Documentation for l10n

l10n
#1

Hi all,

I've written two guides to help new comers with their localization:

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you see something missing or not clear enough, don't hesitate to tell me.

Kind regards
Sophie

#2

Hi Sophie,
Thanks a lot. Great work.

/Leif

#3

Hello Sophie, *,

I've written two guides to help new comers with their
localization:

thank you very much :slight_smile:

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

As you may have seen, I have proofread it and corrected a couple of
things ... :wink:

But still ... I am not that contented with it ... :frowning:

1. I am not sure, if it is really "on Pootle" or "in Pootle" (e.g.
"Manage (depending on your permissions on Pootle, you may not see
this area)" ... :frowning: My gut feeling says, it should be "in Pootle",
but I may be wrong here ... :wink: ).
2. Is there any possibilty to resize a picture in MediaWiki? The
pictures in chapter 3 ("String area on the Translate tab",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TranslateTab.png), 3.4
("Status Bar giving several indications and filter possibilities",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:StatusBar.png), and 4,2
("Terminology entry showing comment and information",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Terminology.png) are much
too broad on my system (Debian Testing AMD64 w/ Firefox 27.0a1
(2013-10-11) and Chromium Version 29.0.1547.57 Debian jessie/sid
(217859), KDE 4.10.5, and a display resolution from 1024x768) ... :frowning:
3. Under header "3 Translate"
(https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide#Translate) you have
written: "See the screenshot below: on the left, the element that
will help you, on the middle the source string and your translation,
on the right the submission button and failed checks if any.". What
do you mean with "on the left, the element that will help you"? How
exactly would it help me? Would you be so kind to explain it a
little bit further? And I cannot help, but this sentence sounds
really strange ... :frowning: But maybe my last English lesson was too long
ago, and I have forgotten too much ... :wink:
4. Under the header "2.3 Search" you wrote: "As you can see, this
search field is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands
documented under this page (linked later) if you are using Linux.".
Where do I find either the explanation or the link you mention here?
Is this something you wanted to add later for some reason ;?

And maybe there are other errors and/or misrepresentations (which I
have missed), but I think it would be better, if a native speaker
would proofread it again ... :wink:

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands

Ah, O.K. That may answer my question 4 above ... :wink:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you are not enough disturbed from all the wiki mails, I may have
a look at it tomorrow ... :wink:

If you see something missing or not clear enough, don't hesitate
to tell me.

[Done] ... :wink:
Have a nice evening
Thomas.

#4

Hi Thomas,

Hello Sophie, *,

I've written two guides to help new comers with their
localization:

thank you very much :slight_smile:

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

As you may have seen, I have proofread it and corrected a couple of
things ... :wink:

Yes, I often have problem with 'chose' and 'below' and a couple of others :wink:

But still ... I am not that contented with it ... :frowning:

ok, thanks a lot for your feedback, I'll go through it tomorrow.

1. I am not sure, if it is really "on Pootle" or "in Pootle" (e.g.
"Manage (depending on your permissions on Pootle, you may not see
this area)" ... :frowning: My gut feeling says, it should be "in Pootle",
but I may be wrong here ... :wink: ).
2. Is there any possibilty to resize a picture in MediaWiki? The
pictures in chapter 3 ("String area on the Translate tab",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TranslateTab.png), 3.4
("Status Bar giving several indications and filter possibilities",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:StatusBar.png), and 4,2
("Terminology entry showing comment and information",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Terminology.png) are much
too broad on my system (Debian Testing AMD64 w/ Firefox 27.0a1
(2013-10-11) and Chromium Version 29.0.1547.57 Debian jessie/sid
(217859), KDE 4.10.5, and a display resolution from 1024x768) ... :frowning:

what is done usually is to thumbnail them, and you get the full size by
clicking on it. I can do it, no problem

3. Under header "3 Translate"
(https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide#Translate) you have
written: "See the screenshot below: on the left, the element that
will help you, on the middle the source string and your translation,
on the right the submission button and failed checks if any.". What
do you mean with "on the left, the element that will help you"? How
exactly would it help me? Would you be so kind to explain it a
little bit further? And I cannot help, but this sentence sounds
really strange ... :frowning: But maybe my last English lesson was too long
ago, and I have forgotten too much ... :wink:

ok, some explanations on vote for suggestions are still missing too.

4. Under the header "2.3 Search" you wrote: "As you can see, this
search field is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands
documented under this page (linked later) if you are using Linux.".
Where do I find either the explanation or the link you mention here?
Is this something you wanted to add later for some reason ;?

yes, the second link I mentionned :slight_smile:

And maybe there are other errors and/or misrepresentations (which I
have missed), but I think it would be better, if a native speaker
would proofread it again ... :wink:

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands

Ah, O.K. That may answer my question 4 above ... :wink:

:slight_smile:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you are not enough disturbed from all the wiki mails, I may have
a look at it tomorrow ... :wink:

great, that will help all of us, so don't hesitate to be critical :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Sophie

#5

11 Eki 2013 10:17 tarihinde "Sophie" <gautier.sophie@gmail.com> yazdı:

Hi all,

Hi Sophie,

I've written two guides to help new comers with their localization:

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

Thank you for these great guides. İ have written a guide in Turkish but it
became outdated as the pootle upgraded. With your guides the update of
Turkish guide will be very easy :slight_smile:

These will help us very much :slight_smile:

Best regards
Zeki

#6

Hello Sophie, *,
[two new Pootle guides]

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

As you may have seen, I have proofread it and corrected a couple
of things ... :wink:

Yes, I often have problem with 'chose' and 'below' and a couple of
others :wink:

:smiley:

But still ... I am not that contented with it ... :frowning:

ok, thanks a lot for your feedback, I'll go through it tomorrow.

O.K.

1. I am not sure, if it is really "on Pootle" or "in Pootle"
(e.g. "Manage (depending on your permissions on Pootle, you may
not see this area)" ... :frowning: My gut feeling says, it should be "in
Pootle", but I may be wrong here ... :wink: ).
2. Is there any possibilty to resize a picture in MediaWiki? The
pictures in chapter 3 ("String area on the Translate tab",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TranslateTab.png), 3.4
("Status Bar giving several indications and filter
possibilities",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:StatusBar.png), and 4,2
("Terminology entry showing comment and information",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Terminology.png) are
much too broad on my system (Debian Testing AMD64 w/ Firefox
27.0a1
(2013-10-11) and Chromium Version 29.0.1547.57 Debian jessie/sid
(217859), KDE 4.10.5, and a display resolution from 1024x768) ...
:frowning:

what is done usually is to thumbnail them, and you get the full
size by clicking on it. I can do it, no problem

That would be a possibility. I thought, it would be possible to
resize them via – say – <img src: Filename.png size:optional> (that
would be pseudo HTML, though I am not sure, how this has to look
like in wiki syntax or if it is possible) ... :wink: The source code of
the site has [[File:FailingCheks.png|frame|border|none|alt=...]] in
it. For what reason is the "none" there? Anything to use for
something special?

