issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

l10n
#1

Hi all,
So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to stop a release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's corrupting documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it doesn't make it in 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is next month. What I really don't like is the poor quality it renders for our translation.
Kind regards
Sophie
-------- Message original --------
Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
Pour : Sophie <gautier.sophie@gmail.com>
Copie à : libreoffice-dev <libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org>

Hi Sophie, *,

I've seen this patch
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

correcting this issue for French
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made by
the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)

I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.

(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.

The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
modified.
Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
up on the l10n list?

after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
, the following languages still have the problem:

egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"

kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
the strings are the same.

List of languages:

be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid tg ug

ciao
Christian

#2

I do believe that l10n language leaders should have a right to veto
the release in certain language (i.e. yes, you can have 4.1.0, but
without French packages etc.).
So the first release gets released, but no damage is made to a certain
language community.

Lp, m.

#3

Read whole bug report and still not sure what should I do here.
Heading = Naslov
Title = Naslov

So both words translate same in croatian and I guess that is part of problem??
I can try to change translation on one of those strings but it will look bad in UI.

Even if I change it, RC3 is out and 4.1 full will probably be released from RC3 so translations won't be picked up at all until 4.1.1 RC1.

Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 22.7.2013. 22:22, Sophie je napisao:

#4

Hi Mihovil,

Read whole bug report and still not sure what should I do here.
Heading = Naslov
Title = Naslov

You must keep the previous translation for Heading (4.0 and 4.1beta1 was ok) and find another one for Title. For French, we have moved to [Main Title] to differentiate it from [Heading].

So both words translate same in croatian and I guess that is part of
problem??

yes, for all of us

I can try to change translation on one of those strings but it will look
bad in UI.

The problem is that it will corrupt the styles in the document and user may lose some data.

Even if I change it, RC3 is out and 4.1 full will probably be released
from RC3 so translations won't be picked up at all until 4.1.1 RC1.

Yes, as I said, I'm not happy with that.
Cheers
Sophie

#5

I do believe that l10n language leaders should have a right to veto
the release in certain language (i.e. yes, you can have 4.1.0, but
without French packages etc.).

Yes I agree with you

So the first release gets released, but no damage is made to a certain
language community.

Well, I don't like it in fact, I want my language to be part of the release party :wink: So I prefer we be all together to release our version.

Kind regards
Sophie

#6

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like "*, main one".
You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root node for the headings settings.

-Yury

...

I can try to change translation on one of those
strings but it will look bad in UI.

...

#7

Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy so I know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation "Naslov".

Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 23.7.2013. 7:48, Yury Tarasievich je napisao:

#8

Hi Yury, *,

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like "*, main one".
You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root node for
the headings settings.

Yes, but "main one" is misleading and IMHO wrong.
You are right that this style usually is not applied, as it is the
basic style for the headings, i.e. the one where you can set common
formatting of your headings, without having to do the changes in every
"heading <level>" style.

The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title.

Headings are the styles for creating a hierarchy, usually with subitems.

ciao
Christian

#9

Hi *,

Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy so I
know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation "Naslov".

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Zaglavlje"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"

ciao
Christian

#10

The change I suggested sounds better in, well, East Slavonic languages.

Come to think of it, and thanks for reminding, the *_TITEL one also might be usefully expanded to smth. like "Showname of the document".

-Yury

Hi Yury, *,

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like "*, main one".
You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root node for
the headings settings.

Yes, but "main one" is misleading and IMHO wrong.

...

#11

Well now we have "Zaglavlje" for "Header", it's not a syle and maybe it can be reused for styles to but we try to be consistent in terminology, I like Mihovil's solution more. Think that "Zaglavlje" is not a way to go.

Kruno

#12

Kruno had better suggestion:
"Header style" insted of Header, so insted of Naslov, now it's "Stil naslova" which isn't incorrect and will not confuse users.

Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 23.7.2013. 10:05, Krunoslav Šebetić je napisao:

#13

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it be a good idea to change the English string from Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it Main Title in English?

The string Title is used a lot in the UI and at it seems that other languages than Swedish has the problem that we need to translate the word differently in different places.

If the string was called Main Title this problem would not have crept in (at least not in my language).

It's probably a bit late to change it for 4.1 but does anybody see a reason not to change it for 4.2?

/Niklas

PS. I'm sorry for sending this twice to you Sophie, pressed the wrong button and sent it directly to you before. :frowning:

#14

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of "Heading Base Style".

-Yury

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...

#15

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base style of the headings, it's rather the document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading could we run into trouble if we change the name?

If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then what about other styles that serve as "base styles"?
For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal styles includes Text body, Table Contents.

Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

#16

Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
2) Title -> Document title

And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles might be changed on the lines of (1), too. Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, such change would quite an undertaking, as the basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. I don't see it happening...

-Yury

#17

Hi ~:)
Errr, not sure if this is relevant but the Docs Team have talked about getting rid of all their non-standard 'newly' named styles and get right back down to just using the defaults.  The 'new' ones have names such as "ooo-heading1" so you can see why i'm being a bit sarcastic about the word "new"!  However their team is not large enough to do more than just work through the official user guides so i don't see anything that radical happening any time soon.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#18

Hi :slight_smile:
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular language has had it's translations broken or corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of "French" was a bit daft because the French translation is always excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good example of when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option "written up" as a rule might encourage the very problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#19

Hi :slight_smile:
Ah, i didn't realise this thread was about a particular problem that has happened!

Please ignore my previous posts in this thread!
Apols and regards from
Tom :

#20

Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement list and worn translator to check their translations and then pool fixed translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all languages can get valid (the bug free) release?