issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

l10n
#21

Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
2) Title -> Document title

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.

Regards

#22

Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a message.

If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?

Regards

#23

2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić <kruno0407@gmail.com <mailto:kruno0407@gmail.com>>

        Hi :slight_smile:
        I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a
        particular language has had it's translations broken or
        corrupted in some way. Obviously the example of "French" was
        a bit daft because the French translation is always excellent.
         However, it's difficult to see a good example of when a veto
        might be needed or might have been good. You always seem to
        fix any problems. Perhaps having a formal veto option
        "written up" as a rule might encourage the very problem it's
        trying to forestall?
        Regards from
        Tom :slight_smile:

    Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement
    list and worn translator to check their translations and then pool
    fixed translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all
    languages can get valid (the bug free) release?

Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a message.

If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?

I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.

Also:

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.

I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about that, it can not be translated the same.

We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

#24

It just can be two identical strings in same part/feature of the same module of LO, maybe in different parts, features or modules, but can't have two the same heading titles. I'm not sure is that even a bug...

#25

I disagree: why is it our fault? Shouldn't LibreOffice handle styles
in a translation-agnostic way in the first place?

#26

I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.

Also:

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.

I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
that, it can not be translated the same.

But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
we fix?

#27

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The "Title->Name of the document" variant might also be considered for (2).

-Yury

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
    Actually, I mean changing both:
    1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
    2) Title -> Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
"Heading" and "Title" my proposal is change only
"Title" to "Document Title". The other should
stay as is.

...

#28

I have a solution.

PO files do have a comment field.

This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
files are the true base.

So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).

Lp, m.

#29

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The "Title->Name of the document" variant might also be considered for (2).

I don´t think so as Christian explained:

"The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title."

So if this is document title, it´s not de document name. That might even be
confuse because of I also understand "Name of document" as "Filename".

Regards

#30

I have a solution.

PO files do have a comment field.

This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
files are the true base.

So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).

Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
need to change. To add those comments we need to review strings and know
what they are used for.

I must say even tough I´m fluent in English, I don´t use all suite so I
really can´t tell which one are fine or not.

Nor do I have the ability to produce code cause I´m not a developer.

What I can do is spot when some string is wrong and propose a correction
but also as bug report and not coding.

Regards

#31

Hi Sérgio, *,

Why was there no announcement when getting the changes from pootle?
→ because there was no check that triggered a warning. Also there was
no merge-conflict, as the problem is not with the translated strings,
but how they are used.

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.

Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
need to change.

No need for change was always there - but probably nobody complained
for that language. This time round, large language communities were
affected that did spot the inconsistency. So call it luck that the
bigger groups did make that mistake to take this problem into focus.

> [...]
> But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
> we fix?

I thought this was pretty clear: You must not use the same string for
those two IDs. The Heading style must have a different translation
than then Title style.

>> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

At least nobody did spot that problem in all the time where the
strings were the same for over 30 languages...

ciao
Christian

#32

Would such comment be a solution, really?

For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost, if slowly.

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?

-Yury

...

#33

Would such comment be a solution, really?

I don't know, we find the bug because we use the same set of docs during the tests of FR versions. Then we narrow that the EN version was ok and the bug appears between beta1 and beta2 and was present in other languages. So may be yes, having some comments in the po file would help to not propagate that sort of error.

For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost,
if slowly.

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?

The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or as a repository.
Kind regards
Sophie

#34

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad. That string (being the label for the 1st field on the 2nd tab 'Description' in Document properties) is too vague in its purpose and use, anyway. And it seems it's a rudiment from times of restrictive filenames, never set deliberately.

-Yury

#35

...

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the
root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?

The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or
as a repository.

Yes, us for one. :slight_smile: That's why I'm asking: what is the definitive source for the English strings and their context? E.g., in the pre-split days there was SDF root source and POT fileset was a derivative.

-Yury

#36

A pot file can contain an English/source comment, a po file keeps that
comment and can add/edit a localized version or comment to that
comment.
So I think that would be the solution for those few tricky strings.

I just hope that when pot files are generated they would also get the
comment from the code i.e. the comment for pot file should be included
with the original string in the code. Someone correct me if I am
wrong.

Lp, m.

#37

SDF is deprecated - POT files are generated directly from code, and PO
files are directly checked back into code.

Lp, m.

#38

So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?

-Yury

#39

I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.

#40

No - in this context "Name of the document" is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.

ciao
Christian