3. Under header "3 Translate"
(https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide#Translate) you
have written: "See the screenshot below: on the left, the element
that will help you, on the middle the source string and your
translation, on the right the submission button and failed checks
if any.". What do you mean with "on the left, the element that
will help you"? How exactly would it help me? Would you be so
kind to explain it a little bit further? And I cannot help, but
this sentence sounds really strange ... :frowning: But maybe my last
English lesson was too long ago, and I have forgotten too much
... :wink:

ok, some explanations on vote for suggestions are still missing
too.

O.K.

4. Under the header "2.3 Search" you wrote: "As you can see, this
search field is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands
documented under this page (linked later) if you are using
Linux.". Where do I find either the explanation or the link you
mention here? Is this something you wanted to add later for some
reason ;?

yes, the second link I mentionned :slight_smile:

Would it not be better to write "As you can see, this search field
is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands explained [[Name of
second guide]], if you are using Linux." ;? Then you can shorten the
description and you do not need any further paragraph, link
collection or the like on this page ... :wink:

<snip>

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you are not enough disturbed from all the wiki mails, I may
have a look at it tomorrow ... :wink:

great, that will help all of us, so don't hesitate to be critical
:slight_smile:

O.K. I will have a look at it tomorrow :slight_smile:
Have a nice evening
Thomas.

#7

In data venerdì 11 ottobre 2013 09:17:41, Sophie ha scritto:

Hi all,

I've written two guides to help new comers with their localization:

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you see something missing or not clear enough, don't hesitate to tell me.

Fantastic Sophie.

We needed them :slight_smile:

Ciao

#8

Hi :slight_smile:  
Would it be a good idea to ask the Documentation Team to proof-read these sorts of useful pages?

They are not very confident about wiki-editing yet and might not get around to doing the proof-reading for ages but it might help them understand some of the tools you are familiar with and that might help them understand what they could consider doing with the originals to make it easier.  They are getting more confident with wiki-editing and have seen that when they make a mistake it's seldom fatal! :wink:

There are a couple of native English speakers.  Anne-ology kindly volunteered to join this list to help with all the questions about the small strings that kept appearing on-list a few months ago but just after she joined such questions stopped appearing on-list.

I had a really speedy skim-read but i tend to find that after Sophie has proof-read something it rarely needs any changes so i might have skimmed through too fast this time.  
Regards from 
Tom :slight_smile:

In data venerdì 11 ottobre 2013 09:17:41, Sophie ha scritto:

Hi all,

I've written two guides to help new comers with their localization:

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you see something missing or not clear enough, don't hesitate to tell me.

Fantastic Sophie.

We needed them :slight_smile:

Ciao

#9

Hi Thomas, *

Hello Sophie, *,
[two new Pootle guides]

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

As you may have seen, I have proofread it and corrected a couple
of things ... :wink:

Yes, I often have problem with 'chose' and 'below' and a couple of
others :wink:

:smiley:

But still ... I am not that contented with it ... :frowning:

ok, thanks a lot for your feedback, I'll go through it tomorrow.

O.K.

1. I am not sure, if it is really "on Pootle" or "in Pootle"
(e.g. "Manage (depending on your permissions on Pootle, you may
not see this area)" ... :frowning: My gut feeling says, it should be "in
Pootle", but I may be wrong here ... :wink: ).
2. Is there any possibilty to resize a picture in MediaWiki? The
pictures in chapter 3 ("String area on the Translate tab",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TranslateTab.png), 3.4
("Status Bar giving several indications and filter
possibilities",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:StatusBar.png), and 4,2
("Terminology entry showing comment and information",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Terminology.png) are
much too broad on my system (Debian Testing AMD64 w/ Firefox
27.0a1
(2013-10-11) and Chromium Version 29.0.1547.57 Debian jessie/sid
(217859), KDE 4.10.5, and a display resolution from 1024x768) ...
:frowning:

what is done usually is to thumbnail them, and you get the full
size by clicking on it. I can do it, no problem

That would be a possibility. I thought, it would be possible to
resize them via – say – <img src: Filename.png size:optional> (that
would be pseudo HTML, though I am not sure, how this has to look
like in wiki syntax or if it is possible) ... :wink: The source code of
the site has [[File:FailingCheks.png|frame|border|none|alt=...]] in
it. For what reason is the "none" there? Anything to use for
something special?

'none' is to keep the picture left without text flow when you thumbed
them (it's part of my own collection of wiki syntax that I copy/past :wink:

3. Under header "3 Translate"
(https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide#Translate) you
have written: "See the screenshot below: on the left, the element
that will help you, on the middle the source string and your
translation, on the right the submission button and failed checks
if any.". What do you mean with "on the left, the element that
will help you"? How exactly would it help me? Would you be so
kind to explain it a little bit further? And I cannot help, but
this sentence sounds really strange ... :frowning: But maybe my last
English lesson was too long ago, and I have forgotten too much
... :wink:

ok, some explanations on vote for suggestions are still missing
too.

O.K.

4. Under the header "2.3 Search" you wrote: "As you can see, this
search field is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands
documented under this page (linked later) if you are using
Linux.". Where do I find either the explanation or the link you
mention here? Is this something you wanted to add later for some
reason ;?

yes, the second link I mentionned :slight_smile:

Would it not be better to write "As you can see, this search field
is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands explained [[Name of
second guide]], if you are using Linux." ;? Then you can shorten the
description and you do not need any further paragraph, link
collection or the like on this page ... :wink:

oh, I didn't want to add anything else but the link, it's done now.

Kind regards
Sophie

#10

Hello Sophie, *,

[two new Pootle guides]

- one about Pootle:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/PootleGuide

As you may have seen, I have proofread it and corrected a
couple of things ... :wink:

<snip>

2. Is there any possibilty to resize a picture in MediaWiki?
The pictures in chapter 3 ("String area on the Translate tab",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TranslateTab.png), 3.4
("Status Bar giving several indications and filter
possibilities",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:StatusBar.png), and
4,2 ("Terminology entry showing comment and information",
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Terminology.png) are
much too broad on my system (Debian Testing AMD64 w/ Firefox
27.0a1
(2013-10-11) and Chromium Version 29.0.1547.57 Debian
jessie/sid (217859), KDE 4.10.5, and a display resolution from
1024x768) ...
:frowning:

what is done usually is to thumbnail them, and you get the full
size by clicking on it. I can do it, no problem

That would be a possibility. I thought, it would be possible to
resize them via – say – <img src: Filename.png size:optional>
(that would be pseudo HTML, though I am not sure, how this has to
look like in wiki syntax or if it is possible) ... :wink: The source
code of the site has
[[File:FailingCheks.png|frame|border|none|alt=...]] in it. For
what reason is the "none" there? Anything to use for something
special?

'none' is to keep the picture left without text flow when you
thumbed them (it's part of my own collection of wiki syntax that I
copy/past :wink:

Ah, O.K. Thanks for the info :slight_smile:

<snip>

4. Under the header "2.3 Search" you wrote: "As you can see,
this search field is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands
documented under this page (linked later) if you are using
Linux.". Where do I find either the explanation or the link you
mention here? Is this something you wanted to add later for
some reason ;?

yes, the second link I mentionned :slight_smile:

Would it not be better to write "As you can see, this search
field is pretty limited. You can find Grep commands explained
[[Name of second guide]], if you are using Linux." ;? Then you
can shorten the description and you do not need any further
paragraph, link collection or the like on this page ... :wink:

oh, I didn't want to add anything else but the link, it's done
now.

