#38

Tom, I have to strongly disagree.

As I've pointed out, bullies flourish when they can act unseen. This is personality disordered behavior (if I may put on my professional hat for a moment). It's due to lack of appropriate internal controls to structure behavior. The solution that works is not to yield ground but to provide external structure. Put plainly, that is about push back. One doesn't need to get riled. _One just needs to get clear, then act._ His behavior is unacceptable. Period. (And that's putting it politely.)

The next person he does this to may be a 12 year old struggling to get a grip on the software and making a mess of it. You want to turn him loose to have at her? Really? I don't think you, and others, have really thought this through.

He knows he's being watched, and yet he acts as if there is no problem for him at all. Why? _Because there isn't_. That needs to change.

I suggest two solutions: he should be banished from the list. If he comes back, repeat as needed.

And, until action is taken, all inappropriate emails from him or anyone else should be forwarded to the list. "No cover for bullies," as I've already said.

I've dealt with people like this on other lists, in my neighborhood, at work (my boss!), and in adolescent treatment centers and mental hospitals. It's always the same drill. One warning, then you lower the boom, decisively. Someone WILL be in control: it's them or it us. We have to decide.

I DO expect an appropriate and effective response from this list, not some ineffectual roll-over.

Tom

#39

Hi :slight_smile:
Various lists have had discussions about that sort of thing in general and
about the specific case. It's a tricky one to handle but i figure the best
on-list way is to just not get riled by his on-list replies.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#40

Tom -

Hi Tom :slight_smile:
Good answers to Urmas there. Considerate, understanding and light-hearted. Nicely done! :slight_smile:

I was allowing for the possibility that he wasn't serious. Turns out not to be true.

I've almost never found 'professional' proprietary stuff to be any better than OpenSource.

My experience exactly.

Indeed a new study by an independant security company found that OpenSource had slightly less errors per 1,000 lines of code. There is also the usual faster response time to fixing issues due to even mere normal users being able to report issues quickly and fairly easily and perhaps even getting involved in solving the problem and discovering coding skills.

*Faster response time:* Yes. I've been running the latest alpha build. My "vector M" nonsense problem is gone. But there was a problem with row sorting crashing the program. I just installed the very latest Master, on the advice of the dev replying to my bug report. Now THAT problem appears to be gone. This is all very cool.

*Getting involved: *Yes, also.**I'm learning the bug reporting interface and protocol, in the process. Is easy enough. Looks like I've found a way I can contribute, with my very limited time. That, too, is very cool.

Now we just need to get right of the Urmas bullying bug and we'll be all set. I'll be watching that one especially closely.

t.