Thanks :slight_smile:

I will send another mail with questions and the like in a new mail,
so that this one does not get more bloated ... :wink:
Greetings
Thomas.

#11

Hello Sophie, *,
sorry for being such a pest, but ... :wink:

I've written two guides to help new comers with their
localization:

<snip>

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you see something missing or not clear enough, don't hesitate
to tell me.

After proofreading I still have a couple of questions and or
annotations, so be prepared ... :wink: tl;dr ... :wink:

1. You have really often used "must not". I have changed some of
them to "have not to", "need not" or tried to circumvent them
otherwise ... :wink: But there are still a lot of them in the text, so
it would be nice, if someone has another look at it ... :wink:
I am not sure (my last English lesson is too far in the past,
sorry), but was it not mostly used in official texts, legal
instruments and the like?

2. Below "3.3 <bookmark_value></bookmark_value>" you wrote
<quote>
Sometimes it happens that the word in the sources has a different
meaning in English but not in your language, like header and title.
If you find such entry like
<bookmark_value>Header;Title</bookmark_value>, you can just remove
it from your translation, as it will have no effect.
</quote>
(first point below the grey box). Are you sure, that you really can
remove it? I seem to remember, that either Pootle will spit out an
error message or there will be a problem during compiling LO (but I
may be wrong here ... :wink: ).

3. There is also the following:
<quote>
There should not be two similar entries in the help directory
because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
. Should it not be
<quote>
There should not be the same entry more than one time in the help
directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
or
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same name in the help
directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
(or something like that ... :wink: ) instead?

4. Below "4.1 Translate Toolkit" you wrote the program names
capitalized. Was it intended? If so, you need to change it back, as
I have used their spelling, like they appear in the command line ...
:wink:

5. Same paragraph: Just out of interest: Why do you link to
Translate Toolkit's online documentation? Would it not be more
helpful to mention "man poterminoloy" or "info poterminology" and
the like?

6. Thank you for "4.2 Using grep to find strings" :slight_smile: Some really
interesting information in it, nice :slight_smile: But why do you write every
option separatly? Like
<quote>
grep -r -i 'word' directory
</quote>
? You could also use
<quote>
grep -ri 'word' directory
</quote>
without any problem (or better say: /I/ can use it with grep 2.14
under Debian Testing AMD64) ... :wink: The same applies to
<quote>
grep -r -i -n 'word' directory
</quote>
, which you can shorten to
<quote>
grep -rin 'word' directory
</quote>
... :wink:

7. Same place:
<quote>
If you have an escaping character in your search, like an apostrophe
(e.g. child's book in English or l'objet in French), the simplest
way to overcome that is to enclose the word to search with double
quotes instead of single ones, like in this example:
</quote>
What do you mean with "escaping character" here? Did you not mean
"characters to escape"?

8. The last sentence from "4.3 Using sed to modify your files":
<quote>
you will find more information on the gnu site about the delimiters,
the regular expressions and syntax.
</quote>
. Why do you link to the online version of the manpage from sed,
when it is installed on your system ;? And you could use "info sed"
as well to get additional information ... :wink:

9. Some of the text of the grey boxes with the examples are too
long, when I view them with FF 27.0a1 (2013-10-12) under Debian
Testing AMD64 and using a display resolution of 1024x768 (like the
box with
<quote>
#1 Verify Impress is running \n
#2 For Bluetooth user, enable "Preferences"-"LibreOffice
Impress"-"General"-"Enable remote control"\n
#3 For WiFi user, tick
"Preferences"-"LibreOffice"-"Advanced"-"Enable Experimental
Features" \n
</quote>
, where the last part of the second line (l"\n") is outside of the
box ... :frowning: Is there a possibility to get the texts inside the grey
box (either resizing the box or splitting the lines or ...)?

That was all, I have found so far ... :wink: Have a nice evening
Thomas.

#12

Also, the localized help wiki has unlocalizable strings as I reported
months ago:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67148

Lp, m.

#13

Hi Thomas,

Hello Sophie, *,
sorry for being such a pest, but ... :wink:

I've written two guides to help new comers with their
localization:

<snip>

- one about UI and Help files contents (variables, xml) and some
grep/sed commands

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide

If you see something missing or not clear enough, don't hesitate
to tell me.

After proofreading I still have a couple of questions and or
annotations, so be prepared ... :wink: tl;dr ... :wink:

1. You have really often used "must not". I have changed some of
them to "have not to", "need not" or tried to circumvent them
otherwise ... :wink: But there are still a lot of them in the text, so
it would be nice, if someone has another look at it ... :wink:
I am not sure (my last English lesson is too far in the past,
sorry), but was it not mostly used in official texts, legal
instruments and the like?

I used 'must not' because it's a 'must not' :slight_smile:

2. Below "3.3 <bookmark_value></bookmark_value>" you wrote
<quote>
Sometimes it happens that the word in the sources has a different
meaning in English but not in your language, like header and title.
If you find such entry like
<bookmark_value>Header;Title</bookmark_value>, you can just remove
it from your translation, as it will have no effect.
</quote>
(first point below the grey box). Are you sure, that you really can
remove it? I seem to remember, that either Pootle will spit out an
error message or there will be a problem during compiling LO (but I
may be wrong here ... :wink: ).

Yes, I'm sure, I've already done it (and already broke the index too :wink:

3. There is also the following:
<quote>
There should not be two similar entries in the help directory
because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
. Should it not be
<quote>
There should not be the same entry more than one time in the help
directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
or
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same name in the help
directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
(or something like that ... :wink: ) instead?

For me it means the same, but if you prefer one over another, please
change it. Your last proposition however could be difficult to
understand, because 'name' is less precise.

4. Below "4.1 Translate Toolkit" you wrote the program names
capitalized. Was it intended? If so, you need to change it back, as
I have used their spelling, like they appear in the command line ...
:wink:

no problem :slight_smile:

5. Same paragraph: Just out of interest: Why do you link to
Translate Toolkit's online documentation? Would it not be more
helpful to mention "man poterminoloy" or "info poterminology" and
the like?

I did so because most of the translators are not technical at all and
will prefer to read the help on a web page than on a terminal

6. Thank you for "4.2 Using grep to find strings" :slight_smile: Some really
interesting information in it, nice :slight_smile: But why do you write every
option separatly? Like
<quote>
grep -r -i 'word' directory
</quote>
? You could also use
<quote>
grep -ri 'word' directory
</quote>
without any problem (or better say: /I/ can use it with grep 2.14
under Debian Testing AMD64) ... :wink: The same applies to
<quote>
grep -r -i -n 'word' directory
</quote>
, which you can shorten to
<quote>
grep -rin 'word' directory
</quote>
... :wink:

same as above, I prefer they really understand what they do, so step by
step with one option separated from the others, when you learn, it is
easier to execute and remember. I could have given only one command line
with all the parameters explained below, but when it's your first try,
it is safe to do one thing after another.

7. Same place:
<quote>
If you have an escaping character in your search, like an apostrophe
(e.g. child's book in English or l'objet in French), the simplest
way to overcome that is to enclose the word to search with double
quotes instead of single ones, like in this example:
</quote>
What do you mean with "escaping character" here? Did you not mean
"characters to escape"?

I mean an apostrophe, like I mentioned it, it is an escaping character
that will be interpreted when you don't want it.

8. The last sentence from "4.3 Using sed to modify your files":
<quote>
you will find more information on the gnu site about the delimiters,
the regular expressions and syntax.
</quote>
. Why do you link to the online version of the manpage from sed,
when it is installed on your system ;? And you could use "info sed"
as well to get additional information ... :wink:

same as above. My position here is to help people who have never touched
a terminal and they will feel more at ease reading out of it.

9. Some of the text of the grey boxes with the examples are too
long, when I view them with FF 27.0a1 (2013-10-12) under Debian
Testing AMD64 and using a display resolution of 1024x768 (like the
box with
<quote>
#1 Verify Impress is running \n
#2 For Bluetooth user, enable "Preferences"-"LibreOffice
Impress"-"General"-"Enable remote control"\n
#3 For WiFi user, tick
"Preferences"-"LibreOffice"-"Advanced"-"Enable Experimental
Features" \n
</quote>
, where the last part of the second line (l"\n") is outside of the
box ... :frowning: Is there a possibility to get the texts inside the grey
box (either resizing the box or splitting the lines or ...)?

the box get the size of the sentence, so I'll split the sentence in more
lines.

That was all, I have found so far ... :wink: Have a nice evening
Thomas.

Thanks a lot for your proof reading and suggestions :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Sophie

#14

Hello Sophie, *,
[two new guides to Pootle]

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide
<snip>

1. You have really often used "must not". I have changed some of
them to "have not to", "need not" or tried to circumvent them
otherwise ... :wink: But there are still a lot of them in the text,
so it would be nice, if someone has another look at it ... :wink:
I am not sure (my last English lesson is too far in the past,
sorry), but was it not mostly used in official texts, legal
instruments and the like?

I used 'must not' because it's a 'must not' :slight_smile:

O.K. Still ... Maybe we should either replace a couple of them to
"to have not to", "need not to" or the like, as it sounds a little
bit ... annoying IMHO ... :wink:

But I still have this ticking "you should not use 'must not' in
English texts" in the back of my head ... :wink:

2. Below "3.3 <bookmark_value></bookmark_value>" you wrote
<quote>
Sometimes it happens that the word in the sources has a different
meaning in English but not in your language, like header and
title. If you find such entry like
<bookmark_value>Header;Title</bookmark_value>, you can just
remove it from your translation, as it will have no effect.
</quote>
(first point below the grey box). Are you sure, that you really
can remove it? I seem to remember, that either Pootle will spit
out an error message or there will be a problem during compiling
LO (but I may be wrong here ... :wink: ).

Yes, I'm sure, I've already done it (and already broke the index
too :wink:

Ah, O.K. I did not want to test it, in case it breaks anything ...
:wink:

3. There is also the following:
<quote>
There should not be two similar entries in the help directory
because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
. Should it not be
<quote>
There should not be the same entry more than one time in the help
directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
or
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same name in the
help directory because it will break the index display in the
help UI. </quote>
(or something like that ... :wink: ) instead?

For me it means the same, but if you prefer one over another,
please change it. Your last proposition however could be difficult
to understand, because 'name' is less precise.

O.K., but similar != same ... :wink:

<snip>

5. Same paragraph: Just out of interest: Why do you link to
Translate Toolkit's online documentation? Would it not be more
helpful to mention "man poterminoloy" or "info poterminology" and
the like?

I did so because most of the translators are not technical at all
and will prefer to read the help on a web page than on a terminal

O.K.

6. Thank you for "4.2 Using grep to find strings" :slight_smile: Some really
interesting information in it, nice :slight_smile: But why do you write every
option separatly? Like
<quote>
grep -r -i 'word' directory
</quote>
? You could also use
<quote>
grep -ri 'word' directory
</quote>
without any problem (or better say: /I/ can use it with grep 2.14
under Debian Testing AMD64) ... :wink: The same applies to
<quote>
grep -r -i -n 'word' directory
</quote>
, which you can shorten to
<quote>
grep -rin 'word' directory
</quote>
... :wink:

same as above, I prefer they really understand what they do, so
step by step with one option separated from the others, when you
learn, it is easier to execute and remember. I could have given
only one command line with all the parameters explained below, but
when it's your first try, it is safe to do one thing after
another.

O.K.

7. Same place:
<quote>
If you have an escaping character in your search, like an
apostrophe (e.g. child's book in English or l'objet in French),
the simplest way to overcome that is to enclose the word to
search with double quotes instead of single ones, like in this
example: </quote>
What do you mean with "escaping character" here? Did you not mean
"characters to escape"?

I mean an apostrophe, like I mentioned it, it is an escaping
character that will be interpreted when you don't want it.

Maybe I do understand you wrong here, but an apostrophe is an
punctuation mark (or diacritical mark, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe), whereas an escape
character would be a character, which is used in a shell, a program
or the like (there are also metacharacters, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacharacter ... :wink: ), as it it
explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_character ... :wink: I
have not heard "escaping character" before, but that does not mean
anything ... :wink:

8. The last sentence from "4.3 Using sed to modify your files":
<quote>
you will find more information on the gnu site about the
delimiters, the regular expressions and syntax.
</quote>
. Why do you link to the online version of the manpage from sed,
when it is installed on your system ;? And you could use "info
sed" as well to get additional information ... :wink:

same as above. My position here is to help people who have never
touched a terminal and they will feel more at ease reading out of
it.

O.K. Though I was really pleased, when I found out, that there is
such a nice "feature" like "man $program" or "info $program", and I
had not to open a browser every time, when I had a problem with the
usage of a program ... :wink:

9. Some of the text of the grey boxes with the examples are too
long, when I view them with FF 27.0a1 (2013-10-12) under Debian
Testing AMD64 and using a display resolution of 1024x768 (like
the box with
<quote>
#1 Verify Impress is running \n
#2 For Bluetooth user, enable "Preferences"-"LibreOffice
Impress"-"General"-"Enable remote control"\n
#3 For WiFi user, tick
"Preferences"-"LibreOffice"-"Advanced"-"Enable Experimental
Features" \n
</quote>
, where the last part of the second line (l"\n") is outside of
the box ... :frowning: Is there a possibility to get the texts inside the
grey box (either resizing the box or splitting the lines or ...)?

the box get the size of the sentence, so I'll split the sentence
in more lines.

That would be nice, thank you :slight_smile:

That was all, I have found so far ... :wink: Have a nice evening

Thanks a lot for your proof reading and suggestions :slight_smile:

You are welcome :slight_smile:
Have a nice day
Thomas.

#15

Hi :slight_smile:
I tend to dislike "must not" too.  It's soo authoritarian that it makes me want to go against it or to find out why not by experimentation.  I prefer things like;
should avoid
try not to
please don't 
it's worth avoiding ...  because ... 
and other such less definite equivalents.  Even better is if you can flip it around to say the positive instead.

3.  Looks clunky.  I do prefer the 3rd way of writing it but can now see the problem that Sophie was trying to avoid.  Perhaps 
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same contents in the help directory because it will break the index display in the help UI. 
</quote>
Perhaps instead of "contents" it might be better to use another word such as; text, value, errr i can't think of others but maybe Anne-ology might know a much better choice.

In 5 & 6 i agree with Sophie.  It is less elegant but is less likely to create confusion.  When a number of tags get combined (as in "-rin") it almost looks like a word that might need to be translated whereas separately they are clearly tags/options.  People probably wouldn't try to translate "-r -i -n".

There are tags that are entire words and those might need translating, for example with the rsync command there is "--partial" and "--progress" but
a)  Those have a double "-" sign
b)  Only translate if the under-laying OS is in a non-English language and only if the particular command has been translated
There are too many ifs there so it's probably worth avoiding those sorts of tags

7  "Escape character" might be written as "escaping character" without changing the meaning.  The grammar of the sentence might require an "ing", or else the term would need to be defined.  Devs and coders might have a more precise meaning for the term but i think the usage is sufficiently close and is readily understood by normal users without explanation.

General notes

It is good to learn about built-in help available on the command-line and easy to look-up without going off and opening a web-browser but i agree with Sophie that it is all really a subject for other books and faqs and there are plenty of them already!  People still don't know all about all this and there is no reason they should.  I hadn't known of "info" until this post so thanks for that! :slight_smile:  I generally use "--help" or "-h" to get a quick little "cheat sheet" or "quick reference card" about a command before running it.  For example

sed -h

The "man" pages give a LOT more detail but it's awkward to keep them open while typing on the command-line itself (unless you open it in a new windows or tab).  Also it took me ages to realise that it was a "vi" editor and that i could escape by using 
:q
before that i was a bit stuck because even "Ctrl c" wouldn't get me back to the command-line and i'd have to close the "terminal console" / "command-prompt window".  Now i know about ":q" it's easier for me.

man sed

Anyway, nicely done!  Especially with 3.  That was a good catch :slight_smile:  The other questions were good to find out about, discuss and agree a general policy about so that was all good too. :smiley:
Congrats and regards from 
Tom :slight_smile:

Hello Sophie, *,
[two new guides to Pootle]

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide
<snip>

1. You have really often used "must not". I have changed some of
them to "have not to", "need not" or tried to circumvent them
otherwise ... :wink: But there are still a lot of them in the text,
so it would be nice, if someone has another look at it ... :wink:
I am not sure (my last English lesson is too far in the past,
sorry), but was it not mostly used in official texts, legal
instruments and the like?

I used 'must not' because it's a 'must not' :slight_smile:

O.K. Still ... Maybe we should either replace a couple of them to
"to have not to", "need not to" or the like, as it sounds a little
bit ... annoying IMHO ... :wink:

But I still have this ticking "you should not use 'must not' in
English texts" in the back of my head ... :wink:

2. Below "3.3 <bookmark_value></bookmark_value>" you wrote
<quote>
Sometimes it happens that the word in the sources has a different
meaning in English but not in your language, like header and
title. If you find such entry like
<bookmark_value>Header;Title</bookmark_value>, you can just
remove it from your translation, as it will have no effect.
</quote>
(first point below the grey box). Are you sure, that you really
can remove it? I seem to remember, that either Pootle will spit
out an error message or there will be a problem during compiling
LO (but I may be wrong here ... :wink: ).

Yes, I'm sure, I've already done it (and already broke the index
too :wink:

Ah, O.K. I did not want to test it, in case it breaks anything ...
:wink:

3. There is also the following:
<quote>
There should not be two similar entries in the help directory
because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
. Should it not be
<quote>
There should not be the same entry more than one time in the help
directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
or
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same name in the
help directory because it will break the index display in the
help UI. </quote>
(or something like that ... :wink: ) instead?

For me it means the same, but if you prefer one over another,
please change it. Your last proposition however could be difficult
to understand, because 'name' is less precise.

O.K., but similar != same ... :wink:

<snip>

5. Same paragraph: Just out of interest: Why do you link to
Translate Toolkit's online documentation? Would it not be more
helpful to mention "man poterminoloy" or "info poterminology" and
the like?

I did so because most of the translators are not technical at all
and will prefer to read the help on a web page than on a terminal

O.K.

6. Thank you for "4.2 Using grep to find strings" :slight_smile: Some really
interesting information in it, nice :slight_smile: But why do you write every
option separatly? Like
<quote>
grep -r -i 'word' directory
</quote>
? You could also use
<quote>
grep -ri 'word' directory
</quote>
without any problem (or better say: /I/ can use it with grep 2.14
under Debian Testing AMD64) ... :wink: The same applies to
<quote>
grep -r -i -n 'word' directory
</quote>
, which you can shorten to
<quote>
grep -rin 'word' directory
</quote>
... :wink:

same as above, I prefer they really understand what they do, so
step by step with one option separated from the others, when you
learn, it is easier to execute and remember. I could have given
only one command line with all the parameters explained below, but
when it's your first try, it is safe to do one thing after
another.

O.K.

7. Same place:
<quote>
If you have an escaping character in your search, like an
apostrophe (e.g. child's book in English or l'objet in French),
the simplest way to overcome that is to enclose the word to
search with double quotes instead of single ones, like in this
example: </quote>
What do you mean with "escaping character" here? Did you not mean
"characters to escape"?

I mean an apostrophe, like I mentioned it, it is an escaping
character that will be interpreted when you don't want it.

Maybe I do understand you wrong here, but an apostrophe is an
punctuation mark (or diacritical mark, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe), whereas an escape
character would be a character, which is used in a shell, a program
or the like (there are also metacharacters, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacharacter ... :wink: ), as it it
explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_character ... :wink: I
have not heard "escaping character" before, but that does not mean
anything ... :wink:

8. The last sentence from "4.3 Using sed to modify your files":
<quote>
you will find more information on the gnu site about the
delimiters, the regular expressions and syntax.
</quote>
. Why do you link to the online version of the manpage from sed,
when it is installed on your system ;? And you could use "info
sed" as well to get additional information ... :wink:

same as above. My position here is to help people who have never
touched a terminal and they will feel more at ease reading out of
it.

O.K. Though I was really pleased, when I found out, that there is
such a nice "feature" like "man $program" or "info $program", and I
had not to open a browser every time, when I had a problem with the
usage of a program ... :wink:

9. Some of the text of the grey boxes with the examples are too
long, when I view them with FF 27.0a1 (2013-10-12) under Debian
Testing AMD64 and using a display resolution of 1024x768 (like
the box with
<quote>
#1 Verify Impress is running \n
#2 For Bluetooth user, enable "Preferences"-"LibreOffice
Impress"-"General"-"Enable remote control"\n
#3 For WiFi user, tick
"Preferences"-"LibreOffice"-"Advanced"-"Enable Experimental
Features" \n
</quote>
, where the last part of the second line (l"\n") is outside of
the box ... :frowning: Is there a possibility to get the texts inside the
grey box (either resizing the box or splitting the lines or ...)?

the box get the size of the sentence, so I'll split the sentence
in more lines.

That would be nice, thank you :slight_smile:

That was all, I have found so far ... :wink: Have a nice evening

Thanks a lot for your proof reading and suggestions :slight_smile:

You are welcome :slight_smile:
Have a nice day
Thomas.

#16

Hi :slight_smile:
Actually i made a typo in 3.  "There should not BE more..." ("be" in lower-case though.  I just wanted to emphasis my error).

It still looks clunky to me.  Perhaps rewrite it to something like;  
<quote>
Entries that look like they are duplicates will probably break the indexing display in the UI even if those entries come from different parts of the document.  
</quote>

Regards from 
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
I tend to dislike "must not" too.  It's soo authoritarian that it makes me want to go against it or to find out why not by experimentation.  I prefer things like;
should avoid
try not to
please don't 
it's worth avoiding ...  because ... 
and other such less definite equivalents.  Even better is if you can flip it around to say the positive instead.

3.  Looks clunky.  I do prefer the 3rd way of writing it but can now see the problem that Sophie was trying to avoid.  Perhaps 
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same contents in the help directory because it will break the index display in the help UI. 
</quote>
Perhaps instead of "contents" it might be better to use another word such as; text, value, errr i can't think of others but maybe Anne-ology might know a much better choice.

In 5 & 6 i agree with Sophie.  It is less elegant but is less likely to create confusion.  When a number of tags get combined (as in "-rin") it almost looks like a word that might need to be translated whereas separately they are clearly tags/options.  People probably wouldn't try to translate "-r -i -n".

There are tags that are entire words and those might need translating, for example with the rsync command there is "--partial" and "--progress" but
a)  Those have a double "-" sign
b)  Only translate if the under-laying OS is in a non-English language and only if the particular command has been translated
There are too many ifs there so it's probably worth avoiding those sorts of tags

7  "Escape character" might be written as "escaping character" without changing the meaning.  The grammar of the sentence might require an "ing", or else the term would need to be defined.  Devs and coders might have a more precise meaning for the term but i think the usage is sufficiently close and is readily understood by normal users without explanation.

General notes

It is good to learn about built-in help available on the command-line and easy to look-up without going off and opening a web-browser but i agree with Sophie that it is all really a subject for other books and faqs and there are plenty of them already!  People still don't know all about all this and there is no reason they should.  I hadn't known of "info" until this post so thanks for that! :slight_smile:  I generally use "--help" or "-h" to get a quick little "cheat sheet" or "quick reference card" about a command before running it.  For example

sed -h

The "man" pages give a LOT more detail but it's awkward to keep them open while typing on the command-line itself (unless you open it in a new windows or tab).  Also it took me ages to realise that it was a "vi" editor and that i could escape by using 
:q
before that i was a bit stuck because even "Ctrl c" wouldn't get me back to the command-line and i'd have to close the "terminal console" / "command-prompt window".  Now i know about ":q" it's easier for me.

man sed

Anyway, nicely done!  Especially with 3.  That was a good catch :slight_smile:  The other questions were good to find out about, discuss and agree a general policy about so that was all good too. :smiley:
Congrats and regards from 
Tom :slight_smile:

Hello Sophie, *,
[two new guides to Pootle]

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UI_and_Help_files_Content_Guide
<snip>

1. You have really often used "must not". I have changed some of
them to "have not to", "need not" or tried to circumvent them
otherwise ... :wink: But there are still a lot of them in the text,
so it would be nice, if someone has another look at it ... :wink:
I am not sure (my last English lesson is too far in the past,
sorry), but was it not mostly used in official texts, legal
instruments and the like?

I used 'must not' because it's a 'must not' :slight_smile:

O.K. Still ... Maybe we should either replace a couple of them to
"to have not to", "need not to" or the like, as it sounds a little
bit ... annoying IMHO ... :wink:

But I still have this ticking "you should not use 'must not' in
English texts" in the back of my head ... :wink:

2. Below "3.3 <bookmark_value></bookmark_value>" you wrote

<quote>
Sometimes it happens that the word in the sources has a different
meaning in English but not in your language, like header and
title. If you find such entry like
<bookmark_value>Header;Title</bookmark_value>, you can just
remove it from your translation, as it will have no effect.
</quote>
(first point below the grey box). Are you sure, that you really
can remove it? I seem to remember, that either Pootle will spit
out an error message or there will be a problem during compiling
LO (but I may be wrong here ... :wink: ).

Yes, I'm sure, I've already done it (and already broke the index
too :wink:

Ah, O.K. I did not want to test it, in case it breaks anything ...
:wink:

3. There is also

the following:

<quote>
There should not be two similar entries in the help directory
because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
. Should it not be
<quote>
There should not be the same entry more than one time in the help
directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
or
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same name in the
help directory because it will break the index display in the
help UI. </quote>
(or something like that ... :wink: ) instead?

For me it means the same, but if you prefer one over another,
please change it. Your last proposition however could be difficult
to understand, because 'name' is less precise.

O.K., but similar !=
same ... :wink:

<snip>

5. Same paragraph: Just out of interest: Why do you link to
Translate Toolkit's online documentation? Would it not be more
helpful to mention "man poterminoloy" or "info poterminology" and
the like?

I did so because most of the translators are not technical at all
and will prefer to read the help on a web page than on a terminal

O.K.

6. Thank you for "4.2 Using grep to find strings" :slight_smile: Some really
interesting information in it, nice :slight_smile: But why do you write every
option separatly? Like
<quote>
grep -r -i 'word' directory
</quote>
? You could also use
<quote>
grep -ri 'word' directory
</quote>
without any problem (or better say: /I/ can use it with grep 2.14
under Debian

Testing AMD64) ... :wink: The same applies to

<quote>
grep -r -i -n 'word' directory
</quote>
, which you can shorten to
<quote>
grep -rin 'word' directory
</quote>
... :wink:

same as above, I prefer they really understand what they do, so
step by step with one option separated from the others, when you
learn, it is easier to execute and remember. I could have given
only one command line with all the parameters explained below, but
when it's your first try, it is safe to do one thing after
another.

O.K.

7. Same place:
<quote>
If you have an escaping character in your search, like an
apostrophe (e.g. child's book in English or l'objet in French),
the simplest way to overcome that is to enclose the word

to

search with double quotes instead of single ones, like in this
example: </quote>
What do you mean with "escaping character" here? Did you not mean
"characters to escape"?

I mean an apostrophe, like I mentioned it, it is an escaping
character that will be interpreted when you don't want it.

Maybe I do understand you wrong here, but an apostrophe is an
punctuation mark (or diacritical mark, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe), whereas an escape
character would be a character, which is used in a shell, a program
or the like (there are also metacharacters, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacharacter ... :wink: ), as it it
explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_character ... :wink: I
have not heard "escaping character" before, but that does not mean
anything ... :wink:

8. The last sentence from "4.3 Using sed to modify your files":
<quote>
you will find more information on the gnu site about the
delimiters, the regular expressions and syntax.
</quote>
. Why do you link to the online version of the manpage from sed,
when it is installed on your system ;? And you could use "info
sed" as well to get additional information ... :wink:

same as above. My position here is to help people who have never
touched a terminal and they will feel more at ease reading out of
it.

O.K. Though I was really pleased, when I found out, that there is
such a nice "feature" like "man $program" or "info $program", and I
had not
to open a browser every time, when I had a problem with the
usage of a program ... :wink:

9. Some of the text of the grey boxes with the examples are too
long, when I view them with FF 27.0a1 (2013-10-12) under Debian
Testing AMD64 and using a display resolution of 1024x768 (like
the box with
<quote>
#1 Verify Impress is running \n
#2 For Bluetooth user, enable "Preferences"-"LibreOffice
Impress"-"General"-"Enable remote control"\n
#3 For WiFi user, tick
"Preferences"-"LibreOffice"-"Advanced"-"Enable Experimental
Features" \n
</quote>
, where the last part of the second line (l"\n") is outside of
the box ... :frowning: Is there a possibility to get the texts inside the
grey box (either resizing the box or splitting the lines or ...)?

the box get the size of the

sentence, so I'll split the sentence

in more lines.

That would be nice, thank you :slight_smile:

That was all, I have found so far ... :wink: Have a nice evening

Thanks a lot for your proof reading and suggestions :slight_smile:

You are welcome :slight_smile:
Have a nice day
Thomas.

#17

Hello Tom, *,

I tend to dislike "must not" too. It's soo authoritarian that it
makes me want to go against it or to find out why not by
experimentation. I prefer things like; should avoid try not to
please don't
it's worth avoiding ... because ...
and other such less definite equivalents. Even better is if you
can flip it around to say the positive instead.

just out of interest (as you have not written something about it):
What is usually used in English?

3. Looks clunky. I do prefer the 3rd way of writing it but can
now see the problem that Sophie was trying to avoid. Perhaps
<quote> There should not more than one entry with the same
contents in the help directory because it will break the index
display in the help UI. </quote> Perhaps instead of "contents" it
might be better to use another word such as; text, value, errr i
can't think of others but maybe Anne-ology might know a much
better choice.

Than I would prefer "with the same text" ... :wink:

In 5 & 6 i agree with Sophie. It is less elegant but is less
likely to create confusion. When a number of tags get combined
(as in "-rin") it almost looks like a word that might need to be
translated whereas separately they are clearly tags/options.
People probably wouldn't try to translate "-r -i -n".

Just out of interest: Why would you translate parameters, options
(and the like) of an command (or the name of it itself)?

There are tags that are entire words and those might need
translating,

Why? Usually the command itself as well as its parameter, options
and the like are – IIRC – never translated. It is something
completeley different with its help, manpages, info and the like,
but I may be wrong here ... :wink:

for example with the rsync command there is
"--partial" and "--progress" but a) Those have a double "-" sign
b) Only translate if the under-laying OS is in a non-English
language and only if the particular command has been translated
There are too many ifs there so it's probably worth avoiding those
sorts of tags

On my system (Debian Testing AMD64), neither of them is translated.
Also its help text is in English here, although I have installed
with locale "de_DE.UTF-8" ... :wink:

7 "Escape character" might be written as "escaping character"
without changing the meaning. The grammar of the sentence might
require an "ing", or else the term would need to be defined. Devs
and coders might have a more precise meaning for the term but i
think the usage is sufficiently close and is readily understood by
normal users without explanation.

O.K.

General notes

It is good to learn about built-in help available on the
command-line and easy to look-up without going off and opening a
web-browser but i agree with Sophie that it is all really a
subject for other books and faqs and there are plenty of them
already! People still don't know all about all this and there is
no reason they should. I hadn't known of "info" until this post
so thanks for that! :slight_smile:

You are welcome :slight_smile:

I generally use "--help" or "-h" to get a

Me too, but sometimes it is not that informative or misses some "use
case" examples ... And then I find "man $program" or "info program"
faster than switching to another workspace, start a browser (or if
it is started already, to open a new tab) ... :wink:

<snip>

The "man" pages give a LOT more detail but it's awkward to keep
them open while typing on the command-line itself (unless you open
it in a new windows or tab).

This is, how I do it: Try $program in one tab of konsole and if I
want to know something, I press <Ctrl>+<shift>+<T> to open a new
tab, enter "man $program" (or "info $program"), read through it (or
if I want to do something special, then I press "/" to search the
manpage, enter – say I want to find out, if it is possible to copy
something – "copy" and read it there ... :wink:

Also it took me ages to realise that
it was a "vi" editor and that i could escape by using
:q

He he, reminds me on my first experiences with the command line ...
:wink:

before that i was a bit stuck because even "Ctrl c" wouldn't get
me back to the command-line and i'd have to close the "terminal
console" / "command-prompt window". Now i know about ":q" it's
easier for me.

And do not forget ":wq" to save before closing ... :wink:

<snip>

Anyway, nicely done! Especially with 3. That was a good catch :slight_smile:

Thank you :slight_smile:
Thomas.

<Rest snipped and TOFU removed, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting>

#18

Hi :slight_smile:
Different people use different expressions but mostly people use quite a selection.  "Must be" is typically used by people in power (such as parents, my boss, the prime-minister etc) but who might lack the imagination to realise there might well be some other way that they haven't thought of.  "What is usually used?" is a bit like asking what the best distro is.  Each person has their own idea and those ideas might change from moment to moment.  It's hard to avoid being flippant when answering this sort of thing.

Also once i am "on a roll" and writing quickly i sometimes find i have repeated a word or phrase many times, sometimes even with a single sentence.  It's a bit like tripping over my own shoelaces in haste or finding i tied them together.  So it's not always arrogance that leads to that sort of thing.

3.  I quite like "with the same text".  It still avoids the problem Sophie made me aware of.  So;
<quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same text in the help directory because it will break the index display in the help UI.
</quote>
or the re-write i did later, or some variant of it.

Wrt tags/options and stuff.  I am disappointed to hear they are not translated and set by regionalisation.  For some reason i had assumed that people could use the command-line in their own language.

Regards from

Tom :slight_smile:

Hello Tom, *,

I tend to dislike "must not" too.  It's soo authoritarian that it
makes me want to go against it or to find out why not by
experimentation.  I prefer things like; should avoid try not to
please don't
it's worth avoiding ...  because ...
and other such less definite equivalents.  Even better is if you
can flip it around to say the positive instead.

just out of interest (as you have not written something about it):
What is usually used in English?

3.  Looks clunky.  I do prefer the 3rd way of writing it but can
now see the problem that Sophie was trying to avoid.  Perhaps
<quote> There should not more than one entry with the same
contents in the help directory because it will break the index
display in the help UI. </quote> Perhaps instead of "contents" it
might be better to use another word such as; text, value, errr i
can't think of others but maybe Anne-ology might know a much
better choice.

Than I would prefer "with the same text" ... :wink:

In 5 & 6 i agree with Sophie.  It is less elegant but is less
likely to create confusion.  When a number of tags get combined
(as in "-rin") it almost looks like a word that might need to be
translated whereas separately they are clearly tags/options.
People probably wouldn't try to translate "-r -i -n".

Just out of interest: Why would you translate parameters, options
(and the like) of an command (or the name of it itself)?

There are tags that are entire words and those might need
translating,

Why? Usually the command itself as well as its parameter, options
and the like are – IIRC – never translated. It is something
completely different with its help, manpages, info and the like,
but I may be wrong here ... :wink:

for example with the rsync command there is
"--partial" and "--progress" but a)  Those have a double "-" sign
b)  Only translate if the under-laying OS is in a non-English
language and only if the particular command has been translated
There are too many ifs there so it's probably worth avoiding those
sorts of tags

On my system (Debian Testing AMD64), neither of them is translated.
Also its help text is in English here, although I have installed
with locale "de_DE.UTF-8" ... :wink:

7  "Escape character" might be written as "escaping character"
without changing the meaning.  The grammar of the sentence might
require an "ing", or else the term would need to be defined.  Devs
and coders might have a more precise meaning for the term but i
think the usage is sufficiently close and is readily understood by
normal users without explanation.

O.K.

General notes

It is good to learn about built-in help available on the
command-line and easy to look-up without going off and opening a
web-browser but i agree with Sophie that it is all really a
subject for other books and faqs and there are plenty of them
already!  People still don't know all about all this and there is
no reason they should.  I hadn't known of "info" until this post
so thanks for that! :slight_smile:

You are welcome :slight_smile:

I generally use "--help" or "-h" to get a

Me too, but sometimes it is not that informative or misses some "use
case" examples ... And then I find "man $program" or "info program"
faster than switching to another workspace, start a browser (or if
it is started already, to open a new tab) ... :wink:

<snip>

The "man" pages give a LOT more detail but it's awkward to keep
them open while typing on the command-line itself (unless you open
it in a new windows or tab).

This is, how I do it: Try $program in one tab of konsole and if I
want to know something, I press <Ctrl>+<shift>+<T> to open a new
tab, enter "man $program" (or "info $program"), read through it (or
if I want to do something special, then I press "/" to search the
manpage, enter – say I want to find out, if it is possible to copy
something – "copy" and read it there ... :wink:

Also it took me ages to realise that
it was a "vi" editor and that i could escape by using
:q

He he, reminds me on my first experiences with the command line ...
:wink:

before that i was a bit stuck because even "Ctrl c" wouldn't get
me back to the command-line and i'd have to close the "terminal
console" / "command-prompt window".  Now i know about ":q" it's
easier for me.

And do not forget ":wq" to save before closing ... :wink:

<snip>

Anyway, nicely done!  Especially with 3.  That was a good catch :slight_smile:

Thank you :slight_smile:
Thomas.

<Rest snipped and TOFU removed, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting>

#19

Hello Tom, *,

Different people use different expressions but mostly people use
quite a selection. "Must be" is typically used by people in
power (such as parents, my boss, the prime-minister etc) but who
might lack the imagination to realise there might well be some
other way that they haven't thought of. "What is usually used?"
is a bit like asking what the best distro is. Each person has

hm, O.K. I was expecting something like "I have learned at school,
that..." or something like that ... :wink: My own search with DuckDuckGo
indicates, that "must not" is used in regulations, edicts (and the
like), or in prohibitions, bans (and the like) (see e.g.
http://english.lingolia.com/en/grammar/verbs/modal-verbs. If my
English is not that rusted, it seems to underpin my opinion ... :wink:
But that is only one of six or seven sites, which I have skimmed
through (in German as well as in English ... :wink: ).

their own idea and those ideas might change from moment to moment.
It's hard to avoid being flippant when answering this sort of
thing.

O.K.

Also once i am "on a roll" and writing quickly i sometimes find i
have repeated a word or phrase many times, sometimes even with a
single sentence. It's a bit like tripping over my own shoelaces
in haste or finding i tied them together. So it's not always
arrogance that leads to that sort of thing.

O.K.

3. I quite like "with the same text". It still avoids the
problem Sophie made me aware of. So; <quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same text in the
help directory because it will break the index display in the help
UI. </quote> or the re-write i did later, or some variant of it.

O.K.

Wrt tags/options and stuff. I am disappointed to hear they are
not translated and set by regionalisation. For some reason i had
assumed that people could use the command-line in their own
language.

Well, I think, it is the same problem as with our project: You need
the people, who are willing to translate it. If there are none, the
commands as well as their help, manpages, info sides are left in
English (which I prefer instead of having in a language, I am
neither able to read or write) ... :wink:
Thank you for your information
Thomas.

<Rest snipped and TOFU removed, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting>

#20

Hi :slight_smile:
Ahh, good point.  The result from DuckDuckGo (which i also often use even when i say i "google it", (just to make sure the MS one doesn't become the generic term and then get copyrighted)) does make sense and explains my policy of either avoiding it or trying to dodge around it.

The link didn't work until i delete the full stop.  I generally ignore normal rules of grammar and such-like when handing out url or email addresses.    2 lines were a bit dodgy
"He shall take over his father’s car repair shop in the future."
It just looks likely to cause problems and is "tempting fate".  If i wrote something like that the poor kid would probably get knocked down by a double-decker bus within a week and i'd be blaming myself for years.  Also it looks wrong nowadays.  I think now it would be more normal to see "will" or "hopes to" but never "shall" and i don't really know why not.  Sometimes you just have to try it and leave it to other people to correct if there really is any weird unknowable problem with it.  The aim is "release early and release often" and NOT perfection 100% of the time.  Perfection seems to evolve later.

Anyway, i think you have solved the problem
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hello Tom, *,

Different people use different expressions but mostly people use
quite a selection.  "Must be" is typically used  by people in
power (such as parents, my boss, the prime-minister etc) but who
might lack the imagination to realise there might well be some
other way that they haven't thought of.  "What is usually used?"
is a bit like asking what the best distro is.  Each person has

hm, O.K. I was expecting something like "I have learned at school,
that..." or something like that ... :wink: My own search with DuckDuckGo
indicates, that "must not" is used in regulations, edicts (and the
like), or in prohibitions, bans (and the like) (see e.g.
http://english.lingolia.com/en/grammar/verbs/modal-verbs. If my
English is not that rusted, it seems to underpin my opinion ... :wink:
But that is only one of six or seven sites, which I have skimmed
through (in German as well as in English ... :wink: ).

their own idea and those ideas might change from moment to moment.
  It's hard to avoid being flippant when answering this sort of
thing.

O.K.

Also once i am "on a roll" and writing quickly i sometimes find i
have repeated a word or phrase many times, sometimes even with a
single sentence.  It's a bit like tripping over my own shoelaces
in haste or finding i tied them together.  So it's not always
arrogance that leads to that sort of thing.

O.K.

3.  I quite like "with the same text".  It still avoids the
problem Sophie made me aware of.  So; <quote>
There should not more than one entry with the same text in the
help directory because it will break the index display in the help
UI. </quote> or the re-write i did later, or some variant of it.

O.K.

Wrt tags/options and stuff.  I am disappointed to hear they are
not translated and set by regionalisation.  For some reason i had
assumed that people could use the command-line in their own
language.

Well, I think, it is the same problem as with our project: You need
the people, who are willing to translate it. If there are none, the
commands as well as their help, manpages, info sides are left in
English (which I prefer instead of having in a language, I am
neither able to read or write) ... :wink:
Thank you for your information
Thomas.

<Rest snipped and TOFU removed, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